Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images

I was doing some film/developer testing today, and I thought some of you might enjoy a comparison between Standard camera film and Xray film shot in a camera. The Fomapan 200 shot was on 5x7, exposed at an ISO of 100 and developed for 4.5 minutes in Xtol straight in deep tank. The X-ray shot was shot on 8x10 Blue Sensitive Xray film exposed at an ISO of 200 and developed in Xtol straight for 4 minutes in deep tank. These are not meant to be "art" rather they are just exposure and tone examples. The first thumbnail on the left is the Fomapan 200.

Nice work Gene!

I have been messing with green sensitive x-ray film. I have attached an early 8x10 image which was developed in D76 1:3 for about six minutes. As perhaps you can see from the scan, I didn't manage to completely tame the contrast with this developer, so following Chris Nze and Jim Galli's advice, I switched to Rodinal. I am currently developing green sensitive Xray film (50 ISO) for Kallitypes in Rodinal 1:200 for about six minutes. This is working very well for me, and at 58¢ a sheet for 11x14 I really can't complain!

Unfortunately I can't scan my more recent work since since they are all 11x14 and larger than my scanner...

That's the first xray film I've seen with square corners, what I've seen (not all that much, just a few boxes from Freestyle years ago) had rounded corners. And your results are much better than mine, I couldn't get the contrast than you've gotten.

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Originally Posted by Brian Ellis

That's the first xray film I've seen with square corners, what I've seen (not all that much, just a few boxes from Freestyle years ago) had rounded corners. And your results are much better than mine, I couldn't get the contrast than you've gotten.

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My boxes of film have round corners on the films, but I cropped my scan to just the image, as my tape I tape the neg down to the scanner glass would show otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Jason Greenberg Motamedi

Nice work Gene!

I have been messing with green sensitive x-ray film. I have attached an early 8x10 image which was developed in D76 1:3 for about six minutes. As perhaps you can see from the scan, I didn't manage to completely tame the contrast with this developer, so following Chris Nze and Jim Galli's advice, I switched to Rodinal. I am currently developing green sensitive Xray film (50 ISO) for Kallitypes in Rodinal 1:200 for about six minutes. This is working very well for me, and at 58¢ a sheet for 11x14 I really can't complain!

Unfortunately I can't scan my more recent work since since they are all 11x14 and larger than my scanner...

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Your image of the mother and child is incredible, such beautiful tones from Xray film. What film did you use (Brand and type of Xray film). Maybe the green sensitive has better tonality in general?

Thanks Gene. It is the no-name green sensitive film from http://www.cxsonline.com/ I think it is the same as all the other no-name brands (physician's choice or what not), made by Konica in the US.

I have never used the blue sensitive, although may well buy a box sometime soon just to try it. I have been pretty happy with the tonality, it isn't "real" film, but for the price it is an incredible bargain. With 11x14 I was always wondering if the image was worth the price of the film, which really curtails experimentation. I can now use about ten sheets of xray film for one sheet of Efke.

My only issue right now is that the film seems to be a fingerprint and water mark magnet. Have you had this issue Gene?

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Originally Posted by Jason Greenberg Motamedi

Thanks Gene.

My only issue right now is that the film seems to be a fingerprint and water mark magnet. Have you had this issue Gene?

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I have found that the film is very delicate. I process on film hangers, so I don't actually touch the film until I take it off the hanger to go into the Photo-flo. I then wipe the film down with photo sponges that have been saturated with photo-flo. I don't have any particular problems with defects, that way, although I did get quite a few emulsion scratches when I tried to cut some down to 5x7. I think I could overcome that also.

Okay you guys, now I have to decide which one to get. Green or blue? I agree that if I can use this for my 11x14 work it would be great. I usually shoot for high contrast neg's for my carbon printing. If I can get 100 sheets of this film for .58 cents I could shoot a lot more 11x14 or 8x10 for that matter.
Jason, are you using Jim Galli's Rodinal formula from his website or is it just diluted 1:200? I develop all of my film in tanks with hangers. I have a system for 11x14 in hangers and I have to test it out. Uses a lot of chemicals but I am currently using Pyrocat-HD which is very inexpensive.

