Scanning Mounted 8x10 Film Epson Flatbed

I'm trying to pick up this technique.

So far I've tried mounting the negative on a thick piece of 11x14 normal glass, rising it with 4 pennies, and think the results are OK.

I picked up a piece of 11x14, thin anti-reflection / museum glass, and will try that too.

The museum glass has instructions printed on the edge telling which side the art faces vs which side is the outside.

I plan to mount the emulsion side to the side that says the artwork is supposed to face, and not the outside, is that right, will I see any difference?

So far, with the normal piece of glass, the main issue I am having is placing the mounted glass in a manner that preview scan will pick up all the film edges. I preview and move it many times (increasing dust), to get this right, and it never seems totally right!

I seem to think, with the film area guide in place, placing the mounted glass over it in such a way that the bottom and right sides of the neg align with maybe a 1/16th inch gap works (that was my experience with direct on glass scans), but there is some play in the film area guide up and left, and things seem like they might be reversed when trying to figure out why the top, bottom, left, or right border isn't scanning. E.g. I'm not sure, but sometimes I think if the bottom border is cut off, it means I should move image down ... can anyone confirm?

Does anyone not use film area guide?

Any tricks for getting the mounted negative in place right each time? I have considered masking the correct 8x10 negative area on the glass with 1/4" white paper tape, but it seemed to cause more problems, or I had no registration system, that would allow it to be effective, having a mask is good for mounting, but the glass still needs to be correctly placed (over the film area guide), masking might make that harder to determine visually each time. Anyone use a mask for film placement on mounting glass?

Since my glass is 11x14, it extends all around the platen, and over the registration area, I wonder if I should mount the negative in such a way that it is near the top edge of the mounting glass, so I can insure no clear glass is hanging over the registration / calibration area?

I've seen the weird vertical lines on certain previews using the film area guide, when the glass is over this registration area (which so far is always), though not consistently. Slight adjustments, and subsequent previews / scans don't have them.

Do smaller cuts of glass work better (e.g. one that would fit directly over the film area guide, and not the registration / calibration area), my rationale for going 11x14 was the ease with which I could access the penny risers, and no risk of getting the risers in the scan.

I tried mounting with the paper tape mentioned earlier, but that messes up the borders.

Lately, based on reading something here, I am using crystal clear scotch like tape, but it is harder to remove and can leave residue, though it is harder to see and easier to correct in Photoshop.

Any tips on mounting techniques and getting perfect registration (e.g. straight, and can see all the edges / borders) every time?


Thanks,
Bill

You don't mention which model, but I'll assume it's a V700/750.

These have 2 lenses - basically one for glass level scanning and the other (Hi Res) for the elevated film holders.

Unfortunately, the latter has reduced scanning area. It does not cover 8x10. So, by resting the 11x14 glass above the Scanner's glass whilst using the lower Res lens, you will not have the film in focus. Conversely, if you select the High Res lens, you will not cover the film size.

I futzed with that problem for so many years that I broke down and bought a Creo/Scitex Eversmart II. Good luck, unfortunately I don't have a solution for you.

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Originally Posted by Lachlan 717

You don't mention which model, but I'll assume it's a V700/750.

These have 2 lenses - basically one for glass level scanning and the other (Hi Res) for the elevated film holders.

Unfortunately, the latter has reduced scanning area. It does not cover 8x10. So, by resting the 11x14 glass above the Scanner's glass whilst using the lower Res lens, you will not have the film in focus. Conversely, if you select the High Res lens, you will not cover the film size.

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My understanding is using the film area guide and dry mounting the negative on glass (raising it slightly) is the way to get the best 8x10 scans with the 4990 and v700/750 scanners.

Focusing depends on the riser height. Focusing is not my problem, I'm using a penny per corner of glass and the focus is fine.

Among other things, I'd like to know the best way to mount and place the mounted negative over the film area guide so the preview is straight, centered, with all borders showing,

each time, without having to adjust and preview multiple times.

Thanks,
Bill

For registration, I have pieces of masking tape with arrows on them, showing me where the 8x10 film should sit.
The tape is fixed on the scanner body, outside the scanning area.
I get pretty close, but some adjustment is required occasionally.

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Originally Posted by Ari

For registration, I have pieces of masking tape with arrows on them, showing me where the 8x10 film should sit.
The tape is fixed on the scanner body, outside the scanning area.
I get pretty close, but some adjustment is required occasionally.

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Thanks for the info Ari,

Are you using the film area guide in addition to your tape system?
How are you mounting the film?

Bill

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Originally Posted by spacegoose

Thanks for the info Ari,

Are you using the film area guide in addition to your tape system?

