Here's the latest round from Kodak. Of interest to the LF community, 8x10 320TXP and Ektar 100 go from being stock items to special orders only.
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Here's the latest round from Kodak. Of interest to the LF community, 8x10 320TXP and Ektar 100 go from being stock items to special orders only.
Well that's another low blow for me. But I've already started my freezer reserve of
8X10 Ektar. Group orders thereafter are potenially dicey, however. They sure know how to accelerate their own demise, having just introduced the product not too long ago. I don't know of any real substitute for it. What's next? ALL 8x10 film?
I knew there was a reason for me switching to Ilford for B&W films several decades ago. ;)
Wait; isn't TMY also special-order only in 8x10? So Kodak is offering no high-speed B&W film in 8x10?
Just checking.
Time to put in another order at Freestyle.
What is the best temperature to store film?
If it's standard-size Kodak film, packed under low relative humidity conditions in laminated vapor-seal envelopes, the lower the better. I keep mine in the freezer compartment of our main refrigerator-freezer at around 0 degrees F. If one has a dedicated freezer, even lower temperatures are good. Some have posted that theirs are set for -15 degrees F.
Note that, after cutting open a Kodak inner envelope, or when storing non-Kodak film which is delivered in unsealed black plastic inner bags, one should not place the film in a freezer. Instead, the box is best put in a zipper-locking plastic bag (with as much air squeezed out as possible) and stored in the refrigerator compartment of a frost-free refrigerator-freezer.
Whether removing cold-stored film from a freezer or refrigerator, be sure to let it warm up to room temperature before opening the package. Failure to do so will result in condensation on the film's surface, usually showing up as spots in images.
Freezing is not the best answer for keeping film. 40 degrees is best... but humidity control is most important.
If you want to keep film for longer than ten years, then I would consider freezing. When film is manufactured the emulsion has a relative humidity level standard that has to be maintained. Too low and the emulsion cracks and to high it rots and excepts gasses that interact with the emulsion. There is a whole list of gases that really are quite common, if you want a list email me. Basically everything in the kitchen and the garage will effect the emulsion if the emulsion humidity gets to high. So seal your film no matter how you store it. Then the type of base is also consideration, acetate film base, emulsion cracking can occur but not so much of a problem. Estar or polyestar based film, well have you ever developed a roll of film that looks like a spring that cannot be straitened? well that means too dry or low humidity. Freezing very much can change the humidity level of the emulsion of your film emulsion, which you really want to avoid.
this is from a post back in Feb 2011 I had some friends that were real geeks when it came to film dev, storage ect.... early in my photo career
http://www.mikepic.com
http://www.facebook.com/photobymike
I figured it was odd that 8x10 Tri-x was a stocked item but 8x10 TMY2 wasn't. I've started using the 8x10 TMY2 from my canham order a year ago, and it's real nice stuff and I'm glad I have a bunch in my freezer.
So now we've got stock items in 8x10 of Portra 160 and 400 (the new ones) and E100G. Hmmmmmm.... I wonder which one is going next?
E100G if I had to bet. I love that film too, at least in 35mm.
On the one hand I'm kind of glad I haven't taken the 8x10 plunge. On the other hand, color in 8x10 is already so expensive I would rarely shoot color even if I had 8x10, and in black and white I can live happily with Ilford.
Roger,
SHHHHH!!!! Don't let Kodak think we're all moving to Fuji ;)! I love E100G for times when I want a bit more "warmth" than Provia provides straight off. Kodak's greens, IMO, aren't as radiant, but a bit more natural IMO. I like both though, and will shoot what gives me the desired results.
E-6 isn't a popular process these days though, especially in 8x10...
-Dan
I get the impression that they don't care.Quote:
SHHHHH!!!! Don't let Kodak think we're all moving to Fuji !
KODAK PROFESSIONAL TRI-X 320 Film / 320 TXP / 10 sh 8 x 10 in
Special Order Only
My favorite film, by far. Fantastic behavior in PMK, the most beautiful tones.
My stock will endure one year, may be two.
I can't believe! How could such iconic film have so low demand in the US?
Someone in this forum stated that we talk a lot about cameras and lenses, but do not go outdoor making images.
