Help needed, graflex camera for landscape.

Hello,
I've been shooting wilderness landscapes for the last several months using a digital camera and just a single 28mm manual lens with some grad filters. A couple of weeks ago I borrowed a 4x5 Toyo monorail with a 210mm lens to have a taste of the LF world (always liked it, but never got the chance to try it before) and after seeing my first negatives, got hooked. It's very expensive to shoot but certainly worth the additional effort, especially if I manage to keep my 4x5 slides only for the most special light situations.
A monorail is to bulky for me to carry up in the mountains and a field camera is out of my budget for the moment since I have to pay a lot to enter it into the country (even with a reliable shipping agent in Argentina).
Frank Petronio kindly pointed me to the Graflex cameras which are generally sub us400 and seem compact enough for backpacking. I really like the concept of a tough inexpensive camera which get the job done and read almost all I could on the graflex site but still have some questions:
1). It seems like the speed graphics and the pacemakers have almost field camera capabilities, but the speed have a shutter and the pacemakers don't. Does that mean that I can mount any lens I have on the speed shutter and just use it?
2). There are a lot of ads stating something about top and side rangefinders. I'll be focusing on the screen, are they really important?
3). I've read that the Crowns are very WA friendly and allow front tilt if you drop the bed. Does this mean I can't use a 90mm on a Speed or a pacemaker?
4). Can I mount a panoramic back on any of these cameras? (6x12)
5). Based on my current 35mm experience and several weeks with the Toyo, I'll be using a 90mm lens for 90% of my shots and will add a 210 later on for some compact scenes where I do need some additional tilting. What Graflex model is the most adequate for me?
In case, someone want to have a look at my recent digital stuff to have a general impression of what I'll be doing, I have some shots here http://www.flickr.com/photos/24544103@N02/
And last but not least, If you have a nice graflex camera or any other alternative gathering dust and want to sell it and give it a second life in the Patagonia mountains and steppes, I'm open to offers and the best part is that the agent I'm working with, can pick it in a shipping address in Miami, so, no troubles for the seller with international shipping.
Well, thanks for reading and for any info.
Have a nice week,
Nicolas.

Nicolas, I'll try to give you a little info and will no doubt be joined by others with even more to say!

1. Yes, with a Speed Graphic having a built-in focal-plane shutter, you can use pretty much any lens you can mount on its board. Remember that many lenses out there were not designed for large format so you must check out their coverage if you want full 4x5 negatives/slides. LF barrel lenses are much cheaper than lenses mounted in shutters as a general rule.

2. I don't find the rangefinder very important on my Super Graphic since I don't use it...I focus with the ground glass and use the Graphic like a field camera. By the way, the Super and Super Speed Graphics were made late in the Graphic history and are usually found in pretty good condition; they are smaller than the Crowns and Speeds and have a revolving Graflock back which is handy, but they do NOT have a focal plane shutter. My camera does have a working rangefinder set for the 135mm lens in case I want to use it hand-held.

3. I've use 90mm lenses on pretty much all of the 4x5 Graphic models and I don't remember it being a problem on any of them...they work fine on the Super series. Shorter than 90mm can be problematic.

4. You can get a 6x120 back for any of them...Calumet slide-in back for those with spring backs, many other brands for those with Graflock backs.

5. 90mm's and 210mm's are nice and I use them alot, but your new camera will probably come with a 135mm or a 127mm already on it and is perfectly useable as a starter lens. Most press cameras seem to be sold with a lens mounted. As you have already gathered, I'm partial to the Super Speed and the Super, but Crowns and Speeds in good shape are still good workable cameras. While I don't use it much, I do also own an older Speed Graphic with a spring back.

The important thing is to get a good conditioned camera and learn how to use it! Have fun! :)

Look into the (used) Busch Pressman model D. They are less expensive than the Graphics, and have revolving backs (vertical or horizontal), and tilting front lens standard. More sutable for landscape, less suitable as a press camera. They are all-metal and quite tough.

Nicholas,

I can't add anything re: Speed Graphics (I'm assuming you have ruled out folding field models), but I like your digital work and look forward to you LF shots down the road. ;)

Nicholas, Graflex-speak is impenetrable.