Bill

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Bill, I alternate between the two, but not for any particular reason.
Also, I have trouble keeping 8x10 film perfectly flat, so sometimes I will tape it directly to the scanner bed.

I don't understand why some people are having to raise the negative slightly above the scanner glass... I tried wet mounting an 8x10 negative directly on the scanner glass and the resulting scan is sharp. Raising it even slightly results in an unsharp scan. Has anyone tried wet mounting directly on the scanner?
I removed the scanner glass casing (easy to do after you pop off the 4 plastic plugs and then remove 4 screws) and placed it on top of my light table. This made it a lot easier to see what I was doing and also kept the mounting fluid away from the scanner.

Thanks for the info Andrew,

For 8x10, I think in lieu of wet mounting, dry mounting on a piece of glass raised above the platen, is the way to go for the best possible Epson flatbed scans.

I don't seem to have trouble with focus, though maybe it is achieved somewhat via unsharp mask :rolleyes:

Dry scanning on the platen is prone to Newton Rings.

I've carefully attempted a wet mount direct to platen many months ago with a color 5x7 negative (with fluid below emulsion only, and nothing to sandwich on top). I don't recall the results, they were OK I think, but I didn't like the possibility of damaging the scanner.

I have decided wet mounting is probably the way to go and will try with a Kami kit from Aztek, though will still use the mount on raised glass above platen technique, I think ...

I spoke to a technician at LTI a few days ago who showed me their wet mount process using the Kami system and a Creo Eversmart Supreme 2 flatbed.

He said dry scans tend to look more dry, describing that as a characteristic of the grain when unsharp masking.

Though on that system, I think the mount is also directly to the platen (which is easily removable - but the scan on that system might happen from above, which is above the mylar) - maybe I will try direct to platen too ... though unless it's easy to remove and reseat all the time on the Epson, I don't think I want to, plus I think it would introduce dust inside the scanner?

Interestingly, the Creo Eversmart Supreme 2 makes multiple passes and stitches the image, which can sometimes lead to issues with continuous tone areas like backdrops, etc., apparently.

Do you find removing the scanner glass is necessary to properly mount 8x10 film on the platen? How did you deal with the film area guide and proper placement when mounting negative (to get all the borders and straight scans)? Which scanner model do you have? I have a 4990 and V700.

Thanks,
Bill

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For 8x10, I think in lieu of wet mounting, dry mounting on a piece of glass raised above the platen, is the way to go for the best possible Epson flatbed scans.

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Hi Bill, let me see if I understand this... So, you dry mount on glass with the neg taped tightly to the underside of the glass, then lift the glass slightly above the scanner? Do you have the scanner set to film area guide? Set to film holder I see doesn't cover 8x10. Are you using AN glass? Is the negative's emulsion facing down? I've tried this way using various heights, but still, scans appeared sharpest when taken from the scanner glass.
Cheers!

Hi Andrew,

That's what I've been doing. Based on things I've read here and elsewhere, I tape a negative, base side to normal glass (possess but have not tried on museum glass), flip glass over, so film emulsion is facing platen, and shim or rise the glass with 4 pennies, selecting (and using) film area guide.

I still have a very hard time getting it to line up properly in preview, due in probable part to crooked mounting, and / or crooked placement of mounted negative over platen.

I need to come up with a registration system, and determine if using the film area guide is actually required; for 8x10 I know you must select film area guide in the software.

I spoke to a tech at Aztek just a moment ago and he suggested on a test V750 from Epson, the optimal focus and scan (using targets), was achieved when mounting the film directly on platen (and not with the V750 fluid holder),

but he also mentioned this could be different from scanner to scanner, due to tolerances, etc. I don't have a V750 but do have the V700 and 4990, which may be yet another focus variable.

The tech also recommended that if mounting on the scanner platen, it would be wise to seal the edges, perhaps with the special Kami tape that doesn't dissolve when in contact with mounting fluid.

I wonder if using more fluid and Mylar on top of the film is beneficial when direct wet platen mounting?

I find it interesting that the Epson V750 fluid holder and better scanning station do not accommodate 8x10, though I do imagine they get to use the better lens - which is used when "scan with film holder" is selected.


Bill

If using a V700 try using "Lumina" fliud (scan science) lightly sprayed directly on the glass a wack the negative directly on that. Don't lift the negative off the glass because you will lose focus.

Bill,

As I mentioned earlier, the different lenses have different coverage.

The higher resolution lens DOES NOT cover 8x10". The only way that you can get this coverage is by using the lower res lens, which is meant to be focused at glass level.