I'm beginning to agree.......
Or will be Kodak doing it on purpose, just to abandon film?
Won't a place like B&H easily fulfill the special order requirements?
Glad I stuck with 4x5.
It reallly pains me to spend $7/sheet for b&w film; for some reason more than shooting 3-4 sheets of $4 film.
I'm slowly getting over it, but grudgingly. What's getting me over it is that every sheet is a keeper and it looks awesome. Not that the $4 stuff is bad, the Kodak stuff is just better at resisting scratches, pinholes, better dynamic range, better reciprocity, etc... No risking $7 on a shot, no reward. The stakes are bigger, and results are bigger and better. On 4x5 I stick with the good stuff regardless of cost, but the price difference per sheet is much less.
Probably in the same way multiple cheap mediocre take-out meals go unappreciated, but a nice higher end dinner experience is much appreciated.
Not disparaging cheap film; I just bought some Xray film and think it's worth trying anything to create film images.
Judging from what I read here and on other forums, many if not most 8x10 photographers seem to feel that TMY-2 is greatly superior, so they want that instead.
Apparently it will have difficulty doing that. For example, Canham has managed to complete only one 8x10 TMY-2 special order nearly 11 months ago, with a second attempt falling short in October
http://www.canhamcameras.com/kodakfilmstatus.html.
This despite his minimum number of boxes being 218, fewer than the B&H minimum of 245 boxes
http://www.canhamcameras.com/kodakfilm.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...MY_8_x_10.html.
Although B&H asks "only" $73.50 per box, compared to Canham's $77.00, it has not to my knowledge sold anyone the minimum quantity since TMY-2 became a special order item. Note that these are 10-sheet boxes.
As this is typed, B&H has 97 boxes of 8x10 320TXP in stock and is offering free shipping within the US
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...x10_Tri_X.html.
Badger had 24 boxes yesterday, but has only 4 boxes right now
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/...t_detail&p=659
after noting the discontinuation on its Web page.
For my purposes, 8x10 320TXP works better than TMY-2. Given most people's apparent preference for the latter, as well as Kodak's shaky status in general, this may be the last opportunity to purchase any. Consequently, I added as much to my cache this morning as our freezer will accommodate. I suggest anyone who feels the same act similarly.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...x10_Tri_X.html
Shows in stock, ten-sheet boxes of 8x10 Kodak Tri-X 4164 for $54.95 with free shipping.
Tell me that's a great deal and that I should buy 100 boxes to double my money in six months.
Love the film... been thinking about buying the 100 boxes myself for personal consumption, but I just can't bring myself to push the button, due to the lack of value.
It pains me to see watch Kodak right now... it is like watching a slow motion train wreck. Loved their products, but they screwed the pooch business-strategy wise and it is too late for them to recover without going through chapter 11.
Maybe Frank will buy the TXP recipe, one of the coating machines, a slitter, etc. and he will make sheet TXP for us in his garage on weekends... :rolleyes:
No ;-/
Hey the Impossible Project bought a factory, hired the ex-employees, and got Ilford involved and they still can't make a stable product after several years. I wouldn't dare tackle TXP (even though I know you're kidding).
Do you have those problems with Ilford? These problems sound like what folks are saying about Foma, but I've never had any problems with Ilford film. I just checked the Freestyle web site and Ilford 8x10 B&W is almost the same price as Foma, at least "Foma brand Foma." TXP is $5.99 a sheet. HP5+ is $4.40. Fomapan 400 is $3.99 a sheet and Arista rebranded Foma is $2.79 a sheet.
I understand and agree with what you're saying, just wondering what film you're talking about. If Kodak prices are too much and Foma/Adox etc. are too unreliable and problematic, I'd go to Ilford, unless you're saying you have these problems with Ilford?
You can view their stock by attempting to buy it, type in a high guess for quantity, then a lower one, see what gets rejected and accepted. 4-5 guesses and you can tell.
I'm not shooting 8x10 or I would buy a bunch. I don't want to try to sell it in year, people may adjust and be happy enough with HP5 and not want to pay for TXP (which is the root of the problem....)
Thanks Sal for calling it to our attention.
Where else is a reliable stockist besides Freestyle, B&H, and Badger?