Pacemaker Graphics were introduced in 1947, replaced the Anniversary Speed Graphic (has a focal plane shutter). Three sizes (2 1/4 x 3 1/4, 3 1/4 x 4 1/4, 4x5) of Pacemakers, two models (Pacemaker Speed Graphic, has a focal plane shutter; Pacemaker Crown Graphic, doesn't have a focal plane shutter, is shorter).

4x5 Pacemakers' key limits: minimum flange to film distances: Crown, 52.4 mm; Speed, 66.7 mm. Maximum extension (from memory, I could be mistaken): Crown, 11.5"; Speed, 12.5"

Bill's right, the 4x5 Busch Pressman is an alternative. It has more movements than Pacemaker Graphics. But it has several disadvantages too. Small lensboard, hard to find. Fixed infinity stops which make using several focal lengths a bit harder than with a Pacemaker Graphic, which will have folding infinity stops. Inner (inside the box) and outer (on the front door) rails not linked, unlike the Pacemaker Graphics; this makes focusing a w/a lens that makes infinity on the inner rails harder than with a Pacemaker Graphic. The Super Graphic also has this last shortcoming.

Go to www.graflex.org and read the FAQs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vick Vickery

Nicolas, I'll try to give you a little info and will no doubt be joined by others with even more to say!

1. Yes, with a Speed Graphic having a built-in focal-plane shutter, you can use pretty much any lens you can mount on its board. Remember that many lenses out there were not designed for large format so you must check out their coverage if you want full 4x5 negatives/slides. LF barrel lenses are much cheaper than lenses mounted in shutters as a general rule.

2. I don't find the rangefinder very important on my Super Graphic since I don't use it...I focus with the ground glass and use the Graphic like a field camera. By the way, the Super and Super Speed Graphics were made late in the Graphic history and are usually found in pretty good condition; they are smaller than the Crowns and Speeds and have a revolving Graflock back which is handy, but they do NOT have a focal plane shutter. My camera does have a working rangefinder set for the 135mm lens in case I want to use it hand-held.

3. I've use 90mm lenses on pretty much all of the 4x5 Graphic models and I don't remember it being a problem on any of them...they work fine on the Super series. Shorter than 90mm can be problematic.

4. You can get a 6x120 back for any of them...Calumet slide-in back for those with spring backs, many other brands for those with Graflock backs.

5. 90mm's and 210mm's are nice and I use them alot, but your new camera will probably come with a 135mm or a 127mm already on it and is perfectly useable as a starter lens. Most press cameras seem to be sold with a lens mounted. As you have already gathered, I'm partial to the Super Speed and the Super, but Crowns and Speeds in good shape are still good workable cameras. While I don't use it much, I do also own an older Speed Graphic with a spring back.

The important thing is to get a good conditioned camera and learn how to use it! Have fun! :)

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Thanks a lot Vick, I see you like the Super and it looks like a whole lot of camera for the buck. I'll pay closer attention to those.
Good to hear the 90 is perfectly usable, I've been using some rather UWA focal ranges o my 35mm for a while and never liked them. The 90 seems to be the perfect balance for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill_1856

Look into the (used) Busch Pressman model D. They are less expensive than the Graphics, and have revolving backs (vertical or horizontal), and tilting front lens standard. More sutable for landscape, less suitable as a press camera. They are all-metal and quite tough.

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Thank you Bill, the graflex are my first option basically because I keep seeing them for sale. But I'll keep an eye opened for some nice Busch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg

Nicholas,

I can't add anything re: Speed Graphics (I'm assuming you have ruled out folding field models), but I like your digital work and look forward to you LF shots down the road. ;)

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Thanks a lot Bob for your kind words!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Fromm

Nicholas, Graflex-speak is impenetrable.

Pacemaker Graphics were introduced in 1947, replaced the Anniversary Speed Graphic (has a focal plane shutter). Three sizes (2 1/4 x 3 1/4, 3 1/4 x 4 1/4, 4x5) of Pacemakers, two models (Pacemaker Speed Graphic, has a focal plane shutter; Pacemaker Crown Graphic, doesn't have a focal plane shutter, is shorter).

