Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )

I was looking for Fujinon C 600mm F11.5 and the lenses are sold for crazy $8000 on eBay.
Recently I found Chinese brand Kang Rinpoche that produce the same lens and they say the lens is even better than the original.
There are even some tests on their taobao page, if they can be trusted: LINK
The lens with copal costs ¥13800 it is about $1900 (¥ 8800 without copal). Do you think it is worth buying? It is cheaper but it is some Chinese product and I doubt the quality.
Perhaps it is better to buy a cheaper older original Fujinon? It is about $3000 on eBay.

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i1/2...2680615720.jpg

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/2...2680615720.jpg

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i1/2...2680615720.jpg

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/2...2680615720.jpg

I found a forum thread about the lens and there are these test images and more samples http://forum.xitek.com/thread-1788951-3-1-1.html
they were at Photokina with the lens: http://forum.xitek.com/thread-1788951-1-1-1.html

Beyond resolving power, a Fujinon C is EBC multicoated, what coating has the Kang Rinpoche ?

Then, for what you want the a C 600 ?


It's great to see that choice, but at $4000 CatLabs (https://www.catlabs.info/product/bra...fujinon-design) should be offering extensive technical information and a guarantee that samples have a consistent performance level. Fujinon LF glass was known to have very good QC with samples delivering a consistent level of performance.

Assuming you can order from Taobao, the exchange from the price in yuan is about $2,000, half the price quoted above.

Also available from the manufacturer on ebay (seller name 3s-krpc) for $2k.

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Originally Posted by JimL

Also available from the manufacturer on ebay (seller name 3s-krpc) for $2k.

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But this is not including shutter and (I guess) expenses at customs.

IIRC the last new copal 3 made were well over $1000...

The ebay offer requires you send a shutter to china to be mounted (aperture scale...) in the glass, so also add two fast and reliable overseas shippings...

So the catlabs offer is representative for the actual cost, plus regular commercial margin that may allow to provide a close customer support.

Of course by you sending a used shutter to china and dealing with customs you may save money, but less than it looks, and if having a problem you don't have a local dealer.

I was looking at this listing, which appears to include the shutter. Under quantity it says 10 are available. I couldn't see the listing you were looking at, and I would expect the price without shutter to be less.

You are right, it includes a used shutter, and ships from Hong Kong...

And the green reflections points it's MC...

hmmm, I guess they selected well the design to start with... only 4 elements and no balsam

It's amazing to see that... world is changing.

One of these days we may see a copal 3 electronic shutter from them, it won't be a surprise.

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Originally Posted by Pere Casals

It's amazing to see that... world is changing.

One of these days we may see a copal 3 electronic shutter from them, it won't be a surprise.

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That's the intriguing part - if they can cobble together a whole Fujinon 600C why don't they do the same with a Copal 3 shuttter? I wonder. Did they suddenly get conscientious about the intellectual property?

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Originally Posted by Pfsor

That's the intriguing part - if they can cobble together a whole Fujinon 600C why don't they do the same with a Copal 3 shuttter? I wonder. Did they suddenly get conscientious about the intellectual property?

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Patents expire, or even you can file a new patent over a design if it is an improvement.

Of course making a size 3 shutter with a new electronic drive today would be the easiest way (IMHO), and this would not be prevented by other's industrial property.

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Originally Posted by Pere Casals

Patents expire, or even you can file a new patent over a design if it is an improvement.

Of course making a size 3 shutter with a new electronic drive today would be the easiest way (IMHO), and this would not be prevented by other's industrial property.

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If the Copal is an expired patent then the question stands even more - why don't they make it together with the lens? Much easier than buying used shutters and putting them to the new lens. And even easier than inventing (ouch!) a new electronic shutter - needing a control box nobody has... It intrigues me.

Furthermore, if they are serious about serial production of the lens - in that case they needed to buy all standing stock of used Copal 3 shutters in the world! How otherwise could they arm their lenses and sell them? Something doesn't add up in it.

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Originally Posted by Pfsor

If the Copal is an expired patent then the question stands even more - why don't they make it together with the lens? Much easier than buying used shutters and putting them to the new lens. And even easier than inventing (ouch!) a new electronic shutter - needing a control box nobody has... It intrigues me.

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Are the Size 3 shutter threads protected ? if not the rest is state of the art.