I never had much luck with Jim Galli's formula which was developed for graphic arts films, not Xray. I tried a few other low contrast developers including POTA and another whose name escapes me. The contrast was always way too low for my purposes and the tonalities were weird. I had good luck with Rodinal 1:100 (four minutes for a DR of 1.4) and Rodinal 1:200 (six minutes for a DR of 1.4) with no additives. Assuming I am doing 11x14 @1:200 I put 1L of water into a tray and swish the neg around for one minute. I then add the other liter of water with 10ml Rodinal and develop with CONSTANT motion for four to 12 minutes, depending on contrast. The film scratches very easily, so be careful! Also, since these films have emulsions on both sides you must be sure that all parts of both sides receive equal amounts of developer, otherwise you will have weird marks on the rear. I develop exposed emulsion up and to ensure that the rear emulsion is developed I use a flat bottom tray. A dimpled or ribbed bottom can leave weird marks. A hardening fixer is very helpful and it fixes in about one minute.

One main difference I know between the films is that the high-speed blue is about 200 ISO while the ortho green is 50 ISO. Of couse, the color sensitivity is also different, but this is probably mostly an aesthetic choice.

I would suggest trying mamography film. It comes in odd sizes but its single coated on one side and fairly durable. I use it in special xray applications and find kodak and agfa to be finer grain than traditional double coated film. I need more contrast in what I do and run it in D19 1:1 and have used HC110 1:31 with good results. You also might try industrial fray film. I think most are single coated and come in sizes that might work well for pano cameras.

I have used up my first pack of blue sensitive 8x10 x-ray film (CXS Online high speed blue). I cut it down to 4x5, rated it at 100 and developed it in Diafine diluted 1:1 in a rotary processor. The diluted Diafine and rotary processing really makes it quite usable, contrast-wise. I have 2 images posted over in the APUG gallery if you want to see how they look in Diafine. I have printed and scanned them and it reminds me a lot of Tri-X, except a lot slower.

It does scratch easily when wet, but once dry, the emulsion is quite hard. I spent 8 years as an x-ray technician in a large veterinary hospital and the utensil of choice by people reading x-rays seemed to be ballpoint pens - - they would crease the film base but the emulsion stayed put.

Anyone tried developing in a Jobo? I'm interested in trying some in 8x10 and/or 5x12 but do all of my processing right now via Jobo with Pyrocat HD. I could order some Rodinal though ...

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Originally Posted by jbannow

Anyone tried developing in a Jobo? I'm interested in trying some in 8x10 and/or 5x12 but do all of my processing right now via Jobo with Pyrocat HD. I could order some Rodinal though ...

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X-ray film has identical emulsion on both sides of film base. You really need to develop in a tray, or film hangers in a tank, so the developer can work evenly on both sides of the film, otherwise you may get streaks or mottling.

I think you can get acceptable pictorial results with any film developer, but it will be trial and error until you work out your exposure and development times to your satisfaction.

Wouldn't x-ray film and a 2509 reel be ok? The film is evenly bathed on both sides by delevoper. I've seen Westley's negatives from a Jobo reel & tank and they are fine. Two posts back ^.

Yes, the reels would be just fine, but the Jobo expert, or print drums, or BTZS tubes won't work well.

The KEY is having equal developer and fixer access to both sides of the film. Any way you want to develop that allows for full and free access to both sides of the film would work. My experience with drums is old. I think of the print drums I used years ago for color prints, and the paper basically touched the inside of the drum on the back side, and chemistry only had free access on the image side. This will not work for X-ray film.

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Originally Posted by Don Dudenbostel

I would suggest trying mamography film. It comes in odd sizes but its single coated on one side and fairly durable. I use it in special xray applications and find kodak and agfa to be finer grain than traditional double coated film. I need more contrast in what I do and run it in D19 1:1 and have used HC110 1:31 with good results. You also might try industrial fray film. I think most are single coated and come in sizes that might work well for pano cameras.

