LF ballhead sought- current offerings questions

I'm starting to rethink my resistance to ballheads for LF work, especially the ones that allow independent 2D tilting. What are current options? Does Arca Swiss make a ball head than can be tilted along just one axis at a time?

I know FLM has several models, but can't find much user feedback about those. Anyone using one of the FLM 'FT' models with success? Their load ratings seem crazy, so not sure how to properly size one. I'm currently using a 5x7, about 10lbs max with my biggest lens, and no plans to format jump. Coming from a Ries double-tilt, a good panning base would also be really nice.


The Arca P0 looks interesting in that it's also a leveling base, even though it doesn't appear that you can isolate the tilt. Also, not sure how awkward the panning function and other knobs would be so close to the bottom of a field camera. They look simple, light-weight and low-profile, which is great. Anyone using one of these?

http://youtu.be/wP24yVv6on0

Ballheads for LF? De-evolution, going backwards.

So you have not had much success with them then? And by all means, feel free to speak of actual experience instead of knee jerk biases.

Colin,
For more information, reviews and videos on FLM ball heads, see the website: www.flmcanada.com
There's plenty of information there.

There are plenty of threads here about ball heads vs. 3-way heads for LF use, and there are a few top-shelf ball heads that work very well for LF; they are worth a closer look.
If you think you might be interested in getting a ball head for your 5x7, you should definitely try it for yourself to see if it works for you. Nobody else can tell you what's right for you and your working methods.

Hey, I'm just looking for folks with experience with any of these ballheads, or suggestions of ones they have used with success. If you think that's out of line or a hassle, just don't respond to the thread. I realize that only I can decide what is right for me, but user feedback is frequently helpful in making an informed decision, especially since I live in a remote rural area where I don't have access to big photo suppliers where I could actually try things out in person.

As I said, I'm just rethinking my own biases against ballheads at this point. Not looking for tips on deciding between the different types of heads. I currently use a Ries double-tilt which is great, but doesn't work as well on Gitzo. Not at all interested in three way head, I have used a G1570, which I didn't like very much.

Incidentally, some of these ballheads are rather new, I think the P0 was last updated in April '14, so there isn't much info about them in the archives. I think FLM recently updated some of their line as well, not sure. I know these myriad ballhead threads are a real annoyance, but the offerings do frequently change.

Hi Colin,

Ari sent me one of the FLM heads to review, which I'm still working on, and I spent a number of weeks with one. Arca used to have a B2 with separate controls for each axis, but I'm not familiar with their current line.

I did find the axis locking feature on the FLM head to be useful, especially with larger cameras at max extension. I used my 8x10 Kodak D2 with an extension rail. The main issue with a ball head and a very large camera is that when you unlock the head, you have to be holding the camera very securely with one hand, and you have to be able to move only in the direction needed. This can be really challenging with most ball heads. It's very important to make sure the camera is balanced properly on the head.

I compared the FLM to my standard ballhead, and Arca B1. Two things stand out. First, the main locking knob on the FLM has a very fine thread. That means it allows very precise and progressive locking of the head. You don't need to crank it all the way one way or the other. As such, there's less of a danger of loosening the head too much, allowing the camera to crash. Second, the locking axis is useful. My method was to point the camera down a bit in the direction of the notch in the tripod head. I'd then pan to my desired framing, and raise the camera to the desired height.

Overall, the FLM head impressed me. If I was in the market for a new ball head, I'd give them a very serious look, especially since Ari is such a helpful guy. The two features I mentioned are better than my admittedly older Arca.

Awesome, that's great info-thanks a bunch Peter! Looking forward to reading the review when you are done with it. Seriously leaning towards a CB48 or 58, but the 121lb rating on the 58mm ball seems like overkill for 5x7.

Agree with what Peter has said. I would add though the difference in movements; on the one hand, holding the camera and shifting it and, on the other hand, the extra leverage of a handle acting as a bit of a lever.
The Flm works very well. In the studio, the leverage of the handles of my 3 way head are nice.

Colin, I would ignore the weight ratings. What 5x7 will you be using? I've not used a Ries head. What about it don't you like?