Raising the film on the low res setting will, in theory if you're scanner is calibrated to this glass level, put it out of focus. It is only the higher res/smaller field option (i.e. with an appropriate film holder) that warrants raising the film.

Unless your scanner is somehow not prefocused on the glass' surface, then raising it when you're obtaining full 8x10 coverage is not giving you the sharpest scan.

That's what I thought. I'll keep scanning directly on the scanner bed.

A vintage 8 x 10 scanned on the platen with film area guide, from memory emulsion side up and a piece of non reflective platen sized glass to flatten the film, done on my Epson V700 i think 1200 ppi /dpi
Attachment 102134

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Originally Posted by pinup tragic

A vintage 8 x 10 scanned on the platen with film area guide, from memory emulsion side up and a piece of non reflective platen sized glass to flatten the film, done on my Epson V700 i think 1200 ppi /dpi
Attachment 102134

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Yes and it seems to have Newton Rings around the area next to her right hand and there also seems to be some more around two dots in the black background, one on the left of the picture about halfway up and another towards the top left corner.

I've found my V700 will work well with black and white negatives, emulsion down but not so well with colour as the Newton Rings are bad no matter whether the emulsion is up or down...

It's a design fault as far as I'm concerned. The damn thing should work with a holder of some sort so the film need not be in contact with the platen glass.

RR

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Originally Posted by Regular Rod

Yes and it seems to have Newton Rings around the area next to her right hand and there also seems to be some more around two dots in the black background, one on the left of the picture about halfway up and another towards the top left corner.
RR

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Thanks RR, Probably not a good example of the image, the system re sized it as an attachment - i suppose what i am getting at is the V700 doesn't do a bad job considering it's limitations - rough and ready.
A bigger version 65% only slight sharpen via resizing and on my worpress blog - somewhere not open to the public http://pinupmemories.files.wordpress.../09/scan2a.jpg Some film damage and scrapes.

The bigger image shows them up a little better, including some more on the top right in the black background. I reckon, if that is a silver negative, by turning it emulsion side down you will be able to scan without the Newton Rings... They seem to come when the film itself is in contact with the glass, hence the problem with colour no matter which way up you have the negative or transparency. Very frustrating and I'm sure EPSON could fix this...

RR

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Originally Posted by Regular Rod

The bigger image shows them up a little better, including some more on the top right in the black background. I reckon, if that is a silver negative, by turning it emulsion side down you will be able to scan without the Newton Rings... They seem to come when the film itself is in contact with the glass, hence the problem with colour no matter which way up you have the negative or transparency. Very frustrating and I'm sure EPSON could fix this...

RR

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I'm afraid they can't do much more then they've already done: you can use their wet mounting kit, and you should have no Newton rings. What they could is providing a holder for 5x7 and 13x18 - it still fits within viewing range of hi-res lens.

There are silver halide films that are prone to Newton rings even if put emulsion down, e.g. Wephota FO5 - its emulsion side is as glossy as the reverse one. That's why I've decided for EvenBetterScanning (R) - a DIY adjustable under-mounting holder, made out of 'anti-Newton glass' (a piece of glass from anti-reflex clip-frame). First try yesterday was promising, but you can't do the same for 8x10 (for V700/750). What I'm afraid of is film flatness, but it shouldn't be worse than in a glass-less frame.

Just reading over the few threads I've found on the internet regarding wet or dry scanning and flat on the bed or raised on glass...


how critical are we talking here, in terms of difference in sharpness? Is this fine-art massive-print looked-at-through-a-loupe-by-a-fine-art-critic type critical sharpness or is it clearly distinguishable even by looking at on a computer screen by the average LF punter like me?

I only ask because I will only be able to scan my 8x10 negatives for the foreseeable future and would like to print from them, not overly massive but you know larger or about 24"-30" on the long side. Will sharpness really be that obvious or only to the highly tuned eye?

It seems a lot of you seem know a bit about what you're talking about but it sounds all very technical and I have to keep reminding myself that the people talking about these things are highly trained or critical of such things, rather than the pedestrian consumer...

Will I be satisfied with flat-on-the glass scans as an amateur photographer looking to print and frame rather than someone exhibiting in fine art exhibitions?

Cheers
Alex

The thing about the Epson V700 (and V750?) is that the film has to be on the platen glass for anything larger than 5x7. Newton rings are a nuisance when working with the film edge guide. Sometimes we get away with no rings, other times we are plagued by them. I recently bought a sheet of ANR glass from a vendor in the USA via eBay thinking well if it doesn't make things better I'll just have to use small formats like 4x5 and 5x7. So far the results are very encouraging. The negative is placed emulsion side down on the platen glass (no tape) with the film area guide in position and the ANR glass is placed on top of the negative with the matted side in contact with the negative. This is an example of a whole plate HP5 Plus negative scanned on my V700. I cannot detect any trace of Newton Rings. Please feel free to inspect as closely as you can and let me know if you disagree as my eyesight is not as good as it used to be...

http://u1.ipernity.com/38/29/71/32992971.e65f488c.jpg

RR

I'm only a 13" macbook pro so I can't say but otherwise it looks good to me.
Out of interest, do you have a link to the glass you bought on ebay?

