Modifying a 5x7 Premo Long Focus Lens Board for Better Lenses

I have a 5x7 Premo Long Focus circa the late 1890's in very good condition except for the lens and shutter assembly which was a total loss. The lens that was on the camera was a Gundlach Opt. Co. but the original lens was probably a Baush & Lomb "Star" or "Victor" rectillinear lens (one of which I am looking for now). Now I intend to keep an original lens on the camera to stay true to authenticity but I would like to retrofit the camera with a better lens for more coverage. The camera is in perfect working order with light tight bellows (with 16-18 inches of extension!) and I've found that it has surprisingly more movement then I would have expected. I'd like to put a 210mm lens (capable of covering 5x7 with movements) on the camera to do some more movement oriented shooting (I will of course also shoot with an original lens if I can find one). The problem is that the lens board is only 2 3/4 inches x 2 3/4 inches and the hole for the lens is only 1 7/16 inches in diameter, far too small to fit a 210mm lens onto. I know that this particular camera is seen very rarely but the sister to it, the Premo Senior, is somewhat more common and I was hoping that someone out there has experimented with bigger lenses on these cameras and could offer some insight. I understand that I can enlarge the hole in the lens board (I'd prefer not to alter the original lens board) or make a new lens board with a bigger hole but are there any other options to get more bang out of this camera? Thanks in advance for your insight!

I have the reprint of the original Rochester Optical Co Catalogue from 1898. I'll find the original page that covers the long focus. It probably had a convertible lens. This is just up my street as I have his brother's Poco 8x10 long focus!

There was also a premo long focus special. This had more movements and came with a goerz series III (Dagor). They recommended that the rear element of the series III should be used by itself for longer shots!
There is separate info on the Victor etc. if you are interested?
I doubt whether many existing Victor shutters still work.

Thanks for uploading those. Very interesting to see. I agree that its unlikely to find a fully working original lens/ shutter assembly so what do you think might be a good solution to get it shooting again? Are there any lenses that would cover the cameras range of movements and fit the camera's lens board without modification? Any idea how many millimeters focal length the original lenses were. Just looking at the one that came with the camera (doesn't say a size), it barely looks bigger then a medium format lens (which gives me a hard time in understanding how it covered 5x7). Anyway, thanks again and I hope you have some ideas for me. I'd really love to use this camera and I already have four 5x7 film holders on the way haha.

On a page of the 1898 catalogue it also says that the Zeiss VIIa no.8 is also now available for the long focus premo. This would be excellent 3 focus "original choice". The single elements of the protar are better than the goerz dagor.
Premo 5x7 holders are no problem - even I have them!.
I would guess that the original dagor was either the 167mm or the 180mm. The combination of the no 8 Protar VIIa can be found on cameraeccentric's website.
The cheap RR would be symmetrical with only 2 posibilities.

Thanks for all of the information! I'll be thinking about the No. 8 Protar on Cameraeccentric's website but it doesn't look like it has a shutter unfortunately. You've helped me out a lot. Now I need to figure out what to do! :)

The Zeiss VIIa has probably supplied by B&L. The 1912 catalogue at cameraeccentric shows no. 8 as covering 5x7, with focal lengths 7 1/2, 113/4, 13 3/4". Could be supplied in a volute or Compound shutter.

I'm not as pessimistic as Mr. Tribe regarding the Victor. There really isn't all that much to go wrong with them. Dirty air cylinders are the most common problem.

Do you have one for me!!? :)

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Originally Posted by Ernest Purdum

I'm not as pessimistic as Mr. Tribe regarding the Victor. There really isn't all that much to go wrong with them. Dirty air cylinders are the most common problem.

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Their main problem is their very construction. At higher speeds the air cylinders are not of use and the shutter relies on its spring. However, having no timing device (except the cylinders useless for those speeds) the spring itself is not enough to time the speed correctly.

Hmm. Having never seen a Premo Long Focus I went looking for images of one, found this: http://www.thepriceguide.com.au/inde...era-wood-case/

The image doesn't make it perfectly clear whether the board is detachable, but it seems to be. If so, many modern 210/5.6 lenses are in #1 shutters. The #1 goes in a 39 mm hole and a #1 Copal's outer diameter is 73 mm.

Putting a lens in #1 on the beast should be possible, will require a new board or boring a larger hole in the one you have. What have I missed?

