Internal reflection in Zone VI 4x5

Hi,

I'm looking for help dealing with what I think is a reflection in my recently acquired Zone VI 4x5. There is a straight, rather sharp dark line (on the negative and appears as a bright line in the positive) parallel to the short edge of the sheet at the dark slide (left) end of the holder (see photo). It's always straight and the full width of the sheet. Taking the gg holder off the back of the camera all the area where the film holder slides in is shiny and the edge of the film opening next to the groove where the holder locks in is especially shiny. I'm thinking that there is a reflection from this rounded area that's making the line on the negative. This is seen in more than one film holder, though I've been almost exclusively using newish Riteway holders lately. It hasn't appeared on all negatives, but seems to be more frequently in the last 10-or-so sheets. My question is, what is the best thing to put on these shiny wood surfaces to remove the reflection that won't also flake off onto the negative? Will flat black paint rub off and produce a powder onto the film? Will a v. dark wood stain reduce the reflections enough? (As you can tell, I'm not a wood worker.)

Thanks for any suggestions.
Attachment 188534

I don't think I'm the only one that overlaps all that garbage around the edges of the negative image on the easel blades to crop it out of the final image. Does your groundglass even image that area?

You can get paint pens that are used to touch up furniture. They look like a Sharpie.

krylon ultra flat black paint.
spray some into a cup n use a small sable brush to apply it evenly.

https://www.filmtools.com/krylon-ult...ray-paint.html

check the neg carefully to be sure its not a scratch?

That looks like a scratch to me. Or maybe something in the development or something else. It could be a scanner issue too. Make sure you can see it on the physical film, and not just on the scans of it. A light leak will almost always have a soft edge, since the light falling onto the film isn't focused like the light coming through the lens. That looks like a pretty hard and thin line to my eye, and doesn't look like any light leak I've seen. I could be wrong though.

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Originally Posted by jim10219

That looks like a scratch to me. Or maybe something in the development or something else. It could be a scanner issue too. Make sure you can see it on the physical film, and not just on the scans of it. A light leak will almost always have a soft edge, since the light falling onto the film isn't focused like the light coming through the lens. That looks like a pretty hard and thin line to my eye, and doesn't look like any light leak I've seen. I could be wrong though.

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I fully agree. This doesn't look like any light leak I have ever encountered. Do you seethe line on the negative,or just on the scans? Use a loupe and examine the negative.

My Zone VI had a similar issue. I fixed it with a Sharpie (I think- it was decades ago). Take the back off the camera and put a holder in place. Remove the dark slide and take a good look for where the light might be reflecting. I'd be more specific, but the camera is packed away for moving right now and I can't get at it.

Flat black spray paint. Mask the area well and give a light coat. For small spots, a Sharpie works too, but it's not really flat.

However, don't discount the possibility that the reflection is coming from an edge of the filmholder and not your camera (which is what your photo looks like to me). I lightly sand all the edges on my filmholders to prevent this.

Best,

Doremus

Spray paint scares me to digital. A Sharpie is flat enough.

for god sakes, use your head. dont spray the area to be covered!

spray some paint in a cup n use a small sable brush to apply an even coat as i said in my original reply.

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Originally Posted by Paul Ron

krylon ultra flat black paint.
spray some into a cup n use a small sable brush to apply it evenly.

https://www.filmtools.com/krylon-ult...ray-paint.html

check the neg carefully to be sure its not a scratch?

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Originally Posted by Bruce Barlow

Spray paint scares me to digital. A Sharpie is flat enough.

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A Sharpie works fine for small spots. Spraying into a small cup and using a brush for small areas works fine too, and you have your choice of paints and colors. One can get small bottles of paint as well. However, a bit of spray paint on a larger surface does wonders sometimes.

Nothing to be afraid of with normal spray paints. Work in a well-ventilated area (wear a ventilator if you're paranoid), mask the area carefully so no spray or overspray gets on surfaces it's not intended for, shake the can well beforehand, spray a small test area (I usually use the newspaper I'm masking with) and then just spray lightly over what needs to be painted.

I've re-sprayed the inside of the back of my Zone VI camera, several homemade lensboards, and the scratched up septums on numerous filmholders. Great results, no problems ever. I use Rustoleum flat black mostly.

All that said, I still think the OP's problem is a reflection from a shiny surface on the filmholder, which would require no paint at all, just a bit of fine sandpaper.