4x5 Pacemakers' key limits: minimum flange to film distances: Crown, 52.4 mm; Speed, 66.7 mm. Maximum extension (from memory, I could be mistaken): Crown, 11.5"; Speed, 12.5"

Bill's right, the 4x5 Busch Pressman is an alternative. It has more movements than Pacemaker Graphics. But it has several disadvantages too. Small lensboard, hard to find. Fixed infinity stops which make using several focal lengths a bit harder than with a Pacemaker Graphic, which will have folding infinity stops. Inner (inside the box) and outer (on the front door) rails not linked, unlike the Pacemaker Graphics; this makes focusing a w/a lens that makes infinity on the inner rails harder than with a Pacemaker Graphic. The Super Graphic also has this last shortcoming.

Go to www.graflex.org and read the FAQs.

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Thank you Dan. You are right, the graf speak is a whole new world to me.
It's amazing how I was sold on a Speed or superspeed when I read Vick's post and how I like the Crown now when I saw it's amazing minimum extension and compact size.


I've been told and read it as well, that the front tilt on the Crown is produced by dropping the bed, but here is something i don't get, the bd can be fixed in any position while dropped? This is: you can fix a precise amount of tilt while dropping the bed, right?

Thanks again, your help is really really appreciated!

I can shoot with a Nikkor 300mm on my Naked Crown 4x5, no problem.

I highly recommend them; they are loads of fun. Press lenses are dirt cheap--$30 to $90 each, except for the 203 Ektars which tend to go for more. A good Optar or Raptar 90mm, and you will be in business. I have a 90mm Optar that I love--tiny, tiny lens.

The only drawback is limited (very limited) movements. If you can live with that, they are fantastic.

The naked version weighs under three pounds (compared to the fully-equipped, over-engineered, range-finder 5 lbs.).

I carry four lenses with my kit: 90mm Optar, 127, 152, and 203 Ektars. Fun!!! Plus I can carry all this in a soft-padded lunch sized cooler bag with a shoulder strap.

For front tilt, see the second pic--drop the bed, then use the back tilt to reduce the amount of front tilt. Use the max front rise to avoid front fall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Roberts

I can shoot with a Nikkor 300mm on my Naked Crown 4x5, no problem....

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Michael,

That looks nice. Was your camera manufactured with finished wood, or did you strip the leatherette off and finish the wood yourself?

...Mike

Hi Mike,
I stripped it. Actually what I bought was the body, front standard, and a bellows with pinholes. It looked gawd-awful. Turned out to be an original 1947 model Crown with Moroccan leather. The leather was dried out and the brass under the door had huge copper-oxide blisters--looked like ostrich leather. I bought it for $15, I think.

Since then, I have bought and refinished a few more bodies (and paid a little more for them). Leather comes off dead easy. Soak some paper towels, lay them on the leather, cover with plastic wrap, and five minutes later you can pull the leather off like peeling a banana. The later synthetic covered ones are a bitch to strip; I bruised my sternum trying to pull the leatherette off, pulling toward me and all the while reaching around with a razor blade to cut 1/8 inch of the glue at a time (and being careful not to scratch the mahogany!).

The Crowns and Speeds all have a nice mahogany underneath. Refinish great.

I added a leather carrying handle on top 'cause I hate the side straps--you can't set the damn things down on the ground (or a table) from the side, and I don't use the side strap to hold the camera to shoot hand-held anyway (and the originals were top-handles).

Well you talked me into it. I'm now looking for a cheap Crown Graphic. Preferably with old leather.

...Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Roberts

Hi Mike,
I stripped it. Actually what I bought was the body, front standard, and a bellows with pinholes. It looked gawd-awful. Turned out to be an original 1947 model Crown with Moroccan leather. The leather was dried out and the brass under the door had huge copper-oxide blisters--looked like ostrich leather. I bought it for $15, I think.

Since then, I have bought and refinished a few more bodies (and paid a little more for them). Leather comes off dead easy. Soak some paper towels, lay them on the leather, cover with plastic wrap, and five minutes later you can pull the leather off like peeling a banana. The later synthetic covered ones are a bitch to strip; I bruised my sternum trying to pull the leatherette off, pulling toward me and all the while reaching around with a razor blade to cut 1/8 inch of the glue at a time (and being careful not to scratch the mahogany!).