Peter,

Ries heads are intended for use with the Ries legs design, with a head-mounting bolt that passes completely through the leg yoke, which has a knob that's accessible from below. Essentially, that's the only way to pan a Ries head without using some sort of supplemental panning base- by loosening this knob, panning, re-tightening. Works fine for the Ries and any surveyor-style tripod, and I really do like the setup very much for landscapes and such.

But I have a backup Gitzo tripod that's mostly for indoor use, since my surveyor tripod is usually dirty, wet, or just scuffs up the floors with the spikes. Usually I'll swap the Ries head out, but would prefer to use a head that's a better match for the Gitzo legs, since I with this arrangement I can only pan the double-tilt head by loosening and spinning the center column on the Gitzo.

Hope all that made sense. The 5x7 is a homemade one. Not lightweight, but not particularly heavy either.

Was the 58mm version what you were using for 8x10? Thanks again for the info.

Got it. It was an FLM CB-48FTII, which is a bit smaller than my Arca B1. For your use, I'd lean towards the bigger head.

I've used a Ries A series tripod with the A series head with my 8x10 and 8x20 and I am very fond of them. However, I have had very bad experiences checking equipment and carry on for the large 8x20 is not very feasible. So, I wanted something lighter for use with a smaller format that I could use when travelling by air. I recently got an FLM tripod and head from Ari. These are very well made tripods and heads. They are very steady and solid. I was dubious about ball heads because I need the individual axes locks. The tilt lock function on the FLM head works very well and actually makes it as straightforward to use as individual axes lock designs. These are very thoughtfully designed.

I should also mention that the workflow method, or the 'feel' of working with them, is slightly different. I think that is what Ari meant when he was suggesting trying it to see if it works for you. For what it is worth, I believe it only takes a bit of time to get used to the 'feel' and keep in mind that I have years with the Ries and barely any time with the FLM.

I should also give a shout out to Ari - a gentleman and a pleasure to deal with.

Cheers, DJ

Thanks DJ, very helpful. The feedback from this thread is really confirming what I'd hoped would be true, so just about ready to order one.

That Arca Swiss P0 is still nagging though. Unusual designs like that always lead me down the garden path... I'm tying not to let myself get suckered in.

Didn't manufacturers and retailers used to specify what the intended format range of their tripods and heads were, and not just by weight? The FLM site is helpful, but doesn't list the diameter of their heads at the base and platform. You can sort of guess at these sizes by the diameter of the ball I suppose. But it would be nice to know the exact diameter at the base and the head, to see how well it matches up with tripod and camera size. The panning base flares out at the bottom and the plain/non-QR platforms look undersized on the larger heads, so it's difficult to tell what type of cameras they are intended for.

Anyway, sorry to ramble. Thanks again all for the help with this. It's been 10 years since I shopped for a tripod head, and much has changed.

I don't think I have that measurement. The 48 looked fine on a Gitzo series 3. It looked a little smallish sitting on a series 5.

One thing to remember, especially if you have a field camera, is how stiff the bed of your camera is. A friend of mine has a Zone VI 8x10. He uses it with a Really Right Stuff Bh-55, a head in the same class as those we've been talking about. The head is plenty strong, but with a small quick release plate on the camera, he had sharpness problems. In looking the system over, it was due to flex in the 8x10's bed. His fix was to use a long Arca Swiss compatible mounting plate.

Yeah, that's a really good point- I've gotten really accustomed to having the 4"x4" platform of the Ries head. The bed on my camera seems really rigid, but then again what wouldn't on that size of platform? Before I buy anything maybe I'll make a simple spacer disc to emulate the size of the FLM platform, to see if I have any flex or vibration issues. I'm not wild about QR plates, but might have to reconsider that bias as well.

I have a mill and suppose I could make an oversized adapter plate out of aluminum if needed, but would prefer not to have to do any mods on a $500+ head.

This is what I use on my 8x10
http://www.jobu-design.com/Surefoot-NX4--70_p_28.html
then the longer and more old fashioned an arca compatible clamp you put on the head the better.

Thank you Bill, good to know that there is an aftermarket plate already available that will fit.