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I priced the mamography film a few months back and it didn't seem that much cheaper than "regular" B&W film. Am I missing something? I will look into the industrial film however, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Jason Greenberg Motamedi

I priced the mamography film a few months back and it didn't seem that much cheaper than "regular" B&W film. Am I missing something? I will look into the industrial film however, thanks.

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Right, the mammography film is more costly than common x-ray film. I haven't found a source for industrial X-ray film, would appreciate any links or leads.

Here is another example of Blue Sensitive X-ray film (from CXS online) developed in X-tol for about 4 minutes.

Industrial NDT [non-destructive testing] film appears to be quite expensive.
For the sites I could turn up, pricing is hard to find- one site sez click for price but, maybe account I dont use IE, didn't work. But certainly all the sites- a lot fewer than medical x ray- are very much less transparent about $ than the medicals- perhaps much less volume and competition. There was one past-date clearance item that was able to check - 25 sheets 7x17 for $108, regularly $349. Good news is that I've found data for films by Kodak [Industrex], Fuji , and Agfa [Structurix], and the many weird roll sizes are tantalizing -70, 90, 100 mm, 5, 14 inch etc. So far, I fear it MAY be very costly, but for certain [strange] sizes it may be the only game. I haven't tried a telephone call yet, awaiting actual disposable income.
Thanks very much to Gene for his continuing reports, and to wclavey.

Here's a start for the adventurous
http://www.mpmproducts.com/products_rad_film_kodak.htm
http://www.tedndt.com/cat/index.php?TED=30
http://www.ndtmart.com

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Originally Posted by Gene McCluney

Here is another example of Blue Sensitive X-ray film (from CXS online) developed in X-tol for about 4 minutes.

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Gene, that is a very nice shot. What color is the Cadillac? Curious to know how the film handles different tones. Does anyone know what the affect filters has on these films? I mean the standard ones like yellow, orange, green and red? It would be nice to try this stuff in 11x14. I have hangers for my 11x14 film so development could be in tanks.

Jim

I didn't mean to forget to thank Jason too, but I did, sorry

Here's a site with prices, for your enjoyment
http://www.ndtmart.com/default.php

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Originally Posted by Jason Greenberg Motamedi

I priced the mamography film a few months back and it didn't seem that much cheaper than "regular" B&W film. Am I missing something? I will look into the industrial film however, thanks.

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I've purchased in date or slightly out of date Kodak Min-R Mammography film off ebay for $25 per box of 100 sheets in 18x24cm size. I think I bought 5 boxes at one time at that price. Also bought Agfa a few years ago for about the same price. Keep your eyes open you'll eventually find some. Also call your local diagnostic center and hospital to see if they have any they are tossing out or will sell cheap. Almost all mammography centers are digital now.

I actually use very little of the mamo film now for my x-ray work and more often use HP-5 due to finer grain and better definition in extreme enlargements. I do x-rays of flowers (www.x-rayarts.com) and enlarge small images to 24x36 inches so high res and fine grain are important. The mamo film works very well for objects like shells and found objects.

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Originally Posted by Jim Fitzgerald

Gene, that is a very nice shot. What color is the Cadillac? Curious to know how the film handles different tones. Does anyone know what the affect filters has on these films? I mean the standard ones like yellow, orange, green and red? It would be nice to try this stuff in 11x14. I have hangers for my 11x14 film so development could be in tanks.

Jim

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Jim, the CHRYSLER was originally black, but it has oxidized as it sits in my side yard. I wouldn't think a film that is only sensitive to the blue end of the visible spectrum would be a good choice for use with filters. A yellow or Red filter would just about filter out all the light the film is sensitive to.

I just looked at ebay (no connection to seller) and found a few mamo films and an example of industrial film. 220400581656 Larger can often be found. Industrial is a little different than medical film. It's single sided generally and has no particular color sensitivity. Medical film is either green or blue sensitive because it's sandwiched between one (mamo film) or two screens (medical general purpose film) fluorescent screens that makes the actual exposure on the film. The screen fluoresces when struck by x-rays.Exposure to radiation is much less with this system as opposed to a straight exposure with x-rays only. The downside is the resolution is less than without the screens. In industrial work resolution is more important than speed and exposing the subject to x-rays is not a factor generally. Also in mammography resolution is critical so single coated film is used and a single high res screen to reduce x-ray exposure to the patient.

