Re: I think I am in love...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay De Fehr
John,
I don't know which Pyrocat you're using, but Pat Gainer's Pyrocat MC makes Pyrocat HD completely obsolete. If you haven't tried that version, you're in for a pleasant surprise. I don't know why anyone would continue to use Pyrocat HD.
Jay
If you find personally satisfactory results with any developer why change? Xtol has been praised for years because of what people see in the prints that eminate from their negatives developed with it. If I was printing silver I would be using it as well.
Ditto with Pyrocat HD. We use it in massive quantities because it just works like a champ each and every time and has been very effectively supported with an articulate well written article that both educates and informs. Change for the sake of change is like chasing your tail. Instead of making photographs you are continually looking for the holy grail which not only confuses you, it is a proven waste of one of your most valuable resources as a LF photographer - the time you have to photograph.
Onward!
Re: I think I am in love...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Kadillak
If you find personally satisfactory results with any developer why change? Xtol has been praised for years because of what people see in the prints that eminate from their negatives developed with it. If I was printing silver I would be using it as well.
Ditto with Pyrocat HD. We use it in massive quantities because it just works like a champ each and every time and has been very effectively supported with an articulate well written article that both educates and informs. Change for the sake of change is like chasing your tail. Instead of making photographs you are continually looking for the holy grail which not only confuses you, it is a proven waste of one of your most valuable resources as a LF photographer - the time you have to photograph.
Onward!
Hi Michael,
Wow, I wondered how long the Medusa creature would hide the ugly heads.
For a complete story of the development of Pyrocat-HD to Pyrocat-M to Pyrocat-MC have a look at this thread on APUG, http://www.apug.org/forums/showthrea...ight=Pyrocat-M.
See especially what Pat Gainer says about the collaboration that led from Pyrocat-HD to Pyrocat-M to Pyrocat-MC. But don't forget about Pyrocat-P because it is really good!
The bottom line is that Pyrocat-MC resulted from a collaboration between Pat Gainer and myself, and I have already (see the APUG thread) cleary recognized Pat's contribibutions in this collaborative work, for which I am personally very grateful.
Sandy
Re: I think I am in love...
Gosh who would have thought Jay would not have all the info? I am a HD user and I see no reason to change.
lee\c
Re: I think I am in love...
I have all the info, Lee. Pat was being generous in crediting Sandy and the original Pyrocat HD formula as the basis for his version, which is much better. Sandy has taken full credit for the formula, and Pat's name is not even mentioned in the Photographers Formulary description. Pyrocat MC is more similar to the original Hypercat formula than it is to the original Pyrocat HD formula, but it is an improvement over the original Hypercat as well. I never liked including phenidone in a catechol developer, and have since eliminated it from the latest version, along with most of the ascorbic acid and the restrainer, and a new alkali. This new version works better than the original, so I no longer use the original version. It just makes sense to me that when an improved version of a developer I use becomes available, that I stop using the obsolete version. It doesn't surprise me at all that you're determined to stick with an inferior developer rather than move on to a superior one. It's a typically conservative mindset. Enjoy your HD.
Jay
Re: I think I am in love...
For a complete story of the development of Pyrocat-HD to Pyrocat-M to Pyrocat-MC have a look at this thread on APUG, http://www.apug.org/forums/showthrea...ight=Pyrocat-M.
And remember, people lie and distort. Facts are facts.
Sandy
Re: I think I am in love...
It looks as if the Formulary just copied the description from Pyrocat HD and used it for Pyrocat MC. Is this correct? I think that this is probably their error, as I am sure that Mr. King and Mr. Gainer know that MC is different. For example, one or both (I can't remember which) have stated that MC has less base fog, and is sharper. If I am not mistaken, either or both of them have stated that the phenidone version gives a bit more film speed. The Formulary is doing the new formula a disservice by merely copying the description of the HD formula for the MC as well.
Re: I think I am in love...
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Karp
It looks as if the Formulary just copied the description from Pyrocat HD and used it for Pyrocat MC. Is this correct? I think that this is probably their error, as I am sure that Mr. King and Mr. Gainer know that MC is different. For example, one or both (I can't remember which) have stated that MC has less base fog, and is sharper. If I am not mistaken, either or both of them have stated that the phenidone version gives a bit more film speed. The Formulary is doing the new formula a disservice by merely copying the description of the HD formula for the MC as well.
Hi David,
Please send me a copy of the description to which you refer. I would like to clear up any differences with PF.
Sandy.
Re: I think I am in love...
Sure Sandy, here they are, straight from the Formulary website:
The description for Pyrocat HD Liquid 10:
PYROCAT-HD FILM DEVELOPER-Pyrocat HD is a high acutance developer, formulated by Sandy King as an alternative to other pyrogallol based staining developers. The advantages over PMK that Mr. King cites for his formula include an approximately 1/3 stop greater effective film speed, 10-15% shorter development times, more consistent staining action, lower toxicity, and no streaking or mottling with reduced agitation. Makes 10 liters of working solution.
The description for Pyrocat HD in Glycol 10:
PYROCAT-HD FILM DEVELOPER-Pyrocat HD is a high acutance developer, formulated by Sandy King as an alternative to other pyrogallol based staining developers. The advantages over PMK that Mr. King cites for his formula include an approximately 1/3 stop greater effective film speed, 10-15% shorter development times, more consistent staining action, lower toxicity, and no streaking or mottling with reduced agitation. Makes 10 liters of working solution.
The description for Pyrocat MC in Glycol 10:
PYROCAT-MC FILM DEVELOPER-Pyrocat MC is a high acutance developer, formulated by Sandy King as an alternative to other pyrogallol based staining developers. The advantages over PMK that Mr. King cites for his formula include an approximately 1/3 stop greater effective film speed, 10-15% shorter development times, more consistent staining action, lower toxicity, and no streaking or mottling with reduced agitation. Makes 10 liters of working solution.
The descriptions are all the same. Even if these statements are accurate, it would be good for them to explain the differences. For example, why someone would be interested in one of the glycol formulations, or the differences they might expect from having used HD vs. MC.
Re: I think I am in love...
Hi David,
I think we are involved here with a copy system gone wild.
Will try to clean this up with PF soon.
Thanks,
Sandy
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Karp
Sure Sandy, here they are, straight from the Formulary website:
The description for Pyrocat HD Liquid 10:
PYROCAT-HD FILM DEVELOPER-Pyrocat HD is a high acutance developer, formulated by Sandy King as an alternative to other pyrogallol based staining developers. The advantages over PMK that Mr. King cites for his formula include an approximately 1/3 stop greater effective film speed, 10-15% shorter development times, more consistent staining action, lower toxicity, and no streaking or mottling with reduced agitation. Makes 10 liters of working solution.
The description for Pyrocat HD in Glycol 10:
PYROCAT-HD FILM DEVELOPER-Pyrocat HD is a high acutance developer, formulated by Sandy King as an alternative to other pyrogallol based staining developers. The advantages over PMK that Mr. King cites for his formula include an approximately 1/3 stop greater effective film speed, 10-15% shorter development times, more consistent staining action, