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Attachment 208398
Trying to understand the history of the F Dekel COMPUR shutters...
Perhaps the cameras are not with period correct shutters but it seems to show Compur's of the the Dial Set type (1934), then a Rim Set type (1936) and again the Dial Set (1946) followed by the Linhof branded Rim Set type (1957).
So was the rim set sold at the same time as the Dial set as this image would indicate?
Dekel? Isn't that good ol' Friedrich Deckel?
For the 1946 version - could it be that there wasn't much left of the factory, leaving only spare parts to make shutters out of?
I think it is likely that there were different versions of the Compur shutter being sold at the same time.
Before the cameras Valetin LInhof made shutters that were see by companies like Zeiss, Kodak, Voigtlander, etc.
When LInhof began to make cameras they sold their shutter business to a neighboring company, Freidriech Deckel. Today on Rupert Meyer Strasse in Munich off the middle ring road LInhof and Deckel are neighbors.
The LInhof shutter eventually evolved into the Compur shutter and Deckel owned Prontor Werke who made all of the Compur and Prontor shutters.
Rim set Compur shutters labeled LInhof are Compur made by Prontor Werke through their owner Deckel.
In his publication on Voigtländer large format lenses here: https://www.arnecroell.com/voigtlaender.pdf, Arne Cröll gives examples of the dial-set Compur being used for post-WW II lenses. He comments on page 3 that some of the Voightländer lenses required a Compur number 2 size shutter and that the rim-set version in this size wasn't introduced by Deckel until 1953. This makes me think that Deckel continued to make some dial-set Compurs after WW II. Further in this paper Arne comments that the 115 mm Ultragon, introduced in 1950, is mostly seen in the dial-set Compur 2 but a few rim-set versions existed.
The SK Grimes website seems to generically apply number 2 as the size for dial-set Compurs, but see here: https://www.largeformatphotography.i...+Jena+15cm+3.5 Scrolling through this thread you'll find Ian's evidence that it's a bit more complicated.
And as Jimi suggests, for the 1946 example of the Linhof, who knows what lens was available used, much less new, to use in the illustration.
David
Great info thanks guys!
AFAIK Linhof didn't make any shutters and didn't sell their shutter business to F. Deckel. The Compur is an advanced model of the Compound, also made / invented by F. Deckel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Salomon
Shutters was LInhof first product. Then they made cameras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands)
My former repairman was born and reared in Deckel(sp?) Germany. He was trained in the camera factory there and loved those Deckel Compur shutters so much he would repair mine free. Sadly he passed about 25 years ago, but I still have and use several shutters which he brought back to life for me.
From what I found is that indeed Linhof was first into making shutters (which one?), but I can't seem to connect his name to that of F.Deckel or to Zeiss. This is what I found:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Salomon
"At the end of 1898, Deckel went into business for himself with a mechanic's workshop and in 1903 founded the company "Bruns & Deckel" in Munich together with the inventor Christian Bruns. Bruns developed the Compound leaf-shutter, which the company successfully manufactured and marketed from 1904. Bruns left the company as early as 1905, but continued to develop shutters for cameras. Friedrich Deckel thus became the sole owner of the company now named as "Friedrich Deckel GmbH".
The companies Carl Zeiss, Bausch & Lomb and Deckel's most important competitor Alfred Gauthier became co-partners in 1910. In 1911, Carl Zeiss acquired the patents for the new Compur shutter from Christian Bruns and let Deckel produce it under license. The Compur shutter had a newly developed gear escapement for slow speeds and with this innovation it became the companies most important product for decades to come. In 1961 the venture was even renamed Compur-Werk GmbH & Co.."
Thank you for this. Is this from Hartmut Thiele's Friedrich Deckel und der Compur-Verschluss? I have a copy but unfortunately for me as as a mono-lingual American it is, of course, in German.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands)
David
It’s from the LInhof Camera History book.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lindquist
Part of the history - also in German is on the website of the Compur company:Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lindquist
https://www.compur.com/ueber-uns/historie/
Part of the history - also in German is on the website of the Compur company:Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lindquist
https://www.compur.com/ueber-uns/historie/
Any source of that book on the internet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Salomon
I did find: "Linhof 100 Jahre 1887-1987"......
but no indications in that book that Linhof was involved in the invention / development of the Compound and Compur shutters
Should be available from any LInhof dealer or the factory directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands)
The Linhof Story makes reference to V Linhof's beginning as a designer of shutters.