The Crowns and Speeds all have a nice mahogany underneath. Refinish great.

I added a leather carrying handle on top 'cause I hate the side straps--you can't set the damn things down on the ground (or a table) from the side, and I don't use the side strap to hold the camera to shoot hand-held anyway (and the originals were top-handles).

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I'd find a Crown okay but for the lack of a vertical-orienting back. It also has no swings unless the front standard is cut and modified. Forward tilt is simpler to achieve but it didn't come with it originally, it requires an easier modification. I'm told a Crown is better with sub-90mm lenses than other Graflexes are, due to the focusing of the inner rail being tied to the bed focusing knobs.
On my Super Graphic is the rangefinder was dead accurate with a Raptar 135mm I already had, using the original cam for the (Wollensak built) Optar 135mm lens. The Caltar IIN 135mm I bought for the camera, however, has a slightly different focal length than labelled, and unfortunately swapping these old hard-to-procure cams is the only way of adjusting these RFs. (Doubtless easier to adjust a side-mounted Kalart Synchronized RF than finding a rare cam for one of the Super Graphics/Super Speed Graphics. Worsening matters the Top Mounted RF Speed Graphics or Crown Graphics also use RF cams, but they're not interchangeable with the Super and Super Speed Graphic ones-- whew!).

I do find the RF very useful when using a roll-film back, or a Graflok, as I don't necessarily first have to remove the ground glass and Ektalite screen (and then set it down and hope that I don't scratch it) which would rather be the case focusing only with the back.

I also have a couple of Meridians (45B, 45CE), which are wonderful and capable cameras with a lot of moves and revolving back but are also a bit heavier than the Super Graphic.

If you end up doing much work with wide angles, however, none of these choices will compare to the speed and ease of using a monorail with a bag bellows. (So I also found a Sinar Norma just for my 90mm.).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Roberts

I can shoot with a Nikkor 300mm on my Naked Crown 4x5, no problem.

I highly recommend them; they are loads of fun. Press lenses are dirt cheap--$30 to $90 each, except for the 203 Ektars which tend to go for more. A good Optar or Raptar 90mm, and you will be in business. I have a 90mm Optar that I love--tiny, tiny lens.

The only drawback is limited (very limited) movements. If you can live with that, they are fantastic.

The naked version weighs under three pounds (compared to the fully-equipped, over-engineered, range-finder 5 lbs.).

I carry four lenses with my kit: 90mm Optar, 127, 152, and 203 Ektars. Fun!!! Plus I can carry all this in a soft-padded lunch sized cooler bag with a shoulder strap.

For front tilt, see the second pic--drop the bed, then use the back tilt to reduce the amount of front tilt. Use the max front rise to avoid front fall.

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Michael, this looks like a great kit! Although I think I slightly prefer them black, the whole stripping idea is wonderful- the weight savings are very important and the RF setup is quite unnecessary for landscape, adding some extra bulk.
Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Anderson

Well you talked me into it. I'm now looking for a cheap Crown Graphic. Preferably with old leather.

...Mike

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:D Leave a Graphic for me please :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivan J. Eberle

If you end up doing much work with wide angles, however, none of these choices will compare to the speed and ease of using a monorail with a bag bellows. (So I also found a Sinar Norma just for my 90mm.).

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Thank you Ivan, I count another vote for the Speed. Really hard to choose at this point :).
You are right about the monorail indeed, it's a pleasure to use but such a pain to move around.
By the way, it's great to see that these amazing cameras have such a devoted group of user, another great classic like the Colt 1911 or the 57 Chevy.

Nicholas, Graphics' drop bed is used to remove the bed from the image when shooting with a wide angle lens. The front standard tilts backward to allow it to be made vertical, i.e., parallel to the film plane, when it is on the bed and the bed is dropped. The front standard doesn't have enough rise to allow many lenses to be centered on the gate when used on a dropped bed. That is, front fall is nearly inevitable.

Practically speaking Graphics' only useful movement is front rise. They appear to offer a little shift as well, but this is severely constrained by the struts that support the bed.

If you want movements, get a monorail.

