Adox CMS 20 Slides, what bleaching chem ???

I tried several ways to reverse ADOX CMS 20, I failed to obtain good results.


Well, I obtained interesting burnt lomographic results:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592...posted-public/


But I'd like to obtain a quality result like if it was from one of those good labs:

http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-films-...ii-adotech-ii/


I've the problem with bleaching, both Permanganate and Dichromate remove too much Silver Halide (that should stay...), I've tried different times and concentrations...

So... what bleach agent can be used ?

Thanks in advance !

It's not your bleach that's the problem, it's your developer that you need to change. The Photostudio13 process is the standard Agfa Scala one, & that will almost certainly use a fairly powerful first developer in the D-19/ PQ Universal sort of direction. I'd strongly suggest getting a roll of CMS20 processed by them, as it'll give you a useful reference point. I've just received a roll of CMS20 processed by PS13 & can post an example if that would be of any use. It is an extremely contrasty film, even after reversal processing, but a surprising amount can be extracted if you know what you are doing with a Hasselblad/ Imacon/ high-end flatbed/ drum scanner.

Thanks for the The Photostudio13 information... I'll consider to have a benchmark, anyway I'm interested in developing it myself.

I also tried with PQ Universal, it is in the reversal recipe from Ilford.

As first developer I used Adotech II, consider that CMS is microfilm and it renders extreme contrast as it is monodisperse, so all grains are of similar size so there is no natural tone gradation, a low contrast developer is needed !

After stop bath I open lights (as it can be done and I do with any reversal) and see metallic silver and silver halide, it is correct because if I fix it I obtain a normal negative, but if I apply bleach (permanganate or dichromate) metallic silver goes away but halide also does, when it should stay.

I'd like to see that example please, if possible, to know what results can be obtained !!

Thanks in advance

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...sing-with-D-11

Thomas

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Originally Posted by tgtaylor

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...sing-with-D-11

Thomas

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Hello Tomas,

thanks for that link, there is interesting information in that thread that I'll use for other films, but still no solution for an ADOX CMS 20 suitable bleach bath that do not wash out halide it should stay...

Pere

For the bleach, I used the formula for DW-1 given at page 320 of the Darkroom Cookbook, 3d edition.

Thomas

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pere Casals

Thanks for the The Photostudio13 information... I'll consider to have a benchmark, anyway I'm interested in developing it myself.

I also tried with PQ Universal, it is in the reversal recipe from Ilford.

As first developer I used Adotech II, consider that CMS is microfilm and it renders extreme contrast as it is monodisperse, so all grains are of similar size so there is no natural tone gradation, a low contrast developer is needed !

After stop bath I open lights (as it can be done and I do with any reversal) and see metallic silver and silver halide, it is correct because if I fix it I obtain a normal negative, but if I apply bleach (permanganate or dichromate) metallic silver goes away but halide also does, when it should stay.

I'd like to see that example please, if possible, to know what results can be obtained !!

Thanks in advance

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Attachment 153173

This is a very quickly prepared .jpg from a Hasselblad/ Imacon scan I did yesterday. I opened the shadows in the scan, but otherwise it was straightforward to get a good scan. I've not removed any dust or sharpened it or done any other work other than resizing for web. I'm aware that it'll look pretty poor as an attachment - let me know if you want me to send you a higher res file.

I'd like to re-iterate that the PS13 Scala process is, apart from time in the 1st developer, standardised across all films. Thus Delta 400 gets 10 mins in 1st dev, and CMS gets 3 mins. They are able to get full film speed out out of Delta 400 & TMY II, and according to their PDF, will push TMY to 800. This suggests a pretty punchy low fog first developer with a silver solvent (probably a thiocyanate or similar) added to ensure ultra clean highlights.

The 120 Delta 100 & 400 I had developed at the same time turned out very nicely, as did the Silvermax I had processed on a previous occasion. They all have a superb Dmax & clean, crisp highlights.