Attachment 219511
As far as I know there is little actual evidence to the claim that the Linhof shutter was taken over by Deckel. However there is some anecdotal evidence including wikipedia and a couple of the camera guide books by those Scottish fellows....
The book Bob refers to is presented in both German and English (in the same book, to be clear). The German title is Das Linhof Camera Buch and its English title is The Linhof Camera Story. I have the August 2000 2nd edition. Editor/Publisher is Peter Bauernschmid. I can't find an ISBN. The page that Embdude shows is page 121 in this edition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands)
I don't remember where I got my copy.
David
The author is the owner of the LInhof factory.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lindquist
Bob did you ever meet with Mr. Bauernschmidt? There is amazingly little said about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Salomon
Richard Shimonkevitz does a great job of researching and explaining the details of the early days of Linhof in his 2021 book - Linhof the early cameras
Attachment 219512 Attachment 219513 Attachment 219514
Many times, both at the factory and at our Photokina meetings. He is an entrepreneur and owns several different businesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Embdude
Here is a Zeiss 1899 catalog witch is advertising Linhof shutters... starting on pg.89...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mxb...ew?usp=sharing
this article: https://randcollins.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/shutters/
also speaks of Linhof and Dekel but does not directly connect them.
"Linhof, manufacturer of the famed Linhof technical cameras, actually launched his career as a shutter manufacturer, with his first models of 1887 using a leather brake to control slow speeds. In fact, a leather brake was in use as late as 1902 in Steinheil’s “Universal Automatic Shutter Model C”, designed by Christian Bruns.
C. A. Steinheil, a major manufacturer of astronomical and optical equipment as well as photographic lenses and shutters. Both Friedrich Deckel and Christian Bruns were employed by Steinheil. Deckel left to found his own establishment in 1898, and was joined by Bruns in 1903; the resulting company was eventually named F. Deckel. Their cooperation produced in 1905 the famous Compound pneumatic shutter. This was the longest-lived of the pneumatic shutters, being
In designing the Compur shutter, Deckel apparently took the Compound shutter and replaced the pneumatic cylinder with Klein and Brueck’s clockwork slow speed escapement, thus simplifying and expediting the new design. The name “Compur” reflects this genesis from the Compound shutter, being a fusion of “Compound” and “Uhrwerk”, the German word for “clockwork” (see Reiss). Consequently, the Compur is actually a “Clockwork Compound” shutter.
It should be noted that the actual relationship between Deckel, Bruns and the development of the Compur shutter is somewhat murky; Bruns stayed with Deckel for only a short time, but continued to work on shutter design after severing his legal relationship with him. The majority of the design work was done not by Deckel, but by Bruns. Carl Zeiss owned a portion of F. Deckel and may have obtained the Compur patent from Bruns in order to share it with Deckel. Zeiss also quietly owned stock in the German Gauthier shutter factory and in Bausch and Lomb, and may have facilitated use of this design by both companies (see Reiss). Zeiss was in turn obligated to use Compur shutters in the majority of their cameras."
Many thanks for this info; guess you meant to direct to pages 83 and 84.Quote:
Originally Posted by Embdude
Yes I must have confused the page numbers there are several similar books/pages in the collection... Everything is Linhof oriented but more about the cameras a little about the shutters at first. Organized by date mostly post war info... https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...jo?usp=sharingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands)
However they spelled my name wrong!Quote:
Originally Posted by Embdude
Yep... Sorry I wish I would have caught that... fixed now. I had just copied it from the following site, which has also recently fixed the error (in the document though not in the hyperlink : http://www.lensbusters.com/2019/04/l...omon-says.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob Salomon
Another source of antidotal info of the link between Linhof and Dekel is from the "Focal Encyclopedia of Photography" which was first printed in 1960. Unfortunately no reference source is given for the information they list...
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Did you try to set out a question at the German LF forum? Very knowledgable members there especially if it concerns German made items....
Here's the link for if you don't know the forum yet:
https://forum.grossformatfotografie.de/forum/
Thanks Ron but I don't Spreken German... Looks like a nice site though. I will see what I get away with using Google translate...
This statement in the Focal Encyclopedia of Photography is not correct.