IMO it makes little sense to have only one Graphic. My travel kit contains two. A Century (= Crown with a plastic body) for use with short lenses and a Speed for lenses in barrel or too long for the Century. I have brackets that allow me to mount the Speed behind the Century to make a long camera that will focus long lenses usefully close. The longest lens I use on my tandem Graphic is 480 mm. Note, I shoot 2x3, not 4x5, but the ideas apply to 4x5.

Nicolas,
If you are interested, I have one on my workbench that I am refinishing. The wood is done, just need to add a back and recover the door. This one was leather, so I also stripped the leather from the front of the camera bed (the part that folds down). I am about to recover the front with black kidskin leather, same as I did on my own, and add a black leather handle for the top. If you want to buy an already stripped, refinished camera, send me a PM.

I use the old graphic, spring backs. Sounds like you will need a modern graflok back for using a roll holder. I can supply you with the camera w/o a back and you can add a graflok back you acquire yourself (only requires six screws and the holes are predrilled) or I can buy a graflok back and install it for you.

You may also want to reverse the front standard so you can use front tilt with your 90mm lens when the front standard is still on the rails inside the body. This can be done fairly easily.

I just checked, and I don't have a 90mm Optar or Raptar on hand at the moment (actually, I have two, but one is in my kit and the other is in my wife's kit, so I don't want to part with them).

Mike--look for one with a serial number beginning with 4. The leather ones are hard to find and hard for sellers to distinguish from the leatherette. I've been tracking serial numbers to try to id exactly when the switch occured; it was sometime in 1950-51, as far as I recall, but Graflex just used up the leather on hand and then switched, so there's no magic date, and far more of the leatherette covered cameras were made.

Dan--would love to see a picture of your two Crowns with the 480 lens! Can you post one?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Fromm

Nicholas, Graphics' drop bed is used to remove the bed from the image when shooting with a wide angle lens. The front standard tilts backward to allow it to be made vertical, i.e., parallel to the film plane, when it is on the bed and the bed is dropped. The front standard doesn't have enough rise to allow many lenses to be centered on the gate when used on a dropped bed. That is, front fall is nearly inevitable.

Practically speaking Graphics' only useful movement is front rise. They appear to offer a little shift as well, but this is severely constrained by the struts that support the bed.

If you want movements, get a monorail.

IMO it makes little sense to have only one Graphic. My travel kit contains two. A Century (= Crown with a plastic body) for use with short lenses and a Speed for lenses in barrel or too long for the Century. I have brackets that allow me to mount the Speed behind the Century to make a long camera that will focus long lenses usefully close. The longest lens I use on my tandem Graphic is 480 mm. Note, I shoot 2x3, not 4x5, but the ideas apply to 4x5.

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Thank you Dan for the detailed explanation. It looks like the Speed with it additional flexibility would fill the bill as a more or less "universal" camera.
The two cameras kit is a great idea, but I'm already carrying a digital camera, so will have to settle with one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Roberts

...
Mike--look for one with a serial number beginning with 4. The leather ones are hard to find and hard for sellers to distinguish from the leatherette. I've been tracking serial numbers to try to id exactly when the switch occured; it was sometime in 1950-51, as far as I recall, but Graflex just used up the leather on hand and then switched, so there's no magic date, and far more of the leatherette covered cameras were made.
...

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Thanks for the tip.

...Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Roberts

Nicolas,
If you are interested, I have one on my workbench that I am refinishing. The wood is done, just need to add a back and recover the door. This one was leather, so I also stripped the leather from the front of the camera bed (the part that folds down). I am about to recover the front with black kidskin leather, same as I did on my own, and add a black leather handle for the top. If you want to buy an already stripped, refinished camera, send me a PM.

I use the old graphic, spring backs. Sounds like you will need a modern graflok back for using a roll holder. I can supply you with the camera w/o a back and you can add a graflok back you acquire yourself (only requires six screws and the holes are predrilled) or I can buy a graflok back and install it for you.

You may also want to reverse the front standard so you can use front tilt with your 90mm lens when the front standard is still on the rails inside the body. This can be done fairly easily.

