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Interesting! Thanks for running this experiment! What film did you use? And did you use a glass plate on the bottom of the tray? When I do this, the film sticks to the glass plate and I think the developer wears out except near the edges where it is replenished as a result of agitation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Noel
Agitation is performed by lifting 3 sides of the tray for each cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by salvatore
My times will probably not suit you as my negatives are designed to make salt prints. 4-5 minutes at 75 deg.F gives the the DR I need. If I was going to print on silver gelatin paper or cyanptype or lakitype i would dilute even further.
I see no need for holders, or glass in the bottom of the tray. Careful handling at all stages eliminates scratches. When I learned to develop film in the 1930's all films had very soft emulsions so proper handling was a must.
If you use the plastic developing trays made these days they have grooves in them, the developer tends to flow faster down these grooves when agitation is initiated, causing uneven development. Also the trays have bumps in them from the moulds, so a protective sheet has been necessary to stop scratching of xray film. I put a sheet of cleaned xray film down over the imperfections and only occasionally find scratches.
Yeah, I think it depends on the tray you use. Mine have little bumps which are remnants of the injection molding process. There's one right in the middle of each of my flat-bottomed trays and it scratches the emulsion badly if I don't put glass over it. My agitation scheme is similar to Jim's and I use double sided film. With film such as ektascan br/a flipping the film shouldn't be necessary.
the best trays I have used are the plastic food storage trays you can buy at the dollar store, they are about 5 dollars a piece, when I shoot single emulsion x ray film I just use the btzs tubes.
Developing with the trays is something I particularly enjoy. Its quite therapeutic, gently rocking the tray waiting for that image to appear and then deciding in the faint red glow if its time to halt development or wait just a little bit longer to find that little bit more detail. When I flip the green film it always seems to have a lot more on one side than the other, on the half speed blue both sides seem to have the same amount of detail.
So, I got my first flash ever this week. It’s a studio flash that can put out f32 at 1 meter with a softbox attached.
I wanted to try it out and was pretty puzzled that my Sekonic readings for the relative power of the flash and my big continuous fluorescent lightbox did not seem to match at all.
Of course I did the tests with cheap Fuji x-ray film to start with and where I had equal power from two sides the flash side just didn’t register. It seemed to be something like 1.5 stops under.
So today, I did a 2x2 test matrix with Foma 100 and Fuji HR-E 30 with equal power and then 3:1 power according to my light meter. I rated the Fuji at EI 25 from my earlier stuff.
http://i.imgur.com/HzdU6gD.png
What was completely new to me that apparently there is reciprocity failure also at extremely short exposures? The flash barely shows on the x-ray film. Is this an effect of my rating it at EI 25? Is is off perhaps?
What is the color temp of the new strobe? Perhaps it's too warm for the x-ray film.
No, I think it’s pretty cold. 5600K. My tubes are also 5500K.
My rotary cutter makes a very clean cut on film/paper. Meopta brand -common in Europe, probably unknown in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by salvatore
Much cheaper than the Rototrim,but similar design.
The difference,at least with my design,is that the cutting head compresses the leading edge just before the wheel cuts.
On a guillotine, the cutting action on the blade tends to skew the medium. For heavy card to thin paper,works fine.
For films-rotary almost essential imho.
I have a rotary cutter for paper but was unable to use it for cutting a roll of aerographic film as it would have to be threaded from the wrong end under the plastic compression thing after every cut. A nightmare with floppy aero film. So I had to get a guillotine cutter for that, clearance on trademe about $30, it has a neat little arm that descends ahead of the blade and which holds the film still. If you use a rotary cutter its a good idea to tape a sheet of office paper around the plastic holder/compression thing to minimise potential scratching and to ease the paper in and out as it will hold the film down on the useable area.
Or, could this be an effect of the double-sided emulsion?Quote:
Originally Posted by towolf
I stripped the rear now and seems to look much more balanced:
http://i.imgur.com/rjzmZaQ.gif
Could the continuous light penetrate the base better and shine through to the other side, but the flash doesn’t?
This is front and rear respectively:
http://i.imgur.com/uBRJ31n.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/vwXZR6C.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by salvatore
On my Premier Brand guillotine cutter, the gap, blade to cutting edge, can be adjusted. There is a nut that sets the spring tension to decrease the gap. Also, I use a drafting triangle placed over the paper / film to hold it tight. Seems to work for me.....
Yes there is reciprocity departure when using extremely short exposures, but I doubt your flash durations are short enough to cause a problem. This occurs at 1/10,000 -1/5,000 second with most filmsQuote:
Originally Posted by towolf
There seem to be three things it could be:
a) The flash output varies,
b) The settings were wrong,
c) The spectral output of the flash is not ideal for the x-ray film.