First, as discussed above, Christian Bruns was awarded patents for both the Compound (1902) and the Compur (1910) shutters, not Friedrich Deckel. Deckel commercialized both shutters with the assistance of Carl Zeiss.
Second, there is no evidence that Linhof was ever in business with Friedrich Deckel, they were in fact competitors.
Linhof's shutter patents (1892 and 1896) had expired by 1911, and, compared to both the Compound and Compur, were by that time, obsolete.
Finally, it was Bausch & Lomb who on May 15, 1888 patented perhaps the first inter-lens shutter, USP 382,858.
Linhof's between the lens shutter was submitted and patented on 8 November, 1892, DRP 72064.
Not sure why I didn't comment on this when it was first posted. Rudolph Klein and Theodor Brueck were founders of Ilex Optical Co. with financial help from Morris Rosenbloom, the company's first president. From Kinglake's The Photographic Companies of Rochester, New York , Klein and Brueck were inventors of the slow speed escapement of which Friedrich Deckel was "...Probably the largest licensee..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Embdude
There are three U.S, patent numbers for this mechanism, 1092110, 1091666 and 1122950. I have examples of dial-set Compurs and have seen additional examples of both dial-set and rim-set Compurs that are marked with these three patent numbers.
David
Christian Bruns applied for his Compur shutter patent "Objektivverschluss mit Raderwerk" in Germany on 6 June, 1910.
Klein & Bruek applied for their ILEX shutter patent in the USA on 25 June, 1910.
Both inventions were for a gear train-activated slow speed escarpment and independently arrived at.
Bruns applied for a USA patent on 9 November, 1911, and was approved on 18 February, 1913, 1,053,152.
The Bruns patent was approved in Germany on 26 March 1913, DRP 258646.
The ILEX patent was approved in the USA on 31 March, 1914, 1,092,110.
Both patents were recognized, however, the end of World War 1 resulted in the forfeiture of German patents.
Thereafter, only the ILEX patent was recognized, hence the acknowledgement of such by Friedrich Deckel.
Friedrich Deckel trademarked the "Compur" name on 24 January, 1912, Nr. 152947.
Various sources state that Zeiss bought the Compur shutter from Bruns, which Deckel manufactured and marketed.
Christian Bruns died sometime in 1912 (not found the exact date) before the Compur patent was awarded.
His son? Heinrich continued the company, but not much else appears to have happened except for the extension of previously awarded Gebrauchmusters ("Utility Models", awarded for 3 years and extendable for an additional 3).
It is interesting that an Exhibition of the previous 100 years of Munich Photographic History in 1939 Photographische Korrespondence described Steinheil's (Carl August & Adolph), Alois Lörcherer, Philip von Seidel, Christian Bruns and Valentin Linhof's contributions.
No mention of Deckel.
Thank you very much for this. I've wondered if independent invention was part of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick in CO
David
Very well could have been; simultaneous invention happened in several earth-shattering technological breakthroughs and although one person/company often won the glory, others never got the credit they were due. Same with licensing agreements and other types of "alliances and collaboration" between inventors/entrepeneurs, some of which may come and gone at various parts of the process. Successful commercialization often determined who got the credit.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lindquist
As Rick has done here, it's just as important to observe the patent application date as it is the patent issuance date as they sometimes are quite far apart.
I'm still trudging through the details of this recent discussion and finding it very, very fascinating!
Another place to look for clues on inventions, which I do for other types of 19th Century technologies but have for photographic technologies, are the technology/invention publications of that day, such as Scientific American, The Engineer, English Mechanic and World of Science. These types of publications focused on promoting invention, announced patent issuance with empahsis on their national locality but also international, and often published articles on new technlogies/inventions which seems to have put the one individual ahead of other (sometimes simultaneous or competing) inventors in terms of credit and awareness.
Many many machines were designed and Patented
1890 on
However a lot was impossible to actually make as metallurgy lagged
example automotive engine design
I have a couple tomes from 1920 that fascinate me
Particularly Dynamometers
I operated and repaired a huge Studebaker Dyno made during WW 11
many vacuum tubes and a lot of cold water
in 1978
Hi David. Thanks for this great information. There is a minor typo, however, in the bolded patent number. It should be US1091666.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lindquist
Thank you so much. Just corrected it. No matter how hard I look at a series of numbers like that I do't always spot my error(s). Of course now it's obvious being one digit too short.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianShaw
David