Place a large quantity in your shopping cart. If it's more than they have, a message is displayed indicating that. Decrement until you don't get the message. If you don't get the message when first placing what you believe is a large quantity in your cart, increment until you do. :)
85 this morning ;-/
I bet it will taper off soon and then X boxes will sit there for a half a year.
i just wish this idiot company would just fold so they stop taking monies (orders) away from the other film companies.
maybe we only need one company to sell film. clearly kodak can not run a business!
bye bye kodak!
or should i say buy buy kodak ..... while you still can?
If other companies made films like Ektar 100, the Portras and E100G I might even agree, though I'd miss 35mm and, to a lesser extent, 120 Tri-X.
Fuji DID make a film like E100G, Astia, but the #%$^s canceled it too. They don't have anything like Ektar and nothing as good as the new Portras.
But in black and white we do have other excellent and very viable choices.
I have no problems with Ilford and would consider them a good option to Kodak. I've only shot about a half dozen sheets of Ilford FP4+, so I don't have a good understanding of it yet to adequately review it. I use their paper a great deal and respect them a lot.
I've shot Tmax400 since 1990ish and am quite comfortable with it and feel like I know it. Exploring other developer choices with Tmax400 in the past couple of year has made that relationship even better.
Efke I must have had a bad batch or something, but I tried to make a box of 50 4x5's work and had many quality issues on their pl50 film. Haven't been compelled to try it again in another size or speed. Foma is the cheap stuff I compared prices too. It's hard to resist with their Arista packaged prices. I buy the Foma paper too and like the paper. Their 100 film is capable of nice stuff in certain circumstances and I want to continue to wring that out. People like Nana and Gandolfi show what it can do and inspire persistence. I have some pinhole/emulsion issues I'm working out and next time I shoot it I will try another fixer to see if that's it; one change a time. I've already found Foma 100 likes PyrocatHD better than PMK, where Kodak works well in either. A stronger PMK mix might work, but that's not really the idea.
Well I just ordered some...while I still can.
"When I'm all done cultivating I'll be rocking on the porch
"Trying to picture you and where you are."
Neil Young - Fields of Opportunity
Meanwhile Kodak introduced two new photographic papers today. One color and one "metallic".
Well, Helcio, there you go! Why is the demand for Kodak so low? Either the photographers are using Ilford, or else they've stocked up to the gills with a special order. Or maybe they're using x-ray film for 50 cents a sheet. Kodak is in business to make money, and requiring a special order is cheaper for Kodak than distributing through normal channels.
Money talks, and Kodak follows the money. When their film is 50% higher than the other brands, what will the majority of photographers purchase? The cheaper brand that's good enough, of course.
There aren't any high-volume users of 8x10 anymore, anywhere. How do I know? A special order is $15,000. At nearly $8 per sheet, that's 1,875 sheets. There are 52 weeks in the year, five working days per week, so 260 days. 1,875 sheets divided by 260 days comes to a tad over seven sheets per day.
Seven sheets per day. Nobody is using that much film. Not. One. Single. Person.
There isn't even a large enough group to do that, beyond the initial special order that went into a bunch of freezers. That's the level of film consumption for 8x10. My usage is a box or two a year, and I buy what's on the shelf locally because I can't store anything.
So there you go. It's all about volume.
Yeah but in the 80s we used to shoot 20-40 sheets of 8x10 for a nice shot all the time. Some of the catalog houses probably 1,875 sheets in month. Some cruncher looks and sees the sales are at 1% of their historic high and says give it up, it is hard not to see it that way....
I switched to Ilford for all my B&W. I garee....Kodak is a slow motion trainwreck!
I've been watching this situation for a while now, wondering when the latest delivery would be the final delivery.
B&H has been showing around 175 boxes of 8x10 320TXP in stock at each peak, which then gets drawn down at a fairly steady rate, frequently being replenished back to that level when approximately 60 boxes remain a month or so later. Most recently, it bottomed out at 0 boxes and was "out of stock" for many weeks. This time it's flying out the door much faster.
Unless Kodak still has some finished 8x10 stock in the pipeline (not just a master roll), I don't think the 85 boxes still at B&H will last half a month, much less half a year, now that the discontinuation is public knowledge.