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Originally Posted by Pfsor

And even easier than inventing (ouch!) a new electronic shutter - needing a control box nobody has... It intrigues me.

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I think it can be done without a control box, the electronics can be embedded inside, it can be regular shutter mechanism but substituting all clockwork by a tinny electronic microcontroller and an small actuator for triggering the closing movement. It would also be needed a little sensor that tells that the shutter is open, that sensor can be optical detecting the end of travel condition for the blades. This is how I imagined that way when playing with a disassembled shutter...

I guess that if clockwork mechanics can be avoided then such a project could be straighter.

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Originally Posted by Pere Casals

Are the Size 3 shutter threads protected ? if not the rest is state of the art.
I think it can be done without a control box, the electronics can be embedded inside, it can be regular shutter mechanism but substituting all clockwork by a tinny electronic microcontroller and an small actuator for triggering the closing movement. It would also be need a little sensor that tells that the shutter is open, that sensor can be optical detecting the end of travel condition for the blades. This is how I imagined that way when playing with a disassembled shutter...

I guess that if clockwork mechanics can be avoided then such a project could be straighter.

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Either the whole shutter design is still protected (patents can be prolonged!) or not, has nothing to do with its threads.
An electronic shutter also needs the speeds input part and its actuator is not a miniature part either. In fact, electronic shutters make little sense for LF cameras not used in a studio. It just adds another part (the controlling box, batteries) to carry in the field and the accuracy of the shutter speeds is more than enough with a well functioning mechanical shutter.

The speed input can be anyway in a lever on the shutter, battery would very small
And accuracy guanteed...

Also it's the way cost can be low for a low run production, my bet is that if they end offering their own shutters those would be of an electronic design

I know - the proverbial piece of cake. Until you try to make it, that is. Don't forget - when electronic shutters started to be produced for LF lenses, the industry was also capable of miniaturization. Yet, somehow, the control box did not find its way to the shutter lever... :(

Funny, Compur did it.

See, e.g., https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...D=222563769934 for #1 and https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...mpur-3-shutter for #3.

You may have been thinking of Ilex/Melles Griot, Rollei or Schneider electronic shutters.

Speed control could easily be on the shutter via small push buttons and alpha-numeric display. There's no need for a lever. Ease-of-use could be enhanced by a wired or wireless remote. The aperture could be controlled similarly. No matter what they do, if they do produce shutters, I'd plead with them to make nice ROUND apertures with many curved blades.

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Originally Posted by consummate_fritterer

Speed control could easily be on the shutter via small push buttons and alpha-numeric display. There's no need for a lever. Ease-of-use could be enhanced by a wired or wireless remote. The aperture could be controlled similarly. ...

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It could. If the Norwegian wood...

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Originally Posted by Dan Fromm

Funny, Compur did it.

See, e.g., https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...D=222563769934 for #1 and https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...mpur-3-shutter for #3.

You may have been thinking of Ilex/Melles Griot, Rollei or Schneider electronic shutters.

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While you're right I was thinking of Rollei etc. el. shutters still the battery compartment doesn't seem to be - very small. That piece of cake has yet to be baked, I'm afraid. But as I said, much more intriguing is to make lenses without shutters when they need one. Do they really think people will buy another lens with a Copal 3 to scavenge it in order to buy a lens they want to have? That way of doing business is most intriguing to me!

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Originally Posted by Dan Fromm

Funny, Compur did it.

See, e.g., https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...D=222563769934 for #1 and https://web.archive.org/web/20181203...mpur-3-shutter for #3.

You may have been thinking of Ilex/Melles Griot, Rollei or Schneider electronic shutters.

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Nice shutters!

In fact it can be done with a NE555 a transistor and some passive componets, but today a microcontroller is cheaper to use...

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Originally Posted by Pere Casals

Nice shutters!

In fact it can be done with a NEC555 a transistor and some passive componets, but today a microcontroller is cheaper to use...

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I have no doubt it can be done. If NASA needed it, it would be there with no problem. In the real world, however, where even en official (Copal) manufacturer leaves the field, what chances are that there will be another one who will miniaturize shutters, making them electronic ones for industry that is on the way out? It's nice to dream but look at the reality and see that all paraphernalia for LF photography are beasts in danger of extinction. That puts a different light on it, doesn't it? The Norwegian wood is good but so far there are new lenses without shutters - and even that is a phenomenon out of this world.