I'll be taking photographs of all of my cameras over the next few days to make a section for then on my website. I'll upload some pictures of the Premo Long Focus here so everyone can see it. It really is a very unique camera (the picture you link to doesn't do it justice).

The lens board is detachable. Move a switch and it drops down and out (opposite how the board on a Speed Graphic would).

I just picked up a Bausch and Lomb Unicum lens and shutter (I believe this was the predecessor to the Victor lens that came on many of the Premo Long Focus and Premo Senior cameras) on a lens board. This is another lens used on the Premo line so I'm banking on the board being the same side. I'll sway this lens/shutter onto the original lens board and keep that as an authentic function lens and I'll bore out the hole on the new board so that it takes larger lenses. I have an 8.5 inch Kodak Commercial Ektar in a #3 Acme Shutter that I swap between a few cameras that I'd like to see on the Premo Long Focus it fits. Its 8.5 inch/ 215.9 mm so should have no problem covering 5x7 (am I right about this?).

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Originally Posted by Fragomeni

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I just picked up a Bausch and Lomb Unicum lens and shutter (I believe this was the predecessor to the Victor lens that came on many of the Premo Long Focus and Premo Senior cameras) on a lens board.
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No, the Unicum shutter is the same construction as the Victor, made in the same time. There were more than ten different names given to these shutters, some of them having a slightly different dimensions but the same basic construction. (while I'm typing this I have a nice Unicum shutter with its lens in front of me, used as a paper weight - after I have discovered it is useless for precise shutter timings). These shutters were out of business in about 10 years after their invention due to their insufficiency in "modern" (of that time) photography. Pity, they look nice, don't they?

Poco and Premo were for "photo interested amateur" but all models had detachable lensboards. There was quite a range of lens alternatives. Besides the RR, and the Goerz series III, Zeiss VIIa, there was a rear landscape achromat. In addition, two wide angle cells could be installed in the Victor. My problem with the Victor, or rather the Poco variant, is that it still works - but doesn't give either reliable or reproducable exposure times. If anyone is interested in admiring the woodwork of the Premo, there is a nude Premo Senior on e**y (Germany).

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Originally Posted by Fragomeni

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I just picked up a Bausch and Lomb Unicum lens and shutter (I believe this was the predecessor to the Victor lens that came on many of the Premo Long Focus and Premo Senior cameras) on a lens board.
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Now it is the time for a test...:( Do you know the special optical property of the shutter blades material in your Unicum shutter? If not yet, take a closer look at the shutter blades through the lens while shining a torch light through it from the other side (or look at the sun through the lens in the same way)...;) :( (It is called the Galli test in the modern physics texbooks...)

If your measurements are correct your borad has an opening that should just be large enough for a #1 shutter (17/16 ~ 39mm) according to Dan's dimensions. The shuttter itself will overhang: I dont know if this will be a problem---is the board recessed behind standards or flush. If you have a #1 shutter why not give it a go without modification?

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No, the Unicum shutter is the same construction as the Victor, made in the same time. There were more than ten different names given to these shutters, some of them having a slightly different dimensions but the same basic construction. (while I'm typing this I have a nice Unicum shutter with its lens in front of me, used as a paper weight - after I have discovered it is useless for precise shutter timings). These shutters were out of business in about 10 years after their invention due to their insufficiency in "modern" (of that time) photography. Pity, they look nice, don't they?

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Thanks for the correction. I've seen both positions written (same thing vs. predecessor) but I dont think it really matters haha. Either way, you are right, they are quite nice to look at. It would be nice to have one that was also consistent and dependable with its timing.

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Poco and Premo were for "photo interested amateur" but all models had detachable lensboards. There was quite a range of lens alternatives. Besides the RR, and the Goerz series III, Zeiss VIIa, there was a rear landscape achromat. In addition, two wide angle cells could be installed in the Victor. My problem with the Victor, or rather the Poco variant, is that it still works - but doesn't give either reliable or reproducable exposure times. If anyone is interested in admiring the woodwork of the Premo, there is a nude Premo Senior on e**y (Germany).

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Where did you find the information on the lenses that were available? Can you share a link please. I'd like to pick up a few and see what I can do with it.

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Now it is the time for a test... Do you know the special optical property of the shutter blades material in your Unicum shutter? If not yet, take a closer look at the shutter blades through the lens while shining a torch light through it from the other side (or look at the sun through the lens in the same way)... (It is called the Galli test in the modern physics texbooks...)