The key thing to bear in mind is that you need a contrastier, cleaner working developer for reversal than you'd use for processing to a negative - Adotech is not the right choice here. Your problems are not down to the bleaching but rather an inadequate developing stage - poor Dmax, possible dichroic fog amongst other faults.

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Originally Posted by interneg

Attachment 153173

This is a very quickly prepared

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Many thanks for the information, it is of very high interest to me, I'd enjoy viewing it projected !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by interneg

Your problems are not down to the bleaching but rather an inadequate developing stage

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No... I'm pretty sure of it... nor Permanganate or Dichromate worked to me with CMS 20. To be sure I exposed 2 frames in a contact print frame, half of each frame was overexposed, and half of each was not exposed. Then I developed, so I had frames that half was pure metallic silver and the other half was pure halide.

One of them was fixed lights open and it resulted as expected, one half black and the other half transparent. The other one was bleached, also lights open, and halide was being washed out at near the same speed than metallic silver, when halide had to stay.

True that the developing has to to be adjusted, but bleach washed that delicate and monodisperse small halide chrystals... and also I tried different dilutions of bleach bath...

Yes... I tried DW-1, Dichromate, and it did not work, it removes CMS hallide at near same speed than removes metallic silver.

Those grains are very small, even fixer can damage them after 30 seconds, CMS 20 datasheet says...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pere Casals

No... I'm pretty sure of it... nor Permanganate or Dichromate worked to me with CMS 20. To be sure I exposed 2 frames in a contact print frame, half of each frame was overexposed, and half of each was not exposed. Then I developed, so I had frames that half was pure metallic silver and the other half was pure halide.

One of them was fixed lights open and it resulted as expected, one half black and the other half transparent. The other one was bleached, also lights open, and halide was being washed out at near the same speed than metallic silver, when halide had to stay.

True that the developing has to to be adjusted, but bleach washed that delicate and monodisperse small halide chrystals... and also I tried different dilutions of bleach bath...

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Whether the grains are mono- or polydisperse is not really of concern here, what is of concern is whether they were fully developed or not. If they did not fully develop, they will get bleached out - this is what you are experiencing. A developer with a high reduction potential and a silver solvent (a thiocyanate or di-thia-octan-diol) is where you should be starting from. The first developer from a 6-bath E6 may be a place to start from (I would not be surprised if the Scala process has remarkable similarities to E6, barring colour developer and final bleaching stages).

You should also look into what Ron Mowrey (Photo Engineer) says in these posts about reversal processing: http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?...9/#post-724203 and http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?...9/#post-724205

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pere Casals

Thanks for the The Photostudio13 information... I'll consider to have a benchmark, anyway I'm interested in developing it myself.

I also tried with PQ Universal, it is in the reversal recipe from Ilford.

As first developer I used Adotech II, consider that CMS is microfilm and it renders extreme contrast as it is monodisperse, so all grains are of similar size so there is no natural tone gradation, a low contrast developer is needed !

After stop bath I open lights (as it can be done and I do with any reversal) and see metallic silver and silver halide, it is correct because if I fix it I obtain a normal negative, but if I apply bleach (permanganate or dichromate) metallic silver goes away but halide also does, when it should stay.

I'd like to see that example please, if possible, to know what results can be obtained !!

Thanks in advance

---

Read Thomas' link carefully with the discussion we had about reversal processing...

I'm wondering if the emulsion of CMS might be too thin for reversal processing??? (Old school thicker emulsion films tend to work better...)

Steve K

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Originally Posted by interneg

The first developer from a 6-bath E6 .

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Perhaps, I ask... can the first developer of a 3 bath E-6 kit also work?

Tetenal Colortec E-6: "The film reversal takes place during the colour development. Bleaching and fixing are in a combined bleach fixer",

So first developer bath of the 6-Bath may be equivalent to the 3 bath kit one, as both are only silver developers... (I've Colortec in the shelf...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by interneg

You should also look into what Ron Mowrey (Photo Engineer) says in these posts about reversal processing

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Thanks for the links, good information, I'll read it twice.

