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Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I was looking more closely at this early, quarterplate Lerebours et Secretan lens today, and noticed a glint of something at the edge of the rear glass. At first I thought it was a miniscule edge chip I'd not noticed before.
Then I looked closer....and closer... finally through a loupe. They had engraved the serial number on the glass face, not the usual French practice of pen/pencil marking on the ground edge itself. The number matches the barrel, a cool discovery about these earliest of makers (it's pre 1855). White thing in photo is a grain of rice for scale. Lerebours owners, better go check your glass.
http://www.collodion.com/forum/uploa...rebour9046.jpg
http://www.collodion.com/forum/uploads/688/LERE2.JPG
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
That is cool Garrett. I will have to check mine which is about the same FL as yours. Do you have a list of their serial numbers/years? Jon
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
No, I wish I had a serial number list. My research shows they made lenses from 1845 to 1855, but I need to research more to be sure.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I just checked another, larger Lerebours et Secretan I have, it's serial number is also engraved in tiny script on the rear glass. They are ~4000 numbers apart, I have to believe this was a process Lerebours followed. Anyone else check theirs?
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
goamules
I just checked another, larger Lerebours et Secretan I have, it's serial number is also engraved in tiny script on the rear glass. They are ~4000 numbers apart, I have to believe this was a process Lerebours followed. Anyone else check theirs?
I checked mine which is about 210mm and it too has serial numbers engraved on the front and back lens. Serial #8941
Jon
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
This is all very interesting! Could this be an etching (strong acid) rather than engraving? The risks of loosing many days work would otherwise seem to great?
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
mine look like engraving.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Yes Eddie, the digits look too deep - miniscule diamond drill perhaps? The 0 looks too round for normal engraving techniques?
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
And now, a challenge: why do you think it was important to serialize the glass along with the barrel?
Here is another one of mine:
http://www.collodion.com/forum/uploa...graved5038.jpg
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
"And now, a challenge: why do you think it was important to serialize the glass along with the barrel?"
Rampant counterfeiting, it would be difficult the fake the engraving on the glass
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Paul Fitzgerald
"And now, a challenge: why do you think it was important to serialize the glass along with the barrel?"
Rampant counterfeiting, it would be difficult the fake the engraving on the glass
huh? just engrave the counterfeit glass as well! easy.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Not that easy! You would need a drive axel from a hand/steam-driven engine as well as a very fine diamond drill.
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Tiny signature on Jamin lens also
I was examining my Jamin (pre-Darlot) Cone Centralizer lens (serial 11xx) and discovered a tiny script signature on the edge of the rear glass. So it appears it was not just Lerebours that engraved the glass, though in the Jamin it is signed with his name, not the serial number.
Interestingly, I read that Lerebours and Alphonse Darlot knew each other. I don't know what year Darlot started working with Jamin, but I bet one influenced the other with the engraving idea.
http://www.collodion.com/forum/uploads/688/SIGNED2.JPG
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I think they needed to keep the parts organized...EC
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Perhaps this engraving of the outer surface of the outer lens at the rear of the Petzval was basically to ensure that the pair was assembled correctly - either in the original workshop - or after cleaning? The air space does pick up a lot of dust during the years. We all have seen Petzvals that have two lenses switched or reversed. Jamin has a nice short name - but Lerebours et Secretan would have filled almost half the diameter, hence the serial number use? So I think evan may be correct!
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Here is a photo of one of my Lerebours again. The number matches the serial number on the barrel.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3891/...f8421d90_b.jpg
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I have some new information about surface edge serial numbers, which may also shed some light on Lerebours & Secretan's history.
I purchased a half plate Petzval in the UK a couple of years ago, engraved JFS. Did not look to much at it until last weekend.
I knew that it has the usual french style indian ink " Paris" and the same serial number as on the barrel "6477"? In addition, there is a pencil text "JFS".
I assumed this was an early "No name" french import made by J.F.Shew of London when he just an retail and selling agent.
The most likely date was just before 1860, as this was without a WH stop. I have another french lens, similarly without WHS, sold in 1859 or 1860 by Gilbert Fleming who only had his shop at New Oxford Street for these years. Perhaps the french makers were down-loading their surplus non WHS lenses at this time in the UK market?
Anyway, as you have guessed, this JFS lens has a complete set of rice engraving on the two outside glass surfaces. THey are completely identical to those on L&S as shown earlier in this thread. The number is the same as on the lens sides and the engraved number on the barrel.
I am inclined to think that the number is part of the L&S serial number sequence, rather than representing Shew's endeavours. The number matches where L&S would got to in the late 1850's. Unless someone has a "real" L&S with 6477 serial number?
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Good find Steven! Another Lerebours, I'd say.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Superb detective work!
Kent in SD
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
More news for historical intrested.
It is not only the rear meniscus lens that has the edge scratched with the serial, the front surface of the inner concave/Convex is also marked in the same way. At least on my JFS/L&S 6477.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I am now the owner of JFS (Lerebours?) serial number 6425, which is a pill box type landscape achromat. This was also a major product from Lerebours in the 1850's.