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Haha, do you mean...paper!? At least this is what the shutter blades in the lens that came with the camera, a Gundlach Op. Co., were made of. I took it apart since it was already a loss. I tell ya, I can string down practically any camera and rebuild it with my eyes closed and both hands and one hand tied behind my back but shutters still terrify me. This one I actually managed to get working a little smoother but when I got into the aperture blades (there were completely fused/melted together and warped to death) I tried peeling them apart and re-assembling them (purely for exercise as they would have operated even if I got it) and it was a nightmare. I'd love to be able to CLA and repair a shutter and aperture blades like I can a camera but I just dont think its in the cards.

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If your measurements are correct your borad has an opening that should just be large enough for a #1 shutter (17/16 ~ 39mm) according to Dan's dimensions. The shuttter itself will overhang: I dont know if this will be a problem---is the board recessed behind standards or flush. If you have a #1 shutter why not give it a go without modification?

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Can you explain exactly what you mean by a #1 shutter. I think Im confusing myself a little. The original lens/ shutter assembly had completely non functioning aperture blades and now after my effort to dissect it, its in pieces on my bench. The new lens/shutter I have coming for it looks to be the same size. Is it this shutter (lens/ shutter assembly) you're referring to as a #1 or are you talking about getting a Packard or something?


So now that we've been talking about the original options, what are some ideas on retrofitting the camera with a modern and sharper lens? Any ideas on a good course of action. The camera is just so cool and it has the ability to bring some useful movements into the picture so I'd love to get it set up to take some serious pictures.

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Originally Posted by Fragomeni

Can you explain exactly what you mean by a #1 shutter. I think Im confusing myself a little. The original lens/ shutter assembly had completely non functioning aperture blades and now after my effort to dissect it, its in pieces on my bench. The new lens/shutter I have coming for it looks to be the same size. Is it this shutter (lens/ shutter assembly) you're referring to as a #1 or are you talking about getting a Packard or something?


So now that we've been talking about the original options, what are some ideas on retrofitting the camera with a modern and sharper lens? Any ideas on a good course of action. The camera is just so cool and it has the ability to bring some useful movements into the picture so I'd love to get it set up to take some serious pictures.

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Standard sizes in "modern" shutters are 0,1,3 see http://www.skgrimes.com/compur/ and http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shutters.html for more. There was a 00 for miniature cameras and a #2 which is not used now. Im not quite sure when things settled on these dimensions, but in Europe maybe the 40s and pretty much everywhere by the 60s?

Your modern lens will mostly come in such a shutter: the choices are enormous. For the size of the camera I would suggest the classic 203mm f7.7 kodak ektar. It is small lightweight and sharp and will cover 5x7 nicely ( the ektar will be in kodaks own shutter but of similar size to a copal 1).

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Standard sizes in "modern" shutters are 0,1,3 see http://www.skgrimes.com/compur/ and http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shutters.html for more. There was a 00 for miniature cameras and a #2 which is not used now. Im not quite sure when things settled on these dimensions, but in Europe maybe the 40s and pretty much everywhere by the 60s?

Your modern lens will mostly come in such a shutter: the choices are enormous. For the size of the camera I would suggest the classic 203mm f7.7 kodak ektar. It is small lightweight and sharp and will cover 5x7 nicely ( the ektar will be in kodaks own shutter but of similar size to a copal 1).

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Thank you. Can anyone confirm that a no. 1 shutter will work with this? I may be able to pick up a 250mm lens in a no.1 and confirmation would be nice before I spend any more money.

The lens is in a Copal 1 shutter.

If you look around, you may be able to find a small convertible rapid rectilinear lens that will easily fit your lensboard. I have a circa 1905 5x7 Seneca camera that has a small Wollensak convertible RR with 8", 14" and 18" markings on the shutter. It is in a 3x3" lensboard that is drilled about equivalent to a modern No.0 shutter. Coverage at 8" is not much more than the film diagonal at f/16, however. Not a lot of room for movements. Plenty of room for the shutter/lens on the lensboard.

Peter Gomena

So I just went ahead and picked up the 250mm. Its a FUJI FUJINON W 250mm f/6.3 COPAL-No.1 Shutter. Looks like it should work well with minimal modification to the lens board. Ideally, the board it comes on will fit but the chances of that are probably slim. The lens should be here in about a week. I'll update when it arrives. In the mean time, any other ideas?