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Originally Posted by Jim Fitzgerald

I have hangers for my 11x14 film so development could be in tanks.

Jim

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Sigh!! I wish I had 11x14 film hangers. I could work up some tanks if I only had the hangers.

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Originally Posted by Gene McCluney

Sigh!! I wish I had 11x14 film hangers. I could work up some tanks if I only had the hangers.

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Gene, sorry about the car! I need to look more closely next time. I'll try to find a way to photograph my 11x14 hangers. They are made out of plexi. I don't know if they will work with x-ray film but eventually I'll try. Imagine the Kodak hangers but they have a dimpled back piece of plexi sheet and small screws that hold the film off of the sheet. Like I said I don't know if I'll be able to get enough developer behind the sheet. i think so but I'll know when I test it out. Worst case would be to develop one at an time. i already do that with my 11x14 and develop by inspection.

Jim

I thought that this might be useful information for people considering using x-ray film - - it is from a textbook on medical radiation physics.

The attached graph shows 3 lines on it:

1. the normal eye's sensitivity to the spectrum
2. the emission frequency of a blue x-ray screen
3. the frequency response of blue sensitive x-ray film

I actually suspect that the cut-off of x-ray film sensitivity in the green range is not as absolutely sharp as it might appear here, given some of the negatives I have taken, but it is probably is close.

11x14 film hangers for xrays:
Stainless, perhaps the clips punch holes in the film ? $42
Plastic $14, not in 11x14, but 14x17 vert, so a hack could make it into 11x14, probly and "No holes punched in film"

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Originally Posted by EdWorkman

11x14 film hangers for xrays:
Stainless, perhaps the clips punch holes in the film ? $42
Plastic $14, not in 11x14, but 14x17 vert, so a hack could make it into 11x14, probly and "No holes punched in film"

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Are you selling? Do you have illustrations? I sent you an email.

Here's my answer to Gene, perhaps others can use this info

Hi Gene
I spent hours a year or so ago surfing the web for info about using Xray film
Your posts have been most helpful
In all that info, I found suppliers of hangers - and some very weird sizes
So you can exhale :>) here are some urls- I didn't post them account I didn't know if they were really of interest
Stainless with a picture and pricing @ $41.80 each {hmm do one have to buy more than 1?]
http://www.quickmedical.com/wolf_xra...g_hangers.html
plastic 14x17, small photo
this is the hack candidate
http://www.xraysupercenter.com/show....umParam=PMPH17
I chased down the manufacturer's site and saw the same photo- can't recall if the type of "poly" is stated anywhere, but if/when I get off my duff into 7x17 I will pop $14 and a hacksaw- if you don't first :>)
hope this helps you
regards, and thanks again- keep them coming
Ed

I saw some for 5x12 as well - looks like it is a dental x-ray size. They were also about $40.

Heres your daily X-ray film shot 8x10. Green foliage goes really dark on the blue sensitive film. "Old Shed"

Ahhhhh
Thank you
Seeya tomorrow

OK, so is anybody using the green sensitive film?
Bueller? Bueller? Clavey? Anybody?

This is green sensitive Kodak T/Mat x-ray. An 8x10 palladium print, sorry for the poor scan but it gives you an idea.

Another quick scan,
8x10 palladium
Kodak Tmat

Gene, is the shed actually white? That foliage did go really dark.

I'm getting ready to order another box and I was just going to get more blue sensitive. I can't find a sensitivity curve for the green and I just suspected that it probably looked like the blue curve, just shifted further to the right... but if that were true, I would have expected lighter foliage in Brian's 8x10... I guess I'll just stick with what I know.

Surely the green film with a green or yellow green filter would produce lighter foliage with more detail. Isn't the mammography film more or less panchromatic?

The green sensitive film will give lighter foliage if processed "normally".Here is a crop from an 11x14 green sensitive neg of wild columbine. The flowers are red and foliage is a medium green.

