Help me to choose my first LF camera, please

I am a photographer enthusiast. My favorite genres are generic nature, architecture, portrait. Till now I have been using DSLRs (Nikon D300). DSLRs are very good cameras, but I want better image quality for landscape, static macro, outdoor architecture photography. So I decided to purchase a large format camera (4x5”).
After reading the articles in this site, searching through forum archive and internet, checking my budget, I decided I should bye one of the following used monorail cameras available:
- Toyo View 45G;
- Cambo/Calumet 45NX;
- Sinar F.
Here are my considerations (I write them in hope someone will correct me where I am wrong):
- a monorail has more movements which are very important in architecture photography in particular;
- most monorails accept more accessories (longer rails for macro, bag bellows for wide lenses, etc...)
- a monorail is more rigid;
- yes, a monorail is heavier, but I am going to shoot with a tripod exclusively;

Unfortunately I cannot find full specifications on all of these cameras, so those of you who knows them, answer some my questions please:
- Do all of these cameras have all the movements (rise/fall, shift, tilt, swing) for both front and back?
- Do all of these cameras have scales for all their movements?
- Do all of these cameras have micro-fine focusing?
- Do all of these cameras have interchangeable bellows?
- Which of the three is the most rigid one?

Thank you, Mikhail.

Mikhail, I won't comment on any of the cameras you mention, but I'd give you some general recommendations (if you don't mind):

If you have never shot LF, you might want to try it out somewhere - either borrow a camera, or buy a second hand cheap(ish) camera. It's different than using other cameras, be it MF, or more so the digital ones. It's much slower, much more time consuming, much more prone to "user-errors". You might find out that all this is not for you, that you want something different. So I think it's wise if you don't invest too much just to try it out... If you opt to buy a used-one, you can later sell it with very little loss...

Links to manufacturers product info:

http://www.sinarbron.com/sinar/conventional/f2.php

http://www.toyoview.com/Products/45G...5GII_45GX.html

http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/CC4020/

You can't go wrong with any of these. Get one used at a good price and try it out.

Some info here also: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/listcameras.html

Also search this forum for comments on these cameras.

Of the three you list, the Sinar F has the most long-term expansion potential, should you want to stay with large format photography. I also think they're about the best engineered, best built monorail cameras out there. That said, I would definitely encourage you to get your hands on at least one if not more of these cameras and play with them to get a feel for their operation - what one person likes and recommends may feel awkward and counter-intuitive to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jiri Vasina

Mikhail, I won't comment on any of the cameras you mention, but I'd give you some general recommendations (if you don't mind):

If you have never shot LF, you might want to try it out somewhere - either borrow a camera, or buy a second hand cheap(ish) camera. It's different than using other cameras, be it MF, or more so the digital ones. It's much slower, much more time consuming, much more prone to "user-errors". You might find out that all this is not for you, that you want something different. So I think it's wise if you don't invest too much just to try it out... If you opt to buy a used-one, you can later sell it with very little loss...

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Thank you, Jiri Vasina for your recommendations.
Yes, I understand LF and DSLR photography are very different processes. But slowness and lack of automation of LF doesn't scare me. Image quality is what I want in the first place. Look at this thread I initiated this spring at Nikonians' forum and you will see what I am looking for. Besides I believe DSLR's automation helps photographer to do pictures but doesn't do them for him. If I want the camera do all my picture by itself I would switch to point and shoot class of cameras or bye a phone with 5MP camera in it (mine hasn't got any by the way). I don't want to switch from DSLR to LF. There are ares where DSLR outperform any other class of cameras (shooting fast moving objects for example). I just want to widen my gear set so that I could use the one which give me better result in every specific case.

I see your pictures in your site and like them. It seems to me your shooting stile is similar to mine (or at least to that I desire for).

Thank you, Mikhail.

Find a used starter camera cheaply. Kind of a crash dummy. With the market the way it is, you can get started for a very reasonable cost. Then, once you have your LF legs underneath you, , go out and get your serious camera. Sell off your starter camera as a beginner's outfit and recoup your initial outlay.

The differences between a DSLR and a 4x5 - of any type - are so vast that I believe the best strategy is to just get your feet wet at lowest possible cost. LF is really a very different critter, and really, a bunch of related critters - monorails, technical cameras, portrait boxes, architectural specialty cameras.... Just get to know the basics of how one handles and maybe more important, what one likes and wants.

I started with an old Calumet - the old metal camera with the slender monorail. Made a wood lensboard and attached a cheeepo lens. It wasn't much of a camera, but it worked fine and taught me plenty.

Best,

C

I don't know enough about any of the three particular cameras you mention to comment. But reading your message I get the feeling that you're falling into a trap many newcomers fall into (I certainly did). That is, you seem to feel you need every possible movement a camera can have and that only a monorail will give you all these movements.