If it's an older strobe, has it sat unused for awhile? You may want to follow the manufacturer's suggestions for reforming the capacitors.
Take a number of readings over the space of a few minutes. Don't overhead the flash, and make sure to give plenty of time to recharge. Are they consistent?
If the spectral output is off, which seems unlikely, you might have to determine an EI for flash separately from your other sources.
I don’t think so, we tested Film A, Film B, Film A, Film B. We didn’t touch the flash in all this, we only changed shutter speed from 1/2 to 1/6 to unbalance the ratio between flash and hotlight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J. De Smidt
I don’t think so, we designed the 2x2 experiment specifically to test film-vs-film and time-vs-timeQuote:
b) The settings were wrong,
http://i.imgur.com/LNJCxjs.png
It’s this one here. According to manufacturer it’s 5600 K.Quote:
c) The spectral output of the flash is not ideal for the x-ray film.
The guy said, he used it 2-3 times only. But it’s not super old.Quote:
If it's an older strobe, has it sat unused for awhile? You may want to follow the manufacturer's suggestions for reforming the capacitors.
I’m doing some repeated pops into the light-meter, and they are all bang-on f22. Will continue this.Quote:
Take a number of readings over the space of a few minutes. Don't overhead the flash, and make sure to give plenty of time to recharge. Are they consistent?
If the spectral output is off, which seems unlikely, you might have to determine an EI for flash separately from your other sources.
Right now it must be compensated by roughly 1.5 stops. I can’t really believe it’s spectral. Why is everyone discounting the reciprocity failure theory?
Because your flash duration will not be short enough for reciprocity failure.
Constant, gentle agitation for the first 30 seconds, followed by 5 seconds gentle agitation every minute. Agitation is north/south, east/west. Or if you're in Australia or New Zealand, south/north, west/east....;)Quote:
When you use a flat bottomed tray for double sided film do you oscillate the tray during development? And if not, how does it develope in the side in contact with the glass?
As Andrew says gentle agitation south north, west east. With my old film holders there's always a bit of a black line from light leakage, so I grab it in that wasted area and flip it over so both sides get the same amount of developer flow.
Attachment 141223
River Elbe Radebeul/Saxony
Pinhole f400 x-ray film 1:50 Rodinal
Very nice image! Very pinholey......Quote:
Originally Posted by GF1973
I asked FPP about "stand" development with x-ray film, and this was their answer:Obviously, Ektascan may not be as troublesome being single-emulsion. I'd be interested to hear who has done stand development with x-ray film, especially using the 'taco' method, and especially with pyrocat. What dilution did you use? Development time? Did you control the temperature, or just trust that the longer development would even things out?Quote:
Hi Chris,
Mat Marrash here from the Film Photography Project. My apologies for the delayed reply, this message got lost in the shuffle of all other things FPP.
In answer to your question about stand/semi-stand development, x-ray film doesn't respond well to full stand development like traditional panchromatic and other modern, orthochromatic films. I believe a big reason for that is the double sided emulsion present on the film, which increases the chances for bromide drag two-fold. In working with both blue and blue/green x-ray films with diluted Pyrocat HD, I've found that any more than two minutes between agitations will result in streaking/drag, meaning even semi-stand is out of the question. Another potential complication is the very short average developing time of these films. The longest I've been able to extend development on these films to is 16 minutes, but this is using an incredibly weak amount of Pyrocat HD that oxidizes and exhausts quickly.
For the best consistency, I recommend standard agitation of x-ray films. If you're looking to control contrast, simply develop the film by inspection under a weak red safelight, and pull the film into a cold water bath if the highlights start emerging before two minutes in the developer.
Hope this helps, and if you have any other x-ray film related questions, please feel free to ask.
-Mat M.
A second area I'm unsure of relates to my (proposed) makeshift darkroom, which will be my bathroom. I covered the window with blackout cloth (held in place with gaffer tape). Closed all shades & curtains in the house, then closed hallway doors to block any remaining light from adjacent rooms. After closing bath door & waiting for eyes to adjust, I can barely make out some light leaking around the door frame, as well as some light coming through the blackout cloth. Is this enough to fog Ektascan when I trim it with the paper cutter (working under 7.5 watt red safelight)? Do I need to tape up the door frame & double my cloth thickness before proceeding? Thanks!
My darkroom situation is similar (in the sense that I can just make out some light leaking past the door), and it doesn't cause fog that I can actually detect with my eyes. There's bound to be some, but it's not an issue.