The RRS ball heads are well made although they don't isolate the movement in any plane. I use their smallest BH-25 with my 4x5 Chamonix. The FLM heads look really interesting if I was buying anew. Arca Swiss makes the D4 which is a completely geared head fairly light weight that I would say is good for 5x7 - another direction of course. Ries heads only really work with their tripod and are overkill for most applications except ULF given the weight penalty of the wooden tripod. My 2 cents.

There are a whole bunch of Arca compatible plates available. A quick search on Ebay will bring up a tremendous amount of sizes. I just bought an 8" one for use on a macro rig. If your camera has two screw sockets, you can use two screws to secure an Arca style plate to the bottom. You'd never have to worry about the camera spinning on the head.

For those looking for a less expensive solution, I've been eying the Vanguard SBH-300. Under $100 retail and rated up to 70 lbs. Not sure, but I imagine it would work ok for 5x7. 8x10 would be much more difficult. I think it'd be perfect for 4x5. I'm currently getting by with a smaller ballhead but would like a larger ball for finer adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Colin Graham

Didn't manufacturers and retailers used to specify what the intended format range of their tripods and heads were, and not just by weight? The FLM site is helpful, but doesn't list the diameter of their heads at the base and platform. You can sort of guess at these sizes by the diameter of the ball I suppose. But it would be nice to know the exact diameter at the base and the head, to see how well it matches up with tripod and camera size. The panning base flares out at the bottom and the plain/non-QR platforms look undersized on the larger heads, so it's difficult to tell what type of cameras they are intended for.

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For that information, you can see our catalogue: http://www.flmcanada.com/flm-catalogue.html
Or see the chart at the bottom of this page: http://www.flmcanada.com/ball-heads.html

The Photoclam Gold is an outstanding product. I've been using two of them for a couple of years now and have no desire to change. They're not that terribly expensive either.

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Originally Posted by Ari

For that information, you can see our catalogue: http://www.flmcanada.com/flm-catalogue.html
Or see the chart at the bottom of this page: http://www.flmcanada.com/ball-heads.html

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Thanks, I didn't notice that chart or the catalog on the site earlier, thanks for pointing them out. It looks like FLM uses the same size platform on most of their heads, about 45mm or so. Does that sound about right?

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Originally Posted by Colin Graham

Thanks, I didn't notice that chart or the catalog on the site earlier, thanks for pointing them out. It looks like FLM uses the same size platform on most of their heads, about 45mm or so. Does that sound about right?

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No, they all use different sizes, ranging from 55mm bases to 78mm bases. Yes, they are slightly flared for easier reading.
For me, the sweet spot is the 48mm-size ball head. It is light and compact, as are the 38mm and 43mm. The 58mm represents a significant jump in size and bulk, not so much in weight.
I can use the 48 with my Toyo 810M if I have to, but I prefer to use the 58 for the extra bit of insurance it gives with a camera that heavy.
I think with your 5x7, you would be quite happy with a 48mm-size ball head.

I'm talking about the camera attachment platform, not the base. The platform with the cork surface. I did see the base diameter sizes on the chart, so thanks again for pointing that out.
I would still like to try to use this without a QR plate if possible, so if I knew the size of the CB-48FT's platform, I could test my camera's rigidity by making a mockup. If it's too small for my rig, I'll go the with one of the FLM head/QR adapter bundles that will accept the longer adapter plates mentioned earlier. In the picture of the 48mm ballhead, the plaftform looks slightly bigger, so I'll just try 50mm and see how that works for my 5x7.
And thanks for the recommendation on the appropriate model, that's enormously helpful.

http://www.flmcanada.com/uploads/5/7...961685.jpg?165

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Originally Posted by Ari

No, they all use different sizes, ranging from 55mm bases to 78mm bases. Yes, they are slightly flared for easier reading.
For me, the sweet spot is the 48mm-size ball head. It is light and compact, as are the 38mm and 43mm. The 58mm represents a significant jump in size and bulk, not so much in weight.
I can use the 48 with my Toyo 810M if I have to, but I prefer to use the 58 for the extra bit of insurance it gives with a camera that heavy.
I think with your 5x7, you would be quite happy with a 48mm-size ball head.

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I use the FLM and I think it's great.

