Lee Filters: what's taking so long?

hey guys,

I'm not intending this on being a "rant", but I put an order into my local Calumet(LA branch) back in the beginning of the year for a 1 and 2 stop soft GND filter + foundation holder. I called up the other day, and the guy on the phone had no idea, just that my order was still "backordered".

I know these filters are getting more popular, which is good for LEE, but in the end, bad for those of us who would love to be able to use them when photographing. Now that I'm shooting more E-6 film(4x5 and 8x10), its even more important, to keep skies in check.

And after watching a video on youtube the other night

http://youtu.be/lMu_m203YaY

I'm now having some reservations on the end-quality of what my filters will actually be like. I was at first, expecting a more automated, and exacting process in producing these filters, but after watching the (IMO) "sloppy" techniques that are used to produce a soft graduated filter, and that it seems there isn't a "standard" time that the filter is in the dye, it seems that there will be less filters put in the trash bin if they were to run a more exacting process in terms of time and withdrawal rate, so that EVERY filter that is produced is EXACTLY the same, from rack(not just done 1 at a time, but possibly 3-4 at a time) to rack, and run to run.

seeing that lots of people are getting into using filters to balance skies with foreground on their digital cameras these days, you'd think they could speed up the process by re-designing their manufacturing methods...

but maybe its just me.

still fascinating how its done, but in the end, IMO, they could be done faster and more efficiently, and more exacting if they were to somehow "automate" the process some more, for better repeatability

wadda you think?

-Dan

I think the reason that these filters are of such high quality is the fast that they ARE handmade! I was amazed when I saw this video a couple of weeks ago and I have a better appreciation for the price and the backlog for them.

It's not just the filters. Lee foundation kits are sold out at every source. I've checked B&H and Adorama. My local shop says that they've been back ordered for quite some time.

That you don't understand that some folks are quite able to understand the process they do as daily work and can produce consistent work. There are many critics in the world and so few skilled people. Your work is no more important than the humble people that have a form of knowledge that contributes to you own understanding.if everything was automated from the begining there would be no room for your own creative statement, what ever it might be. So get use to it.

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Originally Posted by DanielStone

hey guys,

I'm not intending this on being a "rant", but I put an order into my local Calumet(LA branch) back in the beginning of the year for a 1 and 2 stop soft GND filter + foundation holder. I called up the other day, and the guy on the phone had no idea, just that my order was still "backordered".

I know these filters are getting more popular, which is good for LEE, but in the end, bad for those of us who would love to be able to use them when photographing. Now that I'm shooting more E-6 film(4x5 and 8x10), its even more important, to keep skies in check.

And after watching a video on youtube the other night

http://youtu.be/lMu_m203YaY

I'm now having some reservations on the end-quality of what my filters will actually be like. I was at first, expecting a more automated, and exacting process in producing these filters, but after watching the (IMO) "sloppy" techniques that are used to produce a soft graduated filter, and that it seems there isn't a "standard" time that the filter is in the dye, it seems that there will be less filters put in the trash bin if they were to run a more exacting process in terms of time and withdrawal rate, so that EVERY filter that is produced is EXACTLY the same, from rack(not just done 1 at a time, but possibly 3-4 at a time) to rack, and run to run.

seeing that lots of people are getting into using filters to balance skies with foreground on their digital cameras these days, you'd think they could speed up the process by re-designing their manufacturing methods...

but maybe its just me.

still fascinating how its done, but in the end, IMO, they could be done faster and more efficiently, and more exacting if they were to somehow "automate" the process some more, for better repeatability

wadda you think?

-Dan

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My suggestions would be:

- Try contacting Lee Filters USA directly at (800) 576-5055 to find out what is going on (they are located in Los Angeles). John Adler used to be the customer support/filter guru there; I haven't spoken to him in a number of years, but if he is still there he is a good guy and very knowledgeable.
- Check with Robert White in the UK to see if they have filters in stock. Prices are similar to the US and if you ship via the post or Parcel Force you won't have to pay international courier brokerage fees.
- Pay more and buy a filter holder on Ebay and new filters from Singh Ray. Singh Ray builds filters to order. Their web site says to allow ten business days before shipment, but I got my 4x6" neutral density grads considerably faster than that.

As for manufacturing methods, still photography filters are still a niche business. Certain filter types (ND grads, etc.) are still alive and well, but others (color correction filters, etc.) have gone away due to digital capture. If increased demand is permanent then the filter manufacturers will at some point expand or improve their processes to increase output.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DanielStone

...

I'm now having some reservations on the end-quality of what my filters will actually be like. I was at first, expecting a more automated, and exacting process in producing these filters, but after watching the (IMO) "sloppy" techniques that are used to produce a soft graduated filter, and that it seems there isn't a "standard" time that the filter is in the dye, it seems that there will be less filters put in the trash bin if they were to run a more exacting process in terms of time and withdrawal rate, so that EVERY filter that is produced is EXACTLY the same, from rack(not just done 1 at a time, but possibly 3-4 at a time) to rack, and run to run.
...
wadda you think?