Good to hear. I'm going to try to minimize exposure by keeping the shower curtain behind me as I work over the tub & immediately putting trimmed film in a clean box. Using the Yankee tank should also minimize exposure during developing.Quote:
Originally Posted by koraks
I develop by sight, so the film I use is generally exposed for about 7 minutes to the safelight and whatever stray light peeps into the room. If I cut to 4x5 it's probably about 11 minutes, but I haven't shot much LF lately and only 8x10 at that.
Hello All,
New to this Forum, but not to LF photography. I've been shooting 4x5 and 8x10 for nearly 40 years now. I never thought about shooting x-ray film, but with the price of 8x10 HP5+ I thought I'd give it a go. However, I visited the csxonline.com site and it seems that the only size they sell is 14x17? The Film Photography Project sells a 25 sheet box for $40, but based on reading this thread it seems like I ought to be able to get 100 sheets for around that price. For any of you shooting the 8x10 size, where do you buy your film?
Thanks!
Csxonline does sell 8x10, you just have to drill down a bit by selecting a film then clicking more info.
Also try zzmedical they sell the 8x10 single sided film mentioned in previous posts for $80 per 100 sheets.
Hello Martin,
Thanks! Didn't realize I had to click the "More Info" button to see all the sizes. I see that CXS has "CXS Ortho Green Film by Agfa" and "CXS Green Latitude Film by Agfa". I'd like to try the green sensitive emulsion first, but which one? Or, does it not matter?
Thanks!
Can't help with a specific recommendation I am afraid as I have not tried any yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan9940
I just bought some of the single sided film from zzmedical but have yet to try it.
This thread is quite lengthy but there is some great info in it and I am sure other members will help you with a choice.
Latitude film is designed to have the lesser contrast of the two films Alan9940 mentioned. In x-ray terminology, "ortho" means green-sensitive, as opposed to "regular" which is blue-sensitive. The film is exposed indirectly via the (green or blue) phosphorescence of the intesifying screens of the film holders rather than directly via x-rays to reduce radiation exposure to the patient. The specteral response of the film affects the tonality of the image in rendering certain colors into monochrome tones.
R.
I exclusively stand develop Kodak CSG (dual sided) in Rodinal 1:100 for 4.5 minutes using the MOD54 in a Patterson tank. I have never noticed bromide drag. The MOD54 does make little scratches on one side of the emulsion at the edges where it contacts the film. A little more care on my part might mitigate that. That doesn't directly address your question, but maybe adds a little info to the knowledge base.Quote:
Originally Posted by seezee
I tried double sided x-ray in the mod54 once. Never again. The lugs of the mod holder leave an impression on the film and due to its design,they're about half an inch into the image frame. The developer doesn't seem to soak into the part of the film that's touched by the lugs and it's really difficult to get the film out without scratching it in addition. In addition, I can't do 8x10 in the mod54 so I gave up on it for this purpose.
As Martin noted, ZZMedical is the other online source for x-ray film. I find their prices are lower and the selection better than their competitors. Page back thru this thread for suggestions on trimming the film for 4×5, and consider using the single-sided film as your entry to x-ray film (to avoid the many complications of double-sided emulsion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan9940
I plan to trim & load some Ektascan tonight & will report back with my results once I have developed a few test exposures (package with Rapid Fix should arrive from B&H soon).
UPDATE: it's been raining all afternoon in central Oklahoma, so I took advantage of the cloudy light to trim and load 3 sheets (12 exposures) of Ektaskan. Following Martin's suggestion, I marked the paper trimmer with Dyno tape — that streamlined the process considerably. By the time I got to the second sheet I felt like I was on autopilot.Quote:
Me too.
I use Dyno label tape, 2 pieces on top of each other give enough feel to use as a guide.
I have a cheap rotary cutter marked out for 4x5 and 3 1/4 x 4 1/4.
I just ordered a box of that Carestream 8x10 B/RA film to give it a go.
I wore powderless nitrile gloves to avoid fingerprints & took out only 1 sheet of film at a time to minimize exposure to ambient + red light. Loaded each sheet after trimming, before going on to the next. I worked on the floor below the pedestal sink to block some of the light from the safe light. In the interest of avoiding grit and dirt, I used a large porcelain serving tray to place the trimmed film in, and put an old pillowcase on the floor under the trimmer to catch the cutoffs.
Hope to have some exposure tests next weekend, after the final chemicals & supplies are delivered.
Thank you to everyone that responded to my post. After reading through this entire thread (whew! Lots of good info, though) and finding a couple of reviews on the 'net, I just ordered a box of Kodak Ektascan B/RA from zzmedical. Even though it's a bit more expensive than the "green latitude" film I think, and as others have pointed out, that it's probably the best entry into using this type of film. Also, based on Jim F's strong recommendation to use holders that's how I'm starting out. Holders or trays may not be as critical a decision for this single-sided film, but it seems a good way to start. Now that the cooler weather is finally starting to hit in the desert southwest, I'm really excited to get out with my 8x10 and shoot some film!