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Originally Posted by LabRat

I'm wondering if the emulsion of CMS might be too thin for reversal processing??? (Old school thicker emulsion films tend to work better...)

Steve K

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Yes, it's very thin, anyway it is done by a copule of labs with "scala process" with impressive results.

CMS grains are very small, ISO 3 or 6 tipical, (even it is shot at ISO 12 or 20) so they have a large surface vs mass relationship, any harm a bleach bath do to halide chrystals if multiplied by a big factor when reversing CMS 20 microfilm material, compared to common pictorial films... what can be tolerated for other films destroys CMS 20, even fixing more than 30 seconds may destroy highlights.


I'll read again Thomas' link, thanx

Regards
Pere

It might be worth looking back to reversal processes intended for Tech Pan; there are similarities between that film and the document films that are the basis of CMS 20, including the use of very low contrast process for negatives. Kodak used to sell a reversal kit intended specifically for Tech Pan, but there were also a number of "off the shelf" processes, including use of self-fogging second developers for either black or sepia image (the latter was approximately use sepia toner). Key in all of these was the first developer, but I don't recall details of the process (it's been close to thirty years since I read up on it).

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Originally Posted by Donald Qualls

It might be worth looking back to reversal processes intended for Tech Pan; there are similarities between that film and the document films that are the basis of CMS 20, including the use of very low contrast process for negatives. Kodak used to sell a reversal kit intended specifically for Tech Pan, but there were also a number of "off the shelf" processes, including use of self-fogging second developers for either black or sepia image (the latter was approximately use sepia toner). Key in all of these was the first developer, but I don't recall details of the process (it's been close to thirty years since I read up on it).

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Thanks for the clue Donald,

I've searched and I found a Tech Pan process: http://www.tech-diy.com/reversal_formulas.htm

I found this formula for the Dichromate bleach bath:

Bleach: Add to 1 litre water 9.5 g Potassium Dichromate and 66g Sodium Bisulfate and stir until dissolved.


This is different from the general DW-1 of the Cookbook I was using

DW-1
Bleach Bath
(David Wood)
Potassium bichromate (Dichromate), anhydrous, 6.0 g
Water to make 1.0 liter
Sulfuric acid, concentrate, 12.0 ml


I'll try it. Thanks again.


Regards,

Pere Casals

Pere, if you don't have yet enough ideas, take a look at the Ian Grant's post in APUG for some more thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Domingo A. Siliceo

Pere, if you don't have yet enough ideas, take a look at the Ian Grant's post in APUG for some more thoughts.

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Many thanks, following your link I found this interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvGCaZy_kUY

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Domingo A. Siliceo

Pere, if you don't have yet enough ideas, take a look at the Ian Grant's post in APUG for some more thoughts.

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I'd also add a couple of other things I've just remembered - it's a bad idea to use a thiocyanate containing developer with a permanganate bleach (risk of liberating cyanide) - thus why Kodak changed D94 (which contains thiocyanate) to D94a (which uses D-TOD) when they went from R9 (dichromate) to R10 (permanganate) bleach. You should read http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?...-bleach.65708/ as it goes over the potential dangers of thiocyanates & permanganates mixing.

Kodak do offer a Motion Picture BW reversal development kit -http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion...ls/default.htm with the above developers & bleaches, however it is designed to make 15 US gallons.

http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?...ure-film.5653/ has the formula for D94a

Quote:

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Originally Posted by interneg

I'd also add a couple of other things I've just remembered - it's a bad idea to use a thiocyanate containing developer with a permanganate bleach (risk of liberating cyanide) - thus why Kodak changed D94 (which contains thiocyanate) to D94a (which uses D-TOD) when they went from R9 (dichromate) to R10 (permanganate) bleach. You should read http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?...-bleach.65708/ as it goes over the potential dangers of thiocyanates & permanganates mixing.