I don't know how much and what kind of architectural work you do. Maybe you really need all these movements on both the front and back but in general, if you have front tilt, rise and fall, and swing, maybe shift (though I usually just move the tripod rather than using shift) on the front and tilt and swing on the back, that's all most of us ever need in the way of movements and more than many of us need. It's certainly all I've ever needed and I used to do a fair amount of architectural work. And there are some field cameras that have most movements that monorails have - Ebony, Shen Hao and Chamonix come to mind.

With respect to weight, the reason a heavy camera isn't usually desirable outside the studio doesn't relate to using a tripod, it's a matter of how much weight and "cumbersomeness" you're willing to carry around . Of course if you don't walk any distance that doesn't make much difference.

Accessories - some field cameras have a lot of accessories - Linhof Technikas come to mind - but in general you're probably right about monorail vs field cameras in that respect. There are, however, many field cameras that accept a bag bellows (Ebony, Chamonix, Shen Hao for example). Also, carrying around and fiddling with a bunch of accessories gets real old real fast unless you're actually using them a lot.

Good luck, it sounds like you're committed to quality and any LF camera will certainly give you that.

The Toyo and Cambos can be bought pretty cheap used. I've used a Sinar and they're nice, but I wouldn't trade my 80s/90s N series Calumet (like the Cambo SC) for one. It's light, smooth operating (tolerances are high, so even though movements aren't geared, I have little trouble setting the movements I need and locking them down), and accessories are readily available on the used market at good prices. I have a press/field camera, too, and enjoy it when I don't need the monorail's capabilities, but just last week I needed a couple of inches each of fall and shift to frame a picture the way I wanted it (in a building where my ability to move around was limited). If I had only brought my field camera, I couldn't have done it. BTW, my calumet has the rotating back and weighs a shade under 9 lbs. (4 kilos) with most of the lenses I use (a bit more with the 210mm). That's only 3 lbs. more than a Toyo 45A/AII, although it doesn't fold up so nicely. It came to me in near mint condition off ebay, and my net cost (a bit more than a year ago) was about $150.

See if you can find a used Arca-Swiss. My choice over any of the other cameras (and I have owned a Toyo/Omega and an Ebony)

I have just ordered used Sinar F 4x5 and five Rite-way 4X5 sheetfilm holders at B&H Photo.
Now waiting for them to arrive and thinking over which lens to bye. As I can't do it right now I have time enough to do a good choice (I hope). Fortunately I've found more info about LF lenses than I've done about LF cameras. In my shooting practice I more often use wide lenses for landscape and arcitecture (with Nikon DX cameras my favorite lens for the purpose is Nikkor 12-24mm which roughly corresponds to 54-105mm lenses for 4x5" cameras) so I'm thinking over such lenses:
- Nikon Nikkor SW 90mm f/8 (more likely);
- Fuji Fujinon SWD 90mm f/5.6;
- Schneider Super-Angulon 90mm f/5.6;
- (purhaps) Schneider Super-Angulon XL 72mm f/5.6 (I like it has shorter focal length while large image circle, but it is rather pricy for me, besides I'm afraid it produses more distortions compared to any 90mm lens listed above).

Thank all of you for your help, Mikhail.

If you have gone for the Sinar F you could look into the possibility of getting the Copal autoshutter for it, some people hate them but Ilove mine for the fact that it makes the value of Sinar DB mounted lenses very low you can get DB mounted lenses from 65-600mm and often for say a quarter of the price that they would go for wth a shutter.

If you are looking at 90mm lenses I have seen Schneider Super-Angulon 90mm f8's go for around $200 in DB mounts.

"I started with an old Calumet - the old metal camera with the slender monorail. Made a wood lensboard and attached a cheeepo lens. It wasn't much of a camera, but it worked fine and taught me plenty."

Me too, terrific camera for $100 or so. 40 year later I still have it (along with 6 other 4X5's). It will do everything those other 6 will do except the hand holding bit and focal plane shutter and the bag bellows and the fold it up and put it in a suitcase. :-) K

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Originally Posted by Clive Gray

If you have gone for the Sinar F you could look into the possibility of getting the Copal autoshutter for it, some people hate them but Ilove mine for the fact that it makes the value of Sinar DB mounted lenses very low you can get DB mounted lenses from 65-600mm and often for say a quarter of the price that they would go for wth a shutter.

If you are looking at 90mm lenses I have seen Schneider Super-Angulon 90mm f8's go for around $200 in DB mounts.

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Thank you, Clive Gray, for the information.

Couldn't you point me to the source where I learn more about this.

Mikhail.

Hello Mikhaili

Sinar have a brief information page on their site here and while your looking at their site it's worth downloading their catalog as it will give you an idea of the accessories available for your camera.

I know I've found a manual for both the camera and shutter online before, but my normal laptop is out of action at the moment and I can't find the links to hand so I'll try and post them later.

Manual for shutter on Camera Eccentric and the manual for the F from Camera Instruction Manuals online.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clive Gray

Manual for shutter on Camera Eccentric and the manual for the F from Camera Instruction Manuals online.

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Thank you, very much, Clive Gray.
Very useful information for me. I ordered used Sinar F so I doubt there will be any manuals in the package. Besides I am absolutely new to large format photography.

Mikhail.