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Originally Posted by Colin Graham

I'm talking about the camera attachment platform, not the base. The platform with the cork surface. I did see the base diameter sizes on the chart, so thanks again for pointing that out.
I would still like to try to use this without a QR plate if possible, so if I knew the size of the CB-48FT's platform, I could test my camera's rigidity by making a mockup. If it's too small for my rig, I'll go the with one of the FLM head/QR adapter bundles that will accept the longer adapter plates mentioned earlier. In the picture of the 48, the plaftform looks slightly bigger, so I'll just try 50mm and see how that works for my 5x7.
And thanks for the recommendation on the appropriate model, that's enormously helpful.

http://www.flmcanada.com/uploads/5/7...961685.jpg?165

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Hi again,
Yes, you're right, the cork platform is the same size on all ball heads (45mm diameter), as is the stud screw (reversible 3/8" and 1/4"). And FYI, we use a cork/rubber hybrid: http://www.flmcanada.com/faqs
Our normal procedure is to remove the cork/rubber platform, and attach a QR clamp using mild thread glue. This offers the best stability for using a ball head. And, as others have pointed out, the larger the contact surface area between your camera and the QR plate, the more stability you'll have when attaching it to the clamp.
As for the size recommendation, the factory doesn't test with view cameras, so the recommendations come from my own experience. The 810M with lens and film holder can easily surpass 20lbs, so the CB-58 is the best choice for that.
I've used both the Kodak Master 8x10 and Kodak Commercial 8x10 with the CB-48 with great success, it feels very secure with that size ball head, so you should have no trouble using that on your 5x7.

Oh, and I added those charts yesterday, you're not seeing things. :) You requested information that was buried in the catalogue, I just made it more visible.

Great, thanks Ari!

I'm being fairly obstinate about QR plates and clamps, but they've always just bugged me, so I'll just go through the motions to prove to myself that I do need one. I do have a pretty massive tripod plate on my camera, so who knows, might be able to get away with the 45mm platform. Thanks again for the help.

Ok, Colin, keep us posted as to your progress. Good luck!

Colin,

Here's an alternative option for a quick release system. It is NOT cheap price-wise, but neither is a broken camera on the ground ;)!

http://store.zacuto.com/tripod-adapter-plate/

http://store.zacuto.com/qr-dovetail/

It all depends on the type of camera. With my Toyo 45, the camera is plenty rigid just screwed into a standard head. With my Kodak D2 8x10, it needs all the help it can get. Some cameras, such as Ebonies, have large metal plates on the bottom. I wouldn't worry about a camera like that either. A nice thing about heads like the FLM is that you can change out the mounting platform if needed.

My main worry is I carry the camera slung on a tripod over long distances, and the stress on the camera/head connection is mitigated somewhat by the 4"x4" platform on my Ries head.
I'm fairly confident the connection on the non-QR FLM head would be fine for indoor shooting, but maybe not such a good idea for carrying it this way.
Right now I'm only planning on using the ball head on my indoor Gitzo, but if I like it I know I'll be tempted to retire the Ries head altogether. But this might be wildly inappropriate for a ball head.

Does the bottom of the camera have a metal plate? If so, how big?

10 x 15cm.

I just mocked-up a 45mm disc platform on an ancient Gitzo ball head and the camera bed is still quite rigid. I'll probably never feel comfortable carrying it slung while connected to such a small platform, but then again carrying it like that would probably work against any ball head's design strengths, so not sure if adding an adapter plate would improve the situation.

Just to be clear, I don't expect any head to work for all situations, but it's good to try and anticipate the limitations as well as the possibilities.

That's a good sized plate. I wouldn't worry about it.

I tried hard to fall in love with a ball head with my 5X7 Deardorf, but in the end I could not make the relationship work and went back to my trusty Manfrotto 410 geared head. I tried a few nice ball heads but I just could not get used to using them.

That said, I thought the FLM head was wonderful and I have a good friend who uses one for his 8X10 (and maybe his 11X1 as well). Also, I have another good friend who has the Arca d4 and he swears it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It comes down to what is comfortable to work with and what fits into your budget.

Austin's would be a good one, don't imagine the glue is a real problem and you won't loose to much if it isn't your style.
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...66#post1221866

Avoid Arca-Swiss ballheads. Terrible, dreadful, monstrously mis-engineered designs.