Kodak do offer a Motion Picture BW reversal development kit -http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion...ls/default.htm with the above developers & bleaches, however it is designed to make 15 US gallons.

http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?...ure-film.5653/ has the formula for D94a

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Many thanks for the links, I'm to use dichromate as bleach, taking necessary care (and end mixing used developer to reduce chrome later...) instead thiocyanate I'm to use tiosulfate at first.

Thanks to cinematographers we still have this asset as a benchmark, but the 15 gallons...

I'm to read those links, thanks again

Hi,
I'm new here. Could you please let me know if you have any good results with Adox CMS 20 II?

I developed a couple of slides in Ilford PQ Universal 1+5 with 8g hypo 1 min 45 sec as longer development removes emulsion. Anyhow, a colour of developer changed to slightly black, which was not a good sign as it should be slightly green, and it turned out that emulsion started removing (even at 1 min. 45 sec) but insignificantly. For bleaching (around 45 sec) I use potassium bichromate 10 g with sulfuric acid (conc.) 10 ml per 1l of water.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

Hi,
I'm new here. Could you please let me know if you have any good results with Adox CMS 20 II?

I developed a couple of slides in Ilford PQ Universal 1+5 with 8g hypo 1 min 45 sec as longer development removes emulsion. Anyhow, a colour of developer changed to slightly black, which was not a good sign as it should be slightly green, and it turned out that emulsion started removing (even at 1 min. 45 sec) but insignificantly. For bleaching (around 45 sec) I use potassium bichromate 10 g with sulfuric acid (conc.) 10 ml per 1l of water.

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CMS20 runs well (if rather contrastily) in the old Agfa Scala process - the first developer of which seems to be disclosed here , specifically the following:

4.5 g hydroquinone
11.0 g Potassium Sulphite
41.7 g Potassium Carbonate
1.5 g Sodium Carbonate
5.5 g Potassium Hydroxide
2.0 g Nitrilotriacetic acid
1.6 g Potassium Bromide
67 mg Benztriazole
3.8 g. N-methyl-4-aminophenyl-hydrogen Sulphate (metol)
0.4 ml hydroxyethane-diphosphonic acid
1.2 g Polyethylene Glycol, molecular weight 1500
2.0 g Sulphuric acid
made up with water; pH 10.2

There are several interesting aspects, but the main thing to note (which may be important for the successful handling of CMS 20) is that there is no grain solvent, rather there is a development accelerator (the PEG-1500) & that it is an MQ developer (in this form). The problem with a highly monodisperse film like CMS 20 (that may actually have more in common with a paper emulsion than a film emulsion - ie chloride/ high chloride content) is that a solvent developer will effectively act like a weak monobath at a certain point, slowing/ stopping development rather than allowing all the silver to be developed. PQ Universal might make a good starting point, though you may need to experiment with various molecular weights of PEG (not Polypropylene Glycol that some use to mix Pyrocat in) to maximise the effect.

Thank you. This is an impressive answer. I'm not a qualified chemist, rather an amateur. As I understand the major failure of my approach is about adding hypo/grain solvent and I should rather apply PEG-1500.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

Thank you. This is an impressive answer. I'm not a qualified chemist, rather an amateur. As I understand the major failure of my approach is about adding hypo/grain solvent and I should rather apply PEG-1500.

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Excessive solvency might be the cause of the problem - or it might not. That CMS 20 runs in Scala, but fails in other reversal systems tends to suggest that a development accelerator, rather than a silver solvent might be the answer. Unfortunately, I can't immediately suggest what the right PEG (could be as low a molecular weight as 400, or as high as 4000) might be for PQ Universal - you will need to experiment until you get acceptable reversal & highlights. If you try the above formula & use de-ionised/ distilled water, I think you could probably get away without the nitriloacetic acid and the hydroxyethane-diphosphonic acid. I am planning to look into reversing sheet CMS 20 for darkroom purposes later this year (single step separation negatives from colour negatives), so I intend to look into using PQ Universal as a first developer & the amount of PEG that might need to be added.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

Hi,
I'm new here. Could you please let me know if you have any good results with Adox CMS 20 II?