Brian, that looks more like I expected. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by photobulley

The green sensitive film will give lighter foliage if processed "normally".Here is a crop from an 11x14 green sensitive neg of wild columbine. The flowers are red and foliage is a medium green.

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Brian, thanks for giving me this information. It helps if I can visualize the effects. As I recall in a past post you posted a shot done with a soft focus lens that I was very impressed with. This is a very nice image also.

Jim

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Originally Posted by Don Dudenbostel

I would suggest trying mamography film. It comes in odd sizes but its single coated on one side and fairly durable. I use it in special xray applications and find kodak and agfa to be finer grain than traditional double coated film. I need more contrast in what I do and run it in D19 1:1 and have used HC110 1:31 with good results. You also might try industrial fray film. I think most are single coated and come in sizes that might work well for pano cameras.

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Don, do you have a source for mammography film... I have found very few on-line x-ray product stores that sell it and the ones that do only have Kodak brand which is 4 times the price of regular blue sensitive (8x10). Or perhaps I am looking at the wrong types of suppliers.

Thanks Ed,

That is most helpful. If anybody orders the stainless I would be interested in hearing if it punctures the film or not. Anyhow, it looks like I will be building some tanks.

jason

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Originally Posted by EdWorkman

Here's my answer to Gene, perhaps others can use this info

Hi Gene
I spent hours a year or so ago surfing the web for info about using Xray film
Your posts have been most helpful
In all that info, I found suppliers of hangers - and some very weird sizes
So you can exhale :>) here are some urls- I didn't post them account I didn't know if they were really of interest
Stainless with a picture and pricing @ $41.80 each {hmm do one have to buy more than 1?]
http://www.quickmedical.com/wolf_xra...g_hangers.html
plastic 14x17, small photo
this is the hack candidate
http://www.xraysupercenter.com/show....umParam=PMPH17
I chased down the manufacturer's site and saw the same photo- can't recall if the type of "poly" is stated anywhere, but if/when I get off my duff into 7x17 I will pop $14 and a hacksaw- if you don't first :>)
hope this helps you
regards, and thanks again- keep them coming
Ed

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The best place to find Mamo film cheap is ebay or check with your local hospital or diagnostic center. Most have or are going digital and throwing this film away.

Wes,

Mamography film is expensive. Single sided, orthochromatic. Just like rgular film. Almost.

http://www.zzmedical.com/zencart/fil...-c-28_103.html

I also see x-ray duplicating film. Has anyone used this film in an enlarger to make duplicate negatives for contact printing?

I have an idea for some hangers that I am going to try for 11x14. I have some now but they are for regular film. They have a sheet of dimpled plexi that holds the film off of the surface. Another photographer gave them to me with the tanks and I have not used them yet. Like I said I have an idea to make some like the Kodak hangers that I have in 8x10. I'll be sure to post my results with pictures when I get them done. i think I'll try the ones I have now and see if they work.

Jim

Venchka
I have used what I am morally certain is Xray dupe, albeit "continuous tone direct positive" from Photo Warehouse
Blue base, round corners...
It is very slow, but I have, in desperation perhaps, used it in projection mode- Beseler 8x10 cold light. i rescued a 116 size neg that had greatly faded since 1941 or so, and I used the dupe to raise contrast as well as density. Hmm probly the time wasn't that bad for that neg, as it was extremely thin. Other things i tried from more normal old negs, took 5 or more min of exposure.
Under those extremes I got a fairly gritty look, but a printable negative.

I actually pried myself out of a long funk to develop film yesterday, and if the motivation lasts for a coupla more days [ i hope I hope] I'll go try some prints from more of the enlarged dupes and report further.
Should work if you have enough time or LOTS of light- The cost-benefit ratio of a 25 sheet package should pay off, I think.

I should add that typically I have processed the xdupe in developers meant for paper- the gallon liquid concentrates from Freestyle and Photwarehouse and most recently [ has it been two years ??? ] the film versions. Developing times are short , in the two minute range, with either and contrast is easier to control with the film version, not surprisingly.
Here's a watch out.
These developers can stain paper and mottle dupe film as they weaken/age and water rinse is used for stop- but then I should probably be called a "sloppy worker"....