E6, but not B&W. B&W in 8x10 has become such a niche that if there was one high-volume B&W studio in the US using Kodak, KB Canham would never have a problem filling that special order, ever. It would be, "who wants to piggyback with the Super Silver Studio order this month?" Thus, I don't see an overstatement, as Kodak is only offering 8x10 B&W as a special order.
4x5 B&W isn't in "danger." A couple of weeks ago I bought a 50 sheet box of TMax 400, no problem. I'm sure that I could go downtown and buy another 50 sheet box. But Kodak 8x10 B&W? Hmmm...
I look at it completely differently - if you're already making the sheet film stock, why
piss off the top of the food chain and further damage your already crippled reputation?
What we're talking about here is packaging and warehousing, not actual film manufacture. It's analogous to dropping fifty-sheet boxes - an inconvenience that doesn't earn any brownie points right when they should be looking for as much customer loyalty as possible. If a film has to be dropped outright to streamline their
production expenses, I understand that. But every sheet of 8x10 is worth four of
4X5, and someone like me might drop both if I can't get both. No, I'm not a big consumer (waster) of film. I need to somehow justify the cost. But for everyone of me
getting the cold shoulder, there's a dozen folks in the domino effect who will discouraged from experimenting with 8x10 if the film supply gets unbearably flaky. And
if I get only smaller color film, I'll inevitably be making smaller color prints. It unwinds
in several directions, and the next thing you know, processing options for E6 and C41
will become scarcer, accelerating the whole mess. No different than the other kinds of
businesses I'm in - I see competitors making panic decisions during hard times which
inconvenience their remaining customers, and this in turn becomes the straw which
ends up breaking the camel's back. By itself, 8X10 film sales might not amt to a lot of
dollars one way or the other, but Kodak has quite a history at this point of holding out
a carrot with some exciting new product or service, then whacking you with a stick
soon afterwards. Word gets around.
If they moved to an internet sales only model and cut out the middle-men perhaps they could sell a wider variety and quantities. It's not like the shops have big clear film coolers to show it all off like the olden days of 2004.... But I suspect they will ride their business model down to the end.
Drew,
This is my situation exactly.
Kodak first messed around with the 5x7 supply in Canada. Kodak in the US would say one thing on the phone and the CDN distributor would tell me to piss off regardless of what head office said. So I moved to HP5. If I am going to go through the grief of learning HP5 inside out for 5x7, might as well make it for 8x10 too. I have not bought yellow in 5x7 or 8x10 for a long while, there are about 90 sheets of 8x10 HP5 in my fridge right now.
I still buy yellow for 4x5, 120 and 35mm, but I do buy Ilford in those formats too.
My next concern is chemistry.
I use 95% Kodak chemistry.
I have found myself stocking up and keep a full case of: X-tol, Tmax RS, Dektol, D-76, Hypo Clear and Fixer at any give time.
As much as HP5 is a fine film, Kodak makes better chemistry (imho).
I've still got some old yeller in the freezer but i haven't shot any 8x10 Kodak in probably two years.
I can't afford it.
Ilford, Orwo and Foma get my biz.
I haven't used any Kodak papers in that time either, the eastern europeans supply all my paper now.
I still use some Kodak chemicals, but IMHO l can easily find replacements--its no biggie.
I wonder when Kodak will pull the plug on 5x7 film as well? 5x7 Tri-X is still available, right?
I wouldn't be so sure. One shouldn't lose sight of the big picture. Kodak's continued existence as a corporate entity is far from probable. All the discontinuations (this round and earlier ones) seem like a well-planned winding down of the business.
While I've filled a freezer with lots of 5x7 and 100 sheets of 8x10 320TXP, that's mostly because the emulsion's characteristic curve is such a good match to the thousands of 8x10 Azo sheets I stockpiled years ago. Also, the retouchable back coating completely eliminates any concern about Newton's rings when contact printing.
Going forward, Ilford will be my main supplier. FP4 Plus is a fine film; I'm standardizing on it for 4x5, 5x7 and whole plate. Others might like Delta 100 better. Counting on Kodak to be around a year from now, still supplying TMY-2 or any other film, is placing one's eggs in a very shaky basket.