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Originally Posted by Pfsor

But as I said, much more intriguing is to make lenses without shutters when they need one. Do they really think people will buy another lens with a Copal 3 to scavenge it in order to buy a lens they want to have? That way of doing business is most intriguing to me!

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On the one hand, making lens cells or lens cells mounted in barrels for LF cameras doesn't seem to have good long term prospects. On the other hand, there are quite a few lenses in shutters and some of us have been scavenging shutters from them for years. Probably can't go on forever, but neither will we.

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Originally Posted by Dan Fromm

On the one hand, making lens cells or lens cells mounted in barrels for LF cameras doesn't seem to have good long term prospects. On the other hand, there are quite a few lenses in shutters and some of us have been scavenging shutters from them for years. Probably can't go on forever, but neither will we.

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Dan, that doesn't solve the intrigue. What you can do with a good reason as an individual amateur, you cannot do as a viable business firm. I would love to know what are the production numbers for this lens. The quality seems to be there but who can afford the production of a few dozens of them? And who can make them in thousands without the proper shutter? Something simply doesn't add up.

Pfsor, I would never said that I would see a chinese copy (perhaps good) of the Fujinon C 600, would you ?

It's hard to predict future, in theory film photography should be extinct by now, but there is a 7% yearly growth. The Arri Alexa camera had to be "the last nail in the coffin of film cinematography" 9 years ago, but (2019) Star Wars IX is being shot with film... and the Alexa may make the pre-shots to prepare for the real Kodak Vision 3 shootings.

Vynil records had to disapear decades ago, but see UK sales, for example:

Attachment 185056

Vynil new LP sells reached 16 million units and $395 million in revenue last year...

So... who knows ?

At the end IMHO there is a need for new shutters, if someone finds the way to make a cost effective product in small scale production conditions...

Pere, if they found a viable way of producing the extinct Fujinon 600C, then there would be hope, that with the same business model they can produce whatever else falls into the extinction pit. But something tells me, they don't have the secret yet. There must be another reason why they think it can be viable. Only future will tell us, that's for sure.

In fact, thinking of it, I suspect that some firm produces the lens as a side dish to their normal production (industrial lenses for ex.) And they hope, the numbers will pay in the end. But how many can they sell without the shutter and how many will sell with a scavenged shutter I would not like to predict. Most probably we will not see a second run of these...

Pfsor, we don't know it...

IMHO we are not well aware about LF activity in China, many forums cannot be even reached, and google translate from chinese it's hard to understand... but I'd say that LF has a significative growth there, and poulation is 1400 million people there...

Growth you say. In phone cameras surely. In the hand of everybody :) and growing...

Regarding LF in China - this came across my feed recently, from a friend in HK (no Facebook needed to view):
https://www.facebook.com/icablenews/...02961587250726

In phones, see Antutu benchmark, now best scores are for chinese brands...

but who else makes now C 600 glass ? also see the ShenHao offer... I've you can find chinese forums you will see that there is an internal demand, and strongs local societies.

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Originally Posted by Pere Casals

In phones, see Antutu benchmark, now best scores are for chinese brands...

but who else makes now C 600 glass ? also see the ShenHao offer... I've you can find chinese forums you will see that there is an internal demand, and strongs local societies.

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Just don't let yourself be fooled by the demand too much. As soon as they will have more money in their hands their interest will quickly turn to the new digital stuff, as everywhere else. So far they must be looking for the cheaper alternative... Doesn't the phone craze tell you something?

Well, I'm certainly going to keep an eye on this. I don't very much enjoy lugging out my Ronar 600mm and packard shutter and this is definitely viable alternative at a good price.

I have a spare copal 3 lying around, too.

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Originally Posted by Pfsor

their interest will quickly turn to the new digital stuff

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In this case it's the counter, they come from making money from accessories for digital cameras:

Attachment 185068

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Originally Posted by MAubrey

Well, I'm certainly going to keep an eye on this. I don't very much enjoy lugging out my Ronar 600mm and packard shutter and this is definitely viable alternative at a good price.

I have a spare copal 3 lying around, too.

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I hope they will have the idea to make the 450C variant. I have the Fujinon 600C - one of my most used lenses.