Yeah, I saw that, but that's a 43mm, and it doesn't appear to have the 2d tilt control. And it looked to me like the 1/4" side of thread was showing, instead of the 3/8". Also the words glue, thread and pliers all used in the same paragraph made me nervous, ha. (No offense intended to the seller, who was very honest about it).

Still, $100 is a great bargain, and it was that very thread that started me down this path.

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Originally Posted by cowanw

Austin's would be a good one, don't imagine the glue is a real problem and you won't loose to much if it isn't your style.
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...66#post1221866

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Eric, thanks for weighing in as well. How heavy is your V5, btw? I noticed the 'new' (ahem) Deardorff Special is listed at 7lbs, which is what my 5x7 weighs.

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Originally Posted by Eric Biggerstaff

I tried hard to fall in love with a ball head with my 5X7 Deardorf, but in the end I could not make the relationship work and went back to my trusty Manfrotto 410 geared head. I tried a few nice ball heads but I just could not get used to using them.

That said, I thought the FLM head was wonderful and I have a good friend who uses one for his 8X10 (and maybe his 11X1 as well). Also, I have another good friend who has the Arca d4 and he swears it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It comes down to what is comfortable to work with and what fits into your budget.

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Originally Posted by Toyon

Avoid Arca-Swiss ballheads. Terrible, dreadful, monstrously mis-engineered designs.

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I've had my B1 for 20 years, and it's worked very well. Just recently, the rotation of the ball is getting a little sticky. I tried cleaning it, but it's time for a $100 service. One service every 20 years for a device that's used regularly in a variety of conditions seems pretty good to me.

Colin, if you'd consider a non-ball head, a Gitzo 1570M would be a good choice. It's what I normally use with an 8x10. The negative versus a ball head is that there are protruding handles.

Having bought QR plate systems for video cameras, this one looks downright economical! And Zacuto makes good stuff - not a well known name to the still camera fraternity, but quite well known in the video world.

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Originally Posted by Toyon

Avoid Arca-Swiss ballheads. Terrible, dreadful, monstrously mis-engineered designs.

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I have used an Arca Swiss B1 for over 20 years now and continue to use it for my Ebony 8x10 with not one problem. I can guarantee it gets used more than most ball heads out there and other looking like it has been beat up, it performs flawlessly. Like it much better than a Really Right Stuff ball head, but then that is just me. I have no problem using a ballhead with an 8x10, obviously some others dislike it.

I'd go with an overkill. Whether that's Arca, FLM, Markins, Novoflex or RRS.

Les

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Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

Ballheads for LF? De-evolution, going backwards.

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Hogwash. My ballhead gets my camera level infinitely faster than my 3-way pan tilt head ever could. It is far more stable to boot. I love my Ballhead and I'd never go back. FWIW, I have a plain jane Feisol ballhead and it is wonderful.

Colin, it was mentioned earlier in this thread (and for what it's worth) I'll put forward another suggestion for the Arca D4.

You said that you were looking for something with independent controls for each axis. Ball heads appealed to you for the smaller size as well. You also want to carry it over your shoulder. Two things you'd like about the D4 is that it's small and compact like a ball head yet operates like a pan and tilt head with gearing. Like a ball head there are no handles or protrusions to snag on objects. I can say firsthand the gearing is marvelous. It has two panning controls as well (not geared), one on the base and one where the camera attaches. The D4 holds my ten pound 5x7 camera with a 400mm 5.6 telephoto lens no problem. No blurriness in the negs.

I'd be a bit leery of carrying over ten pounds of camera on my shoulder with this head. The quick release is solid, but a lot of force would be placed on the internal gearing. It'd be much better to remove the camera. That's why the "quick" is in quick release, eh? :)

The D4 is horribly, horribly expensive. However if you're after small size and portability in a head with precision adjustments it is fabulous.

Konakoa,

What is the difference between the various d4 models. I see some are geared and some are manual, but I am not sure which would be the best one for LF. There is a few hundred dollars difference between some of the models.

Eric, from what I've seen the 'manual' D4 is exactly the same only without the gearing. Loosen a clamp, move the head, re-tighten. Each axis is independent just like a pan-tilt head. Think of the manual version as a pan-tilt head without the long handles.