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Originally Posted by Fragomeni

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Haha, do you mean...paper!? At least this is what the shutter blades in the lens that came with the camera, a Gundlach Op. Co., were made of. I took it apart since it was already a loss. I tell ya, I can string down practically any camera and rebuild it with my eyes closed and both hands and one hand tied behind my back but shutters still terrify me. This one I actually managed to get working a little smoother but when I got into the aperture blades (there were completely fused/melted together and warped to death) I tried peeling them apart and re-assembling them (purely for exercise as they would have operated even if I got it) and it was a nightmare. I'd love to be able to CLA and repair a shutter and aperture blades like I can a camera but I just dont think its in the cards.


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The Unicum (Victor etc.) shutters are simple, you can disassemble them without fear of not being able to put it all back, at least if you have some basic mechanic skills. Some parts have critical positioning. You can also help yourself with digi photos during the disassembly.
The shutter blades material is that time "plastic" (I forgot the name of it) that is not fully light tight hence you can see through it (in red) strong light sources.
Mechanically they were not correctly invented and didn't work properly after their manufacture, therefore they have further "improvements" that made them acceptable at least for the slow speeds.
They helped to move camera manufacturing from wood workshops to mechanical workshops though...;-)

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Poco and Premo were for "photo interested amateur" but all models had detachable lensboards. There was quite a range of lens alternatives. Besides the RR, and the Goerz series III, Zeiss VIIa, there was a rear landscape achromat. In addition, two wide angle cells could be installed in the Victor. My problem with the Victor, or rather the Poco variant, is that it still works - but doesn't give either reliable or reproducable exposure times. If anyone is interested in admiring the woodwork of the Premo, there is a nude Premo Senior on e**y (Germany).

Where did you find the information on the lenses that were available? Can you share a link please. I'd like to pick up a few and see what I can do with it.


As I mentioned before, I have the main Premo catalogue for 1898 in my collection. Apart from the entry for the Premo Long focus, there is additional information throughout the catalogue. It is not available online, I'm afraid. The reprint edition from 1971 has renewed copyright protection. I can send info so you can find it on Abebooks?

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As I mentioned before, I have the main Premo catalogue for 1898 in my collection. Apart from the entry for the Premo Long focus, there is additional information throughout the catalogue. It is not available online, I'm afraid. The reprint edition from 1971 has renewed copyright protection. I can send info so you can find it on Abebooks?

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Please do send the information. I'd be interested in seeing that. Are you aware of any way to check the serial number to find the actual year of manufacture for the particular camera?

As others may have a Premo, I'm posting the info here.

The Premo Camera
Rochester Optical Co.
Camera, Lenses, Accessories

Illustrated Catalog and Historical Introduction

103 pages plus historical post script
American Historical Catalog Collection

The Pyne Press, Princeton 1st edition, 1971

lib of congress cat. 78-146207
isbn 0-87861-005-7
soft covers

As regards serial numbers (under the front frame, where the bed fits?) I can't help you. There is a progression from brass to nickel plated. Poco is easier, as the company changed it's name many times in the 1890's
!There are lots on Abebooks (I have no connection with Abebooks) and they are dirt cheap!
I have just bought a copy for you Francesco as I have an Abe account!

Just wanted to update. I received two of the three lenses I picked up for the Premo Long Focus. One is a period Unicum lens and the other is the FUJINON W 250mm f/6.3 COPAL-No.1 Shutter. The Unicum went right on the camera (after putting it on the original lens board) and the Fujinon is not rigged and ready as well after I made a lens board for it. I haven't put any film through them yet as I'm waiting on an order of TMAX 100 5x7 B&W to come in (probably wont be in for at least 4 more weeks unfortunately) but I anticipate great things. I've been thinking about picking up a 5x7 field camera, actually almost bought a Deardorff 5x7 on ebay today but I used my better judgement given that I have no money left after my recent purchases, but I think with some minor modifications (that wont even have to alter the camera much) I'll be able to use the Premo Long Focus with the Fujinon lens very effectively for 5x7 shooting. I'm in the middle of moving into a new house but when all of my equipment is in one place I'll be adding pictures of the Premo Long Focus with the lenses to my website's camera collection section and I'll probably post them here too so you all can see the beast! I have to admit the camera looks amazing with the big Fujinon lens on it!

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I have just bought a copy for you Francesco as I have an Abe account!

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By the way, thank you for the information Steven!