Prototype RF-coupled 4x5 camera

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Originally Posted by aly324

If realized, this would be an RF-*coupled*, interchangeable lens handheld camera. The examples listed are much bulkier or not coupled. The Razzy and Chamonix Polaroid conversions are kind of close in terms of how you can shoot them.

"Overpriced" is a strange accusation to lob at a prototype that doesn't have a price.

Not like I have skin in the game, but like Corran I find the kneejerk dismissal pretty bizarre. If anything we should all applaud this young designer's efforts. But I agree he shouldn't be going around claiming firsts.

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Your first line describes the Wista RF.

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Originally Posted by Bob Salomon

Your first line describes the Wista RF.

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Bob, once you've added a lens and inserted a film holder, the Wista 45RF weighs more than 7 pounds. A Master Technika with grip and multifocus finder is even heavier, and even bare-bones without the grip and with a wire-frame finder it's about the same as the Wista. I've used my Master Technika hand-held, so I know exactly what that feels like. A late-model top-RF Graphic is just a bit lighter - I've used one of those hand-held too - but good luck equipping one with a set of modern lenses with matching cams.

If this guy can somehow deliver a camera that supports RF-coupled interchangeable lenses but shaves a few pounds off the weight of a 45RF or MT, it will offer a unique value proposition and be an option well worth having. I think that's a big challenge and I'm a bit skeptical, but I wish him well and will be delighted if he succeeds.

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Originally Posted by Oren Grad

Bob, once you've added a lens and inserted a film holder, the Wista 45RF weighs more than 7 pounds. A Master Technika with grip and multifocus finder is even heavier, and even bare-bones without the grip and with a wire-frame finder it's about the same as the Wista. I've used my Master Technika hand-held, so I know exactly what that feels like. A late-model top-RF Graphic is just a bit lighter - I've used one of those hand-held too - but good luck equipping one with a set of modern lenses with matching cams.

If this guy can somehow deliver a camera that supports RF-coupled interchangeable lenses but shaves a few pounds off the weight of a 45RF or MT, it will offer a unique value proposition and be an option well worth having. I think that's a big challenge and I'm a bit skeptical, but I wish him well and will be delighted if he succeeds.

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This guy is under the delusion that a single window RF/viewfinder is unique.
He might be a designer but he doesn’t know what has been available for decades in main stream 45 rangefinder 45 cameras like the RF.

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Originally Posted by Bob Salomon

This guy is under the delusion that a single window RF/viewfinder is unique.

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That basic specification is not unique, but there's still room to deliver a variation on the theme that offers distinctive value. For example, as I just mentioned, weight is one area where a product could be differentiated in a way that has real benefit for the user. Or perhaps he could deliver the interchangeable lens functionality at a lower price - it's now very costly to have a set of lenses cammed for a Technika.

If he gets to the point of being able to show a working prototype we can judge it on its own merits.

Hear hear, Oren!

Let it go Bob!

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Originally Posted by Bob Salomon

This guy is under the delusion that a single window RF/viewfinder is unique.
He might be a designer but he doesn’t know what has been available for decades in main stream 45 rangefinder 45 cameras like the RF.

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It might not be unique considering the history.

But it is unique NOW. AFAIK there hasn't been an interchangeable lens 4x5 camera with RF made this century. Certainly not one where you have NOT to unfold the camera, put the lens into place, set it at the right position, faff about with the cams (if you have or can have them made) and load directly 3 sheets with transport between them by a simple means. One that you can pull out of the bag, take the lenscap off, focus and shoot with.

I have a Wista and it is a pain to use. I'm not convinced by his film magazine but the rest is nice to me. 3D printed lens cone is fine for prototyping but I'd like a milled/turned/carbon fibre one for production. Ideally, I'd like vertical movements, a build in light meter and an electronic shutter. Can't win them all.

Icing on the cake would be data printing on the negative. ;)

Some perspective: the two RF-coupled 4x5 cameras available right now cost about $9.900 (Wista RF) to $13,000 (Linhof Master Technika Classic). This is just the camera, no cams (or viewfinder on the Linhof, another $2,300 to even see what you are shooting!).

These designs have largely not been iterated on for decades and decades. And really, the Linhof has been basically unchanged for almost a century, in terms of the RF mechanism.

There was also the Polaroid 110B, released in 1960 for $172.50, with a combined VF/RF that many use today in conversions. That is just over $1,500 adjusted for inflation. Yes, it only worked with the built-in Ysarex lens, but others have adapted it for a variety of lenses around that focal length.

With modern manufacturing techniques and innovations, perhaps this project has potential to put another option in the marketplace. With other options costing as much as they do, there's certainly a lot of room in terms of price-point...

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Originally Posted by Corran

Some perspective: the two RF-coupled 4x5 cameras available right now cost about $9.900 (Wista RF) to $13,000 (Linhof Master Technika Classic). This is just the camera, no cams (or viewfinder on the Linhof, another $2,300 to even see what you are shooting!).

These designs have largely not been iterated on for decades and decades. And really, the Linhof has been basically unchanged for almost a century, in terms of the RF mechanism.

There was also the Polaroid 110B, released in 1960 for $172.50, with a combined VF/RF that many use today in conversions. That is just over $1,500 adjusted for inflation. Yes, it only worked with the built-in Ysarex lens, but others have adapted it for a variety of lenses around that focal length.

With modern manufacturing techniques and innovations, perhaps this project has potential to put another option in the marketplace. With other options costing as much as they do, there's certainly a lot of room in terms of price-point...

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For just 3 lenses, no movements, no macro, etc.. and the back takes just 3 sheets of film! Progress?

Please let me know how many folks are using movements or trying to shoot macro with handheld 4x5. Interchangeable magazine is a debatable point but plenty of folks are using standard film holders with only 2 sheets. Oh and with a Grafmatic my 4x5 Linhof back makes it very difficult to see through the RF, btw, due to the thickness...

Also please let me know any other 4x5 RF that can use multiple lenses without changing a cam? Oh wait there is none.

You don't work for the distributor anymore, you really don't have to slavishly defend these products.

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Originally Posted by Corran

Please let me know how many folks are using movements or trying to shoot macro with handheld 4x5. Interchangeable magazine is a debatable point but plenty of folks are using standard film holders with only 2 sheets. Oh and with a Grafmatic my 4x5 Linhof back makes it very difficult to see through the RF, btw, due to the thickness...

Also please let me know any other 4x5 RF that can use multiple lenses without changing a cam? Oh wait there is none.

You don't work for the distributor anymore, you really don't have to slavishly defend these products.

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The Wista RF comes with a Tri lobed cam installed. No cam to buy for the lenses. It’s crammed for.
Hand held macro might not be common on 45 but movements and the use of macro is common for most 45 users. Hand held, not so much today. The vast majority of 45 users usually have 1 camera. Not a closet full. So most users would probably select versatility that grows with them rather then a very limited snap sot modern 45.