I just checked, and I don't have a 90mm Optar or Raptar on hand at the moment (actually, I have two, but one is in my kit and the other is in my wife's kit, so I don't want to part with them).

Mike--look for one with a serial number beginning with 4. The leather ones are hard to find and hard for sellers to distinguish from the leatherette. I've been tracking serial numbers to try to id exactly when the switch occured; it was sometime in 1950-51, as far as I recall, but Graflex just used up the leather on hand and then switched, so there's no magic date, and far more of the leatherette covered cameras were made.

Dan--would love to see a picture of your two Crowns with the 480 lens! Can you post one?

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Great, very intereseting, I'll PM you with some questions if you don't mind.

Your refinished Graphic is beautiful. I just bought a 1947 2X3 Pacemaker Speed Graphic in great shape. Would it have the same mahogany frame underneath the leather? The lens board is metal however but it would be nice to show the wood frame if it's there.

tom thomas

Hi Tom,
Thanks! Your 2x3 Speed should be mahogany underneath. The only ones I know of that are not are the Centuries with the plastic bodies like Dan mentioned above. If yours is a 1947, it definitely will be the Moroccan leather covering. Enjoy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NicolasArg

Hello,

snip...

still have some questions:
1). It seems like the speed graphics and the pacemakers have almost field camera capabilities, but the speed have a shutter and the pacemakers don't. Does that mean that I can mount any lens I have on the speed shutter and just use it?
2). There are a lot of ads stating something about top and side rangefinders. I'll be focusing on the screen, are they really important?
3). I've read that the Crowns are very WA friendly and allow front tilt if you drop the bed. Does this mean I can't use a 90mm on a Speed or a pacemaker?
4). Can I mount a panoramic back on any of these cameras? (6x12)
5). Based on my current 35mm experience and several weeks with the Toyo, I'll be using a 90mm lens for 90% of my shots and will add a 210 later on for some compact scenes where I do need some additional tilting. What Graflex model is the most adequate for me?

snip

Have a nice week,
Nicolas.

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Answers

1) For landscape, you'll want a Crown Graphic. The focal plane shutter and larger body of the Speed makes it much heavier (though Speeds are great cameras too for focal plane rangefinder uses, i.e., portraits or street, for example).
2) I use a nearly naked Crown Graphic for landscape work. It has the top rangefinder and internal focusing components removed. This reduces the weight to about 4.5 lbs without a lens. You can easily remove either kind of rangefinder.
3) On a Crown, I use my 65 4.5 Grandagon on the inner track with the bed dropped; it works beautifully. The Crown has room to go wider.
4) A Crown Graphic will take something like a Horseman 612 back, yes.
5) Crown Graphic.

I occasionally use Speed Graphics, Crowns, and Burke & James press cameras. The latter does have a rotating back and uses easy-to-make 4" square lensboards like the older Graphic Anniversary model, but otherwise is less desirable than the Graphics. If one strips a Crown or SG and refinishes the wood, 1/16" plywood makes decent lens boards. You don't need the turned down edges of the original Pacemaker lens boards. A good paint job on the backside should block any transmitted light. A foam rubber or plywood light trap fitted to the back of a flat board works as well as lens boards have for a hundred years or more.

speed graphics and crown graphics are like large 35mm or 120 cameras
no movements to speak of. if your subjects don't require anything but rise
they are great cameras, i have a speed (pacemaker) and use it often. but
if you need movements don't waste your time and money, time or effort,
get a camera that does the thing you need.

That is precisly why I have two 4X5's...the Speed Graphic for handheld work. And a Burke&James Speed Press on a tripod when I want front movements. It has 'em all-rise and fall tilt slide and swivel.:rolleyes:

I use a crown graphic pretty often as a field camera and for traveling. I stripped it down a bit and removed the (side-mount, in this case) range finder and the internal cable release deal. I can fit it quite easily in a small shoulder bag with a couple of film holders if I want to go light. I have a 90mm Ilex Caltar lens that won't close inside the camera, but if you stick with the optar or rapax or whatever lenses (it is hard to keep all the graf names straight), they are all pretty small and will easily fold up in the camera. The only downside with those lenses is if you decide to move to a different body with more movements; the coverage is pretty minimal on the press lenses.