I developed a couple of slides in Ilford PQ Universal 1+5 with 8g hypo 1 min 45 sec as longer development removes emulsion. Anyhow, a colour of developer changed to slightly black, which was not a good sign as it should be slightly green, and it turned out that emulsion started removing (even at 1 min. 45 sec) but insignificantly. For bleaching (around 45 sec) I use potassium bichromate 10 g with sulfuric acid (conc.) 10 ml per 1l of water.

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I've dabbled with reversal processing of Adox CMS 20ii. I used home brew ID-62 as the first developer without any halide solvent and I got very decent results. I used copper sulphate + sodium chloride bleach. Others have had problems with this film when using stronger bleaches like dichromate and permanganate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by interneg

CMS20 runs well (if rather contrastily) in the old Agfa Scala process - the first developer of which seems to be disclosed here , specifically the following:

4.5 g hydroquinone
11.0 g Potassium Sulphite
41.7 g Potassium Carbonate
1.5 g Sodium Carbonate
5.5 g Potassium Hydroxide
2.0 g Nitrilotriacetic acid
1.6 g Potassium Bromide
67 mg Benztriazole
3.8 g. N-methyl-4-aminophenyl-hydrogen Sulphate (metol)
0.4 ml hydroxyethane-diphosphonic acid
1.2 g Polyethylene Glycol, molecular weight 1500
2.0 g Sulphuric acid
made up with water; pH 10.2

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After being recommended to use this developer in reversal processing on photrio, I've used it as first developer for some B&W films (but not on Adox CMS 20ii or the original Scala reversal film). It works fine but is no magic bullet. Other well-known first developers give similar results.

I'll try on Monday/Tuesday PQ Universal with PEG-1500 and the same bleaching as a starting point. I wonder on timing since 1min 45 sec with hypo was too much.

Even 7 min 30 sec is not enough. A picture is visible but very dark.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

Even 7 min 30 sec is not enough. A picture is visible but very dark.

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Could be due to underexposure. What is your exposure index for this film? It won't give the box speed of 20 in anything other than Adotec developer. I rated the film at 6 and got pretty decent slides.

20 ISO, it can be underexposure, yet, the attempt with hypo produced a proper exposure. Maybe I should double PEG or add a bit of hypo, say 0.5g per 1 liter. What do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

20 ISO, it can be underexposure, yet, the attempt with hypo produced a proper exposure. Maybe I should double PEG or add a bit of hypo, say 0.5g per 1 liter. What do you think?

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PEG isn't a magic bullet IMO. Increasing the proportion of an ingredient beyond what is recommended can potentially cause unintended effects. You can try adding hypo, but it may reduce density in shadows and reduce overall contrast. The last thing you want is a slide that has clear highlights but low contrast. Why not give additional exposure and see what you get?

It's hard keeping people standstill at 6 ISO but I guess I can try both approaches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raghu Kuvempunagar

I've dabbled with reversal processing of Adox CMS 20ii. I used home brew ID-62 as the first developer without any halide solvent and I got very decent results. I used copper sulphate + sodium chloride bleach. Others have had problems with this film when using stronger bleaches like dichromate and permanganate.

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How much time do you bleach in copper sulphate-sodium chloride?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

How much time do you bleach in copper sulphate-sodium chloride?

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4-5 minutes. But you should test with a small strip and determine the time required.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raghu Kuvempunagar

4-5 minutes. But you should test with a small strip and determine the time required.

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Please note that bleaching with copper sulphate-sodium chloride is a two step process unlike dichromate/permanganate. See this thread for more details: https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread...bleach.137943/

Noted. I see it also works good with TMax.