Best,

Doremus

I use these a lot, they are pretty much just a felt-tip paint pen. You can get them in flat and glossy black.

https://stevemidgleyphotography.com/Untitled-3.8

Thanks for the replies. I isn't a scratch on the film, it has appeared on several sheets in different holders and it doesn't extend into the film outside the image area (why I included the frame). The emulsion is intact the whole length of the line. The line is on the negative itself. The edges are not sharp but the line is very narrow. I don't think it's a light leak in the normal sense as it's at a slightly different location on the sheets and some don't have it at all.
I had thought of flat paint but my concern is that since this is where the holder slides in won't the holders rub the paint off? And where with this paint powder go?
Keith, the paint pens you mention, are they paint or some kind of stain? I would really like to find something that can't rub off.

Doremus,
I will look at the edges of the film holders for area where it could be reflecting. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Jim Palmer

Thanks for the replies. I isn't a scratch on the film, it has appeared on several sheets in different holders and it doesn't extend into the film outside the image area (why I included the frame). The emulsion is intact the whole length of the line. The line is on the negative itself. The edges are not sharp but the line is very narrow. I don't think it's a light leak in the normal sense as it's at a slightly different location on the sheets and some don't have it at all.
I had thought of flat paint but my concern is that since this is where the holder slides in won't the holders rub the paint off? And where with this paint powder go?
Keith, the paint pens you mention, are they paint or some kind of stain? I would really like to find something that can't rub off.

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Jim,

Take a look at the back of your camera from the inside. Remove the back from the camera and insert the filmholder. You'll see that any surfaces that could reflect light onto the film are not in contact with the holder at all. To paint these surfaces, I would insert a piece of scrap cardboard or the like in place of the filmholder, mask around the area to be sprayed and tape newspaper all around the masked area so that you have at leas a 3-foot square of paper to collect overspray, leaving just what you need painted in a hole in the middle (think surgery draping). Then just spray a light coat of your favorite flat black paint.

Do sand your holders. It's usually the 45° bevel that is the culprit here. If you have this line from a lot of holders, sand them all. I use 600-grit wet/dry paper and sand very lightly; just enough to knock down the gloss.

Vaughn's flat-black felt-tipped marker looks cool for small spots; I'm going to get one.

Best,

Doremus

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Originally Posted by scm

I use these a lot, they are pretty much just a felt-tip paint pen. You can get them in flat and glossy black.

https://stevemidgleyphotography.com/Untitled-3.8

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Me too Steve and I have for years. Most always have a few laying around in both flat & glossy.

FYI If you slide the tip out of the pen and pour (I use a turkey injector or some type of syringe fill syringe up w/) well shaken tester model paint (flat/glossy)or similar enamel paint then slide the tip back in place. I test out the pen to make sure it's feeding the tip (always does) then put cap on tightly & ready for another year of service while saving you 7 bucks pop from brick & mortar. The tip is really only good for 1-2 refill but it still doubles your millage before it gives up the ghost.

To check for surfaces that can reflect inside camera, remove GG frame, put camera on steady mounting turn off room lights, lens on, shutter open, sit behind camera and have someone (or attach to a stand) a very bright flashlight that is aimed off - axis toward lens so it would be only in the outer part of the IC... Look carefully at all the flat surfaces inside camera on the opposite side of where the light is shining to see if any of the surfaces inside have a slight glow, as these can be areas that might reflect to film area... These are areas that can be treated...

Just blackening sometimes does not work, because the surface of some finishes can reflect light like a mirror, so there's other options... Sometimes velvet or felt, plush ribbons, or I like fine grooved thin materials that can be attached break up the reflected light don't trap dust or lint...

But I think the more likely culprit is a light leak somewhere, or a possible processing or film loading or storage issue (like a film box that was slightly open or not closed properly)...

All it takes is a little light leak somewhere during the process, and you film will remember it well...

Steve K

My Nagaoka 4x5 had some internal reflection off the edges inside the back that gave a line on a couple of negatives, though not as sharp a line as you're seeing. I got some adhesive-backed black flocking of the sort used by telescope makes and stuck some small strips on the offending areas. So far, so good several years on, but I do check them from time to time just in case the adhesive is considering letting go.

The very best flat back. Apply with brush or Q-tip.

If it was a light leak or internal reflection, the line wouldn't be as sharp and focused as it is.
If you're scanning your negatives, make sure that the startup calibration area of the CCD sensor is clean.

https://www.culturehustleusa.com/pro...t-art-material

This stuff works for a lot of things. Should do the trick on any reflective surfaces inside the camera.