Wrongly listed as Magic Lantern and JES engraving. Will it also have the lens edge scratched serial numbers?
More info in a week.
For the very interested, here is the link.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/J-E-S-OLD-...gAAOSwuxFYw7Ju
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Isn't this a Petzval with a missing element?
Kent in SD
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
No, I don't think so.
The inner barrel is quite short. There is a thread cut inside the open front end, so it hasn't been shortened. The seller described the rear lens as a single lens.
THere are three different landscape designs shown in D'Agostini's book, which have a screw-in plate with the front washer stop arrangement.
The example illustrated on page 239 is particularly interesting as it has a serial number just 3 away from my JFS. That is, 6422 rather than 6425.
The serial number is also only 50 or so away from the other JF Shew lens I have, which could mean that he got hold of a restrcted number of these. Shew was very much a one man business in the 1850's and I doubt he could have reached this serial number, unless he just used the lens scratched numbers from Lerebours to make the brass engraving serial number.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
The J.F.Shew/Lerebours & Secretan landscape meniscus lens arrived to-day. The edge scratches noted by the seller are, indeed the "rice" numerals and match the sleeve engraved numbers. There is not enough thread at the front to screw-in a lens cell due to the racking track, so it once had an end plate with pill box.
As I wrote in another thread on Maugey, a 1850's catalogue/advert for J.F.Shew exists , where he says he has imported Lerebours and Maugey for sale in London.
The threads on the two JFS lenses are identical which means only one flange is necessary and the petzval achromat can be used as an extra long landscape lens.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Very good analysis and find!
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Attachment 162620
The smaller lens, #3636, has the matching number on the glass but on the inside of the rear element... couldn't find it then finally examined with a magnifier in raking sunlight and voila! At 6x, it appears to be engraved or scratched onto the glass.
Thus far, I haven't found it on the larger lens #7927.
Russ
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
A reversed rear lens perhaps on the smaller one?
I read the larger one as 2729. I think this is made in the period before his fetish with edge engraving began. Later Lerebours' (9,000?) are also without edge scratchings. Later: serial no. 8941 has lens scratchings as the highest number known at present.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I wondered the same thing, Steven. The lens throws an image of about the proper focal length and it is quite sharp - as it is currently assembled, which seems to indicate a correctly oriented element. Is there an error in my logic?
Russ
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Some Petzval bl - convexes have very similar curves. I'll measure up my lerebourses tomorrow.
But there is a big difference. The flatter side points outwards.
Perhaps of relevence is a recently sold Lerebours et Secretan. This seemed to have two sets of 4 digit numbers on the rear face. This is a lens I didn't bid on as the front achromat surface looked unserviceable, unfortunately. I asked him about the numbers - thinking replacement. It turned out it was the same (correct serial number) 4 digit number, engraved on both sides of the lens. I'll try and find a photo from the listing.
It was Lerebours 6821.
If you look at photo no. 7, you will see the two sets of rear digits at the bottom. I was drawn to this as the outer number looks like it has been done by another method than the usual diamond pen - there are curves, rather than straight lines. The internal number is "standard scratching"! Quality control found this, at least!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Lere...p2047675.l2557
Later!
I have just had some correspondence with our "exclusive" Parisian shop owner. One of his items is a non-serial number Lerebours. I could see 4 equally spaced edge marks on his rear lens photo that looked very much like they could be the "four digits". I asked him to check, but "no there is nothing there". So then I sent him some of the photos from this thread. 30 minutes later he replied that they were there after all and the number was 4655 - about 1855 period. So (some) plain Lerebours barrels have concealed serial numbers.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Steven, I examined the rear element and the side facing towards the film is almost flat... so it seems to be oriented correctly.
Russ
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Another JFS imported Lerebours lens to-day on the bay. Exactly the same petzval that I have!
This one has a slightly later serial number (They use Lerebours serial number series) 7081.
I think this is near the end of lens edge numbering - or perhaps just after it stopped.
Obviously, it is now general knowledge that J.F. Shew got his lenses from Lerebours so my bid was well under two others.
If the winner sees this, it would nice to know whether the lens marking had ceased? Ebay 292276743237.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I have a 15" f5 Lerebours et Secretan lens I acquired recently, serial No. 7799, with matching numbers engraved on the front and rear elements. Any of you more knowledgeable folks have an idea what year this might have been made?
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4750/3...229925e2_b.jpg
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I'll get back to you on this! I await the arrival of the Le reve edition booklet on Lerebours which has just been published in France. I don't know whether it will add to our knowledge about serial numbers, dates and lens scratching, but it might!
Your lens was one of the last to get the lens marking treatment - it was gone by 7900! Not true - see serial number list later in this thread!
Is that the original aperture cup inserted in the lens hood? Most of these were discarded when Waterhouse stops were added after 1860.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Steven Tribe
I'll get back to you on this! I await the arrival of the Le reve edition booklet on Lerebours which has just been published in France. I don't know whether it will add to our knowledge about serial numbers, dates and lens scratching, but it might!