There are several versions with different quick release systems. I went for the geared D4 with the 'classic' knob quick release system. The knob lets me use RRS plates without fuss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by konakoa

...the 'manual' D4 is exactly the same only without the gearing. Loosen a clamp, move the head, re-tighten. Each axis is independent just like a pan-tilt head. Think of the manual version as a pan-tilt head without the long handles...

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Yup, and a fine head the d4m would be, significantly lighter and less expensive than but comparable to a Linhof 3663, except...

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Originally Posted by konakoa

...There are several versions with different quick release systems. I went for the geared D4 with the 'classic' knob quick release system. The knob lets me use RRS plates without fuss.

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Some of us don't like screw knob clamps or the fiddly, loosening-prone Arca lever-release clamp, but do have and want to use Really Right Stuff (RRS) plates. Therefore, I'd like to mount a RRS lever-release clamp on a d4m. But Arca, in a fit of provincial arrogance, began using "permanent" thread locking epoxy on its clamps. Even if one were willing to purchase a d4m with Arca clamp and then throw the clamp away, it's not possible to remove that clamp without application of substantial heat, like from a torch. Not me!

Arca's "explanation" for this is that a very short M6 bolt is required to mount clamps on its heads. People were using longer M6 bolts and damaging the heads, which Arca then repaired. Instead of simply specifying the maximum permissible M6 mounting bolt length, Arca effectively "forbade" anyone from using any clamps not made by Arca. If and when Arca comes to its senses and offers and 'naked' d4m, or one that has its clamp attached with a bolt that's held in place using Loctite Blue or equivalent, I'll buy one. Until then, not a chance.

My approach to shedding some weight from the Linhof 3663 was to purchase an FLM CB-48FT. I removed the platform and mounted an RRS lever-release clamp on the stem. Here's my take on using that FLM head with view cameras.

While I always despised ball heads to support view cameras, I've found that the ability to use both levels simultaneously (via the adjustable mirror-cover) on my Ebony SV-57 makes positioning very easy. With the head's main lock minimum drag set appropriately (2.5 on its scale), it's a breeze to achieve level in both axes and lock everything down.

With a lighter camera where one cannot see both axes' levels at the same time, like my Phillips 4x5, the head's tilt lock comes into play. While the idea is innovative, I've found that at the head's lower main lock minimum drag setting necessary for this load (1.5 on its scale), even after locking the head's secondary tilt knob, there's some lateral creep when tilting the camera. It takes a couple of iterations to get things level. I've experimented with the head's tilt lock when my SV-57 is mounted and the higher drag setting cranked in. There's virtually no lateral creep in that situation. So, the feature seems to require a minimum amount of main lock drag to function well. I feel that the half pound weight reduction compared to my Linhof 3663 is worth the fiddling when shooting 4x5, but ultimately would love to move the RRS lever clamp to a d4m instead. :)

Bottom line: in my opinion, Colin should have no issue obtaining solid lock down and good independent axis control with an FLM ball head. I'd definitely recommend the CB-58FT for his 8x10, especially considering the way he carries it.

Here's another vote for the Arca-Swiss D4. If you can swing it, definitely opt for the geared version - super smooth, precise movement. Sal is correct about the permanent mounting of the release fixture, but I wanted the classic screw clamp, so that was not an issue. I would say that the D4 is perfect for 4x5 - perhaps a bit marginal (though useable) for 8x10.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura

Bottom line: in my opinion, Colin should have no issue obtaining solid lock down and good independent axis control with an FLM ball head. I'd definitely recommend the CB-58FT for his 8x10, especially considering the way he carries it.

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Thanks Sal. That's good to hear the FLM heads can be slung like that under load, so that's one less thing to worry about if I decide to retire the Ries and use the ball head for everything. Looking forward to getting the FLM when I have the funds. I use a 5x7, so I'm leaning towards the 48.

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Originally Posted by Peter J. De Smidt

Colin, if you'd consider a non-ball head, a Gitzo 1570M would be a good choice. It's what I normally use with an 8x10. The negative versus a ball head is that there are protruding handles.

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Peter, I did have a G1570 once for about a week- didn't much like it for the reasons you mention. But that giant camera platform was pretty nice.


Thanks again everyone for all the suggestions and advice.