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Originally Posted by Pfsor

I hope they will have the idea to make the 450C variant. I have the Fujinon 600C - one of my most used lenses.

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That would be very appealing. And Copal #1's are in far more abundance, too.

Indeed.

Who knows if it's qualitatively equivalent to a Fuji C or not? I have the real deal and wouldn't want to gamble on a knock-off. Sometimes ridiculous asking prices appear on the web auction site by certain dealers. People rarely actually pay those ridiculous sums.

Perhaps our resident lens designer would think about making a comparable lens where the buyers supply their own shutters. The going prices might make a small run feasible.

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Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

Who knows if it's qualitatively equivalent to a Fuji C or not?

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Drew, still we don't know, first reports point it's a fine lens, we'll see...

But also let me add that today China has many high end lens manufacturing plants, rather than mass production we speak about massive mass production...

An example is a company named Lens Technology, founded by Zhou Qunfei (Hunan) only 12 years ago, the world's richest woman whose fortune is self made as stated by Forbes, 80,000 employees, selling $11 billion yearly.

In such an efficient industrial environment grinding the 4 elements of a C is a joke.

Then we have the fact that today's manufacturing tolerances are much narrower than when the C was discontinued.

So we'll see what Rinpoche is selling, but potentially it can be a fine product.

THE BELOW IS PURE SPECULATION - I DON'T WANT TO START ANY RUMORS.

Is it not possible that someone in China has contracted with Fuji for a private-label run of the 600mm to be supplied in barrel? I saw an internet rumor that one of the big German dealers (Greiner???) did this recently with Rodenstock for some Apo-Sironar-S lenses. It would be a good deal for Fuji as they would sell the whole run straight off, thus having no worries about shutters or inventory.

We'd probably have no way to find out.

Steve, at least the coatings are different, it looks, the green reflections of the chinese sample suggests a multi-coating, but not the Fujinon EBC one.

They picked a design that's easy to replicate, 4 air spaced elements (I guess all spherical surfaces)... you send the sample elements to some chinese facility and you get exact copies of high quality made with high end machinery with ultimate performance... with 10% to 20% of the cost than if you do that in a western country... this is the way the world turns today.

If they could identify the specific Schott or Hoya glass references for each element... then just grinding they had it done.

Not so fast. I've admittedly never seen one of these lenses. But time and again, I've been involved in situations where the Chinese precisely cloned the look of something relatively expensive, right down to illegally pirated brand and patent stamping, and the product turned out to be utter junk - looked very very good, but fell apart quickly. It's the ten buck Rolex watch story. I'm not saying that is automatically true this instance. But I sure wouldn't buy something like this without doing serious homework first. Fourn element lenses are the easiest to make. Bromwell and others imported four-element replacements for Commercial Ektars at reasonable pricing; but he told me in person that it was important to understand that these were decent "general purpose lenses", and not necessarily equivalent to the original for specialized applications. That kind of honesty is necessary. China has by far the biggest
optical manufacturing facilities in the world. A single plant not far from where the famous terra cotta warrior statues were uncovered employs over 30,000 people, and makes of the world's student-grade microscopes, amateur telescopes, survey optics, etc, and no doubt certain private-label lenses - usable products, but not top-tier. The relation to specialized glass types and exact coating can be a complex one. It not like a pancake recipe.

Yes, I reluctantly visit FB occasionally as we are often trapped or have no choice, especially if the link is not obviously FB. I still demure.

However, it does happen that some links give us good data.

The ULF lens seems to be pinhole and the well done news video shows the history of camera obscura visually. Audio is native.

I also notice the photographer and newswoman are both wearing the latest plastic eyeglass frames that many USA news people wear.

All it takes is a bit more news exposure and China may embrace LF and buy it all.