Great shot too, by the way!

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Originally Posted by AlexGard

I'm only a 13" macbook pro so I can't say but otherwise it looks good to me.
Out of interest, do you have a link to the glass you bought on ebay?

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Item number: 181348940986

RR

Are you talking about anti-newton rings.
Just curious. Is anti reflection glass the same.

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Originally Posted by old time photo

Are you talking about anti-newton rings.
Just curious. Is anti reflection glass the same.

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Yes Anti Newton Ring = ANR. Anti reflection glass is different. I decided to go for the dearer ANR sheet for 8x10 (it is slightly larger) on the principle that buying cheap is expensive in the end if it doesn't work...
:)
RR

Good pointer... what say you about the betterscanning stuff? Too expensive to experiment with?

I have the Betterscanning gear for the V750.
I use it with MF and 4x5, and it gives much better results than using the stock Epson holders; a difference of 2-3mm in height contributes to much-improved sharpness.
Since scanning 8x10 directly on the platen uses a different lens in the scanner, I tape down the 8x10 neg, or place ANR glass on top of it, just as Rod suggested.

Anti-reflection (AR) glass has a coating on it to minimize reflection, just like coated lenses do. Using AR glass will minimize but not eliminate Newton's rings. This glass can be hard to clean without damage, depending on the coating. The coating tends to be much less sophisticated than the ones on good lenses.

Anti-glare glass is used in picture framing to spread out bright reflects to attempt to make them less noticeable. It has a fairly coarse texture on at least one side, and it lowers the sharpness and tonal range of the print. I don't use it in picture frames. Yuck. It is cheap, though, and one-sided versions will eliminate Newton's rings when used to hold down a negative, but the texture might be visible in the scan. The only way to know is to test it. It's available at local framing shops and Home Depot type store.

Anti Newton Glass has a texture on one side, and the texture is supposed to be fine enough to not show when the glass is used to hold down a negative. Manufacturers vary in quality. Focal Point in Florida is a source. I've used their stuff, both in my photo enlargers and with my scanner. It works well, but it's fairly expensive.

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Originally Posted by AlexGard

Good pointer... what say you about the betterscanning stuff? Too expensive to experiment with?

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I use Betterscanning stuff for 120 and like it although the 4x5 holder that comes with the scanner is remarkably good in use.... As far as I am aware there is no offering from Betterscanning to deal with the problem of sheet film bigger than 5x7 on the V700 (and V750?)

RR

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Originally Posted by Regular Rod

The thing about the Epson V700 (and V750?) is that the film has to be on the platen glass for anything larger than 5x7.

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I'm not sure why, but the forum has almost no discussion about using the lower resolution lens (i.e., the 8x10 lens) with a mounting station. If the best film height for this lens is variable (like the high-resolution SHR lens), it might actually exist slightly above the scanner bed, not directly on it, and require a mounting station for the very best critical results.

I suspect V700/V750 users who do careful film-height calibration for the SHR lens forget that doing the same tests for the lower resolution lens might be a very good idea, and prove a mounting station produces the best results for both lenses.

Adding more serendipity. I settled on using the 8x10 film guide with 8x10 piece of AN glass laying on the V700 platen. I then lay dry 5x7 or 8x10 negs emulsion down on top of that and use manual cropping with Vue Scan. Sometimes I need to tape a neg down, but mostly not. I set scan for final print size at 300 dpi.

Works for me on this particular scanner better than any other combo I tried.

I am a hobbyist, not a professional.

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Originally Posted by Randy Moe

Adding more serendipity. I settled on using the 8x10 film guide with 8x10 piece of AN glass laying on the V700 platen. I then lay dry 5x7 or 8x10 negs emulsion down on top of that and use manual cropping with Vue Scan.

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Doesn't scanning through the AN glass affect the scanned image quality?

Perhaps, but in my 20x30 Costco enlargements, I don't see it. They cost $9.00.

Good enough for government work as we used to say.

I am not a fan of using these methods, and prefer normal wet darkroom enlargement procedures.

I only need to please myself.

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Originally Posted by Lachlan 717

Doesn't scanning through the AN glass affect the scanned image quality?

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