Please reply with your details (exposure details, developing method) and post examples images when you get to it. The more info we get on this thread, the easier we make it for future photographers. Best luck on your pictures!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan9940
Quick warning:
Even red LEDs can for film and paper we think is red blind.
I thought since the high intensity LEDs in a bike tail light were red and had a red plastic cover, I would be safe.
NO
Turns out that they emit an appreciable amount of yellow and green when you use a CD as a diffraction grating. These LEDs are way bright---they are a bike safety device--- and from 30" it doesn't take long to fog film or paper. I proved this a couple hours ago making photograms of 35mm stainless film reels on both printing paper and Ektascan B/RA.
Perhaps it is safe to use this light from a distance, but maybe not. This is at least the second time I've been tripped up by in-safe lights!
My dad said the value of experienced is that it enables you to recognize your mistakes when you make them again.
Thanks for confirming what I also found out a couple of weeks ago! Filtering the red light with some rubylith solved it for me. It's comforting to know I at least haven't gone entirely crazy and other people run into the same problem ;)
For what it's worth, Randy Moe recommended this bulb for x-ray film, and I've been very pleased with it. I cut and develop with it and haven't had a bit of fogging. I keep it reasonably far away, of course--usually around 4 - 5 feet or so.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/more...60-degree/440/
For that price, it's worth just buying it rather than trying to cobble something together that doesn't really work.
Stone Butter Church, Vancouver Island. Ektascan. Pyrocat-HD.
I wish I could get contrast like that, always seem to turn out very flat. Great pic!
Andrew, did you use any filters or anything? I'm going to pick up my box of Ektascan on Tuesday and can't wait to get using it.
Need a little help from the knowledge base here...
Per recommendations throughout this thread, I bought several 8x10 hangers for developing the Ektascan when I get it but I'm having a hard time finding suitable containers to hold the processing chemicals. I went to 3 different stores today, including the Container Store, and couldn't find anything that would work. Sure, there are large containers that would easily hold the hangers, but I'm looking at 4 - 6 gals of chemistry per! Throughout this thread I've seen mention of food storage containers, etc. If anyone has any specific make/part# or online links to something appropriate, I would very much appreciate it.
Thank you!
Thanks, andrewch59
Kevin, yes I used a wratten #11 (light green). Sorry for not mentioning that.
Alan9940, I made a tank myself with 1/4 inch plexi. I gave up on hangers when I realized that I could get better results in flat-bottomed trays, especially with double-sided x-ray film. With Ektascan, it's trays or BTZS tubes. Much less chemistry required. If I anticipate stand/semi stand development, I use tank and hanger. Be very, very gentle when using hangers. That's the secret.
Thanks, Andrew!
... :)
Thanks for that link, I ordered some, and sorry for the slightly incoherent message. The bike safety light is quite bright and directional. There's the temptation to use like a flashlight. If I keep it far enough away from things I can print and cut w/o fogging. I looked back through some older negatives and prints. And, I printed some developed in the dark pan film negs as contact prints tonight and they came out fine. I expect to be setting up a new darkroom space by the new year and these bulbs spaced around the room ought to be dim enough to avoid fogging but also not have inky dark spots around the room.
Followup...
Duh, I guess it would have been helpful to mention the size film I'll be processing: 8x10.
Andrew - yeah, I figured I'd try both methods--hangers and trays. I assume with the "tray method" that you process 1 sheet at a time? That would make sense, especially with double-sided film. That seems to be the one drawback to processing in trays; can only process a single sheet at a time. I used to process regular 8x10 film in trays via the shuffle method, but found I got uneven development. In the mid-1990's I bought a Jobo and have been using that for sheet film ever since. I suppose I could process the Ektascan in the Jobo since it's single-sided, but I've just started playing around with DBI. Anyway, I'll probably wind up making a few tanks myself.
Thanks, again!
If you keep an eye out you may be able to find some one gallon stainless steel tanks. I use them for my 8 x 10 negatives. So far all of my ULF work is in trays one at a time. Lately I've been using my Efke 25 on a recent trip but I do have some X-ray film waiting for me. I should get to it today and post some prints soon.
I use three of Vinny's tanks. Each holds 6 hangers, and 5 quarts of developer. You can find his posts here, or http://www.vinnywalsh.com/#!products/c2jd
Part of the trick with hangers is to only use Kodak hangers--they don't touch the face of the film around the edge, where others will stick right to about 5mm of margin. And minimal agitation.