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I agree with you Daniel. A few years ago I saw Lee grads being made on an episode of "How It's Made" and like you I was surprised by the lack of automation. The woman must have been dunking a soft grad (according to what was said in the YouTube video) and it was quite clear that the graduation/interface was not straight. At the time I was using Singh Ray filters; I suspect that their process also lacks automation because my 3-stop hard filter's interface is a few degrees off. When I purchased my Lee grads I inspected a number until I found a set of six I could live with. On the one hand it's hard to fault Lee because they seem to be quite successful, but the inconsistent and irregular results that they achieve with their handmade approach screams for automation.

Such lovely people. Wouldnt buy any other filter after watching that video. If you want automated stick to digital and automate yourself out of the process.

Oh, that's a fantastic video! Thanks for the link! I had no idea that they were molding their own polycarbonate. Now I understand why the prices are so dear, but it really is worth it.

well, it never seems to cease amazing me

I wasn't looking to start anything, I was just merely posting my opinion. Oh wait, that's gotten me into trouble before :).

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Originally Posted by mdm

...If you want automated stick to digital and automate yourself out of the process.

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jeez man, lighten up. If every lens was cut by hand on a machine, we'd all be up shi+'s creek! A little "automation" never hurt anyone. What about cars? Cutting an engine block by hand wouldn't work...

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I'm not too stinkish about having perfectly straight gradients(albeit that would be nice), but the DENSITY of those gradients is the thing I'm most concerned about. Yeah, a woman sitting over a dye bath for the past 20+ years, she's got to "know" what she's doing. Taking it to the densitometer and getting a reading on it, that's really precise... but I'm not trying to start an argument here, just merely stating something....

-Dan


lastly... I'm not faulting ANYONE for their working methods, just WHY they chose not to go with a more automated method(with withdrawal and agitation rates in this case for Graduated filters in particular). I could see them employing ALL the people shown in the video, maybe even more, and running some more automated lines, rather than doing 1 filter at a time, they could do 3-4, possibly more. And they'd ALL be the same. So if you needed a replacement, you wouldn't have to pick and choose between a few to see which one works best. I've worked at a pro camera store here in LA, and believe me, I've seen more than 3 .6 soft ND grads side by side(ALL Lee's, arrived at the same time), and none of them were like either of the others exactly. Close, but not exact. One was slightly yellow(to my eye), and when shooting with one vs the others, it showed more density(albeit a small amount) than the others(which were each different themselves from the others).

so... the point I'm trying to get at: well... never mind....

They had a problem with one of the machines in the factory last year,which has meant a massive backlog of orders.
I ordered a yellow filter last week and was told 4-5 months before delivery.

Terrific video and like mdm, I'm completely impressed with both the people and the process. Too bad I've had a full compliment of Cokins for years (very pleased) or I'd want to go with the Lee's just to support these folks.

Hand made filters? Dee-lightful!:D
It goes with my hand made 'dorff, my hand made Ries,and my hand made Goerz--a true digital kit! Only my kit encorporates ten digits, not just 1's and 0's. That makes it better,right? ;)

I ordered a 1 stop hard grad from Robert White in November, that was in stock. However, I also ordered a 2 stop hard grad and that arrived in late january. The big stopper (10 stops ND filter) I ordered in November arrived last february. Lee in the UK also has a backorder but there are regular updates regarding this on the Robert White site.

All the best, Frank
www.frankbunnik.zenfolio.com

In the video it was mentioned the larger sheets gives them four filters. When the lady is dying them it's a full sheet later cut into quarters.

I imagine the cost of automatic equipment would take them several years production to amortize.
Initial concept, design, prototyping, actual manufacture and proofing/testing/installing and debugging isn't done overnight and I suspect that by the time they're done building the machine, they've cut their workforce in half

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Leppanen

My suggestions would be:

- Try contacting Lee Filters USA directly at (800) 576-5055 to find out what is going on (they are located in Los Angeles). John Adler used to be the customer support/filter guru there; I haven't spoken to him in a number of years, but if he is still there he is a good guy and very knowledgeable.
- Check with Robert White in the UK to see if they have filters in stock. Prices are similar to the US and if you ship via the post or Parcel Force you won't have to pay international courier brokerage fees.
- Pay more and buy a filter holder on Ebay and new filters from Singh Ray. Singh Ray builds filters to order. Their web site says to allow ten business days before shipment, but I got my 4x6" neutral density grads considerably faster than that.

As for manufacturing methods, still photography filters are still a niche business. Certain filter types (ND grads, etc.) are still alive and well, but others (color correction filters, etc.) have gone away due to digital capture. If increased demand is permanent then the filter manufacturers will at some point expand or improve their processes to increase output.

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John Adler is still there. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago and ordered a soft focus set and a resin Orange 21 filter from him over the phone. He has also helped me get some of the harder to get ND filters and ND grad filters.

Wow. No need for automation, but some plain old-fashioned jigs would do the trick. Holding the sheet up by hand to test the hardness on the 4 corners could be made a whole lot more accurate and speedy with just a simple turntable. All that marking could be done with a large stamp. A simple rack to hold the grad filters while being dipped...

So many opportunities to do it faster and better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack Dahlgren

Wow. No need for automation, but some plain old-fashioned jigs would do the trick. Holding the sheet up by hand to test the hardness on the 4 corners could be made a whole lot more accurate and speedy with just a simple turntable. All that marking could be done with a large stamp. A simple rack to hold the grad filters while being dipped...

So many opportunities to do it faster and better.

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It's a good idea and it wouldn't take much to implement. I imagine a holding jig would also let them dip more than one sheet at a time.