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Originally Posted by Corran

Regarding LF in China - this came across my feed recently, from a friend in HK (no Facebook needed to view):
https://www.facebook.com/icablenews/...02961587250726

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Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

employs over 30,000 people, and makes of the world's student-grade microscopes, amateur telescopes, survey optics, etc,

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Drew, take a look, please:

https://www.shanghai-optics.com/desi...e-engineering/
(https://web.archive.org/web/20180426...e-engineering/)

They have an Optotech machine for Asph. : https://www.shanghai-optics.com/comp...aspheric-lens/


Other reading:
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/design/
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/components/
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/assembly/

hmmm, these are not microscopes for kids... https://www.shanghai-optics.com/asse...pe-objectives/

https://www.shanghai-optics.com/asse...00x-objective/

https://www.shanghai-optics.com/abou...e-engineering/

Pere - the same companies like the huge one in Xian, China that I just described are capable of making many different levels of quality. The links you provide do not answer the given question specifically. And when I state that I'd want to do some homework before dropping money on a lens, it doesn't mean a few minutes of web surfing. As far as China embracing LF, it's been there all along. Among the international tourists I encounter both in this area on the coast and inland, the Chinese are the most likely to be familiar with the specific equipment they see me using. Some of them are very wealthy; and they are in this game, they're probably not buying Chinese gear themselves. I ran into one earlier this year in a parking lot at Pt Reyes. Unlike most, he spoke no English, except for, "Sinar?" while giving me a thumbs up.

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Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

The links you provide do not answer the given question specifically.

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Drew, I know some people that dealed with that particular company.

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Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

he spoke no English, except for, "Sinar?" while giving me a thumbs up.

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Their headquaters in the USA are in NJ, Midwest office is in CO, and Westcoast office is in Milpitas, CA
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/about-us/contact-us/

Pere, I start to wonder what your commission is...:)

I have no doubt that the Chinese optical industry can produce first-class lenses if they choose. But equally, no doubt they want to make a profit. The market for ULF film camera lenses has to be tiny- see Schneider's efforts from a few years back. Where's the (potential) profit here?
Perhaps this lens is a design re-purposed from a different project. Or a vanity production by a very profitable company? Perhaps some brave soul on this forum will buy one, try it out, and post their results.

Well then, that's a good start. It can be a nightmare placing contracts with Chinese manufacturers, though Indian ones are worse; their websites promise anything, but more often than not, one has to repeatedly travel to China in person to iron out misunderstandings, and even to locate a source that doesn't automatically default to bait and switch quality. But merely having a sales office in our area is no guarantee either. We're at the epicenter of industrial espionage! - or in a positive sense, companies try to get a legitimate foothold here even though they still have relatively little to offer. They're seeking financing from local venture capitalists. Horrible products often have rather slick professional marketing superstructure in this country, in many cases, sales companies that represent many different brands, who might or might not know specifics. No different than going to a big trade show. Even when camera and darkroom companies did that about once a year in this area, five out of six representatives at the booths were idiots that sold washing machines the previous month, used cars before that, soup can labels before that.... Then you'd get lucky and track down the guy who actually knew his products. It's a lot of work, sometimes. Fortunately, I'm not shopping for this kind of lens, since I already have some. The other wild card is the amount of markup that goes to distributorship, and then again potentially to retail. For instance, the division of Nikon that handled survey optics demanded a ridiculously high margin of profit at the US level, and therefore sold almost nothing. Cameras and lenses were independent of that branch of importing and did quite well, but at lower margins of profit. And fierce competition among multiple dealers kept retail prices within range. So the asking price doesn't necessarily reflect realistic differences in manufacturing cost. Just like the Japanese decades ago, the quality of Chinese goods might gradually increase. Their metallurgy is still substandard. The shutter on that lens says, Made in Japan, so is presumably a
real Copal. But I don't take anything for granted. Companies like Fuji have earned their reputation. When a new player is in town, or in town only briefly, best to ask as many questions as possible. Take care.

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Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

Their metallurgy is still substandard.

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Drew, they have all quality levels, from optimal cost to aerospace grade performance. Still (IMHO) they are focused in the market segments allowing the greatest market growth.

But about the Rinpoche, of course it's soon to say what it is, just telling my opinion that it has the potential to be fine lens, we'll see...

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Originally Posted by Mark Sampson

Where's the (potential) profit here?

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Optical glass has a minimum cost of some $15 per lb, a good design may be able to avoid any raw glass over $75 per lb... so the profit would be related in having costs for an small scale production that are not that far from those for large runs.

IMHO with that project they are to learn. They are engaging in a market that has been abandoned by the well stablished manufacturers... they have no competition and they can focus in some niches, but may be this will prepare them for MF glasses for digital backs, or to compete in the Machine Vision market aganist Linos/Rodenstock and Japan equivalents. They don't do stupid things, if they do that then a profit may be there, soon or late.

Just speculating...