Your lens was one of the last to get the lens marking treatment - it was gone by 7900!
Is that the original aperture cup inserted in the lens hood? Most of these were discarded when Waterhouse stops were added after 1860.
Thanks for anything you can add to my knowledge of its history, Steven!
And yes, that is the original aperture cup in the lens hood! Amazingly, the felt is in remarkably good condition as well. After 160 years, the odds of a lens like this surviving at all is astonishing, never mind in such good shape, and with most of its parts!
The lens flares pretty easily, which is to be expected, but renders beautiful values and sharpness when used as a wet plate lens: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4725/2...07d30279_b.jpg
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I think it was only Hermagis and Lerebours who used these insert cup apertures. These two may have had some informal co-operation as I have one of each from the same period (late 1850's) and the same size, which are identical in every dimension. The only difference is that Lerebours used a finer thread than Hermagis on lens cells and brass hoods.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Derogy and Jamin used them too, If you are talking about the internal fitting that supported a washer-like stop.
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4 Attachment(s)
Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
The construction is similar to the between lens insert (which was replaced by the WHS system) and echos the pill box stop system. But it is a cup system - pushed inside the brass hood - which has a mount for various sized washer stops just in front of the front achromat.
It is not surprising that most of these have been lost or thrown away.
You can see the edge of the Lerebours cup in post #32 - with the pipe wrench marks!
My smaller, no number, Hermagis is below , showing construction
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
This is the “cup stop” insert from my Lerebours 15”
Attachment 174547 from the front.
Attachment 174548 rear view.
The velvet inside the hood is still intact and in surprisingly good condition, for its age! (160 years, give or take)
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
This has exactly the same profile as the Hermagis cup I have. I think "cup insert" is a good term for them, although I have never seen any written description of the system! Mine has the original felt seal/bearing too.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Steven Tribe
This has exactly the same profile as the Hermagis cup I have. I think "cup insert" is a good term for them, although I have never seen any written description of the system! Mine has the original felt seal/bearing too.
Steve,
I’ve seen reference to it being called a “timber stop” also, but I have no idea if this is correct.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Well, I received the P et P booklet covering Lerebours et Secretan. It is at least as comprehensive as any of the other sections I have seen. This is just a short reference relating to things taken up in this thread, I'll come back later with more!
1. Believe it or not- but our French friends have not discovered the micro scratching of seriai numbers on lenses which existed for a long period in the 1850's.
2. The cup inserts we have described here are called "Diaphragme emboite". They date this system as being from before 1855 and the central washer system as post 1855. And Waterhouse stops after 1860.
3. Serial numbers and Dates.
1839 - 1845. no serial numbers
1845. - 1850. 2000 to 5000
1850 - 1855. 5000 to 8000
1855. - 1860. 8000 to 11000
1860 - 1865. 11000 to 12900
Lowest number reported by them is 2012 and highest is 12609!
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
I think this serial number list will push back quite a lot of your Lerebours lenses to the 1840's!
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Steven Tribe
Well, I received the P et P booklet covering Lerebours et Secretan. It is at least as comprehensive as any of the other sections I have seen. This is just a short reference relating to things taken up in this thread, I'll come back later with more!
1. Believe it or not- but our French friends have not discovered the micro scratching of seriai numbers on lenses which existed for a long period in the 1850's.
2. The cup inserts we have described here are called "Diaphragme emboite". They date this system as being from before 1855 and the central washer system as post 1855. And Waterhouse stops after 1860.
3. Serial numbers and Dates.
1839 - 1845. no serial numbers
1845. - 1850. 2000 to 5000
1850 - 1855. 5000 to 8000
1855. - 1860. 8000 to 11000
1860 - 1865. 11000 to 12900
Lowest number reported by them is 2012 and highest is 12609!
Thanks Steven! Great info. I was told my lens #7799 was mid-1850s so this confirms it.
PS: what is the P et P booklet?
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Steven Tribe
Merci!
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Steven Tribe
Very worthwhile and highly recommended, just got my Lerebours, Hermagis, Berthiot and Jamin/Darlot booklets ...
Cheers,
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Steven Tribe
So, by my estimation this 24 page "booklet" costs nearly fifty bucks USD, with shipping, is that correct? And it appears there is no English language option? But two people already have vouched for its merit.... Its worth it, is it?
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
It is a variety of what used to be called "subscription publication" in Victorian times. Just 100 examples of each dedicated booklet. Obviously the price would less if there was a larger market available - but there isn't! It isn't a profit-making organisation!
A single old catalogue would cost more. The ones I have bought have certainly been useful.
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paulbarden
So, by my estimation this 24 page "booklet" costs nearly fifty bucks USD, with shipping, is that correct? And it appears there is no English language option? But two people already have vouched for its merit.... Its worth it, is it?
It helps that I speak French of course but yes, it is easy to use the images and the tables in the publications.
Was indeed surprised that they didn't mention the glass engraving with the serial number. (And we know their serial number table is no longer correct for the Hermagis lens ... )
Cheers,
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Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing
Thank you both, Steve and Rudi!