With Ilford PQ Universal + 1.2g PEG-1500 + 0.5g sodium thiosulfate - 12 min first development. Transparencies are very very good, but exposure has to be at 6 ISO. I was testing on sheet films which expired two months ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

With Ilford PQ Universal + 1.2g PEG-1500 + 0.5g sodium thiosulfate - 12 min first development. Transparencies are very very good, but exposure has to be at 6 ISO. I was testing on sheet films which expired two months ago.

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Congratulations! Would you mind sharing the scanned images if it is not too much of a problem?

Thank you. I'll send you a sample as soon as I take something else than family pictures.

I am interested in your complete reversal process, with chemistry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

Thank you. I'll send you a sample as soon as I take something else than family pictures.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tin Can

I am interested in your complete reversal process, with chemistry

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I'm not Malanov but this is the process which gave me very decent results for Adox CMS 20ii in 135 format, in case you're interested in knowing:

EI: 6 and sometimes 8
Processing temperature: 23C
Tank: Paterson System IV two reels

1. Two minutes presoak in tap water. Initial thirty seconds agitation.
2. Four minutes in First Developer. Initial thirty seconds agitation followed by three inversions every thirty seconds.
3. One minute slow rinse in tap water followed by wash.
4. 4-5 minutes in Copper Sulphate bleach. Continuous gentle agitation.
5. Wash. (Film should look pale throughout.)
6. 3-5 minutes in 2% Ammonia solution. Continuous gentle agitation.
7. Wash. (Film should show a light coloured halide positive image.)
8. 2 minutes in 2% Sodium Sulphite solution. Intermittent gentle agitation. (Film should show a light coloured halide positive image.)
9. Light exposure.
10. 5 minutes in second developer. Initial thirty seconds agitation followed by three inversions every thirty seconds.
11. Wash. (Film should show a strong silver positive image.)
12. Fix + Wash + Dry

First Developer:
Water: 500ml
Phenidone 1%: 10ml (equivalent to 0.1g)
Sodium Sulphite: 25g
Potassium Bromide: 0.45g
Hydroquinone: 2.25g
Sodium Carbonate: 20g
Sodium Hydroxide: 1.125g
Water to make: 600ml

Second Developer:
I use the first developer also as the second developer for this film.

Bleach:
Water: 750ml
Copper Sulphate: 50g
Sodium Chloride: 50g
Sodium Hydrosulphate: 35g
Water to make: 1000ml

I use gloves in all steps and mask+goggles while handling Ammonia.

Unlike dichromate and permanganate bleaches, bleaching with Copper Sulphate involves two steps. First the silver image is converted into Silver Chloride and then the Chloride is removed by Ammonia.

Thank you, well presented and easy to comprehend

I copied the data and printed it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tin Can

I am interested in your complete reversal process, with chemistry

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I developed one more set of sheets. The process is repetitive. Generally, I use chemicals and steps of Ilford reversal process, except for first developer (1.2g PEG-1500 and 0.5 hypo) and bleach (45 sec in dichromate instead of permanganate).

Spot metering on face otherwise skin tones are not accurate.

I also have good results with Kodak HC-110 at 40-42C (100-105F) 8min. 30 sec. ISO 6. I even prefer it over PQ Universal.
Copper sulfate works as indicated by Raghu Kuvempunagar; thank you.

For those who are following this thread, there is a new Adox reversal kit which is compatible with CMS 20 II:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread...al-kit.179629/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

I also have good results with Kodak HC-110 at 40-42C (100-105F) 8min. 30 sec. ISO 6. I even prefer it over PQ Universal.

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This is very interesting, especially the high temperature processing. Which dilution did you use?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malanov

Copper sulfate works as indicated by Raghu Kuvempunagar; thank you.

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I'm glad it worked for you. Thanks for confirming.

It was dilution B.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oren Grad

For those who are following this thread, there is a new Adox reversal kit which is compatible with CMS 20 II:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread...al-kit.179629/

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Thx. Very interesting.

The second bottle of Adox kit seems to contain a permanganate bleach.

Is this something that could help you out?

https://www.fotoimpex.com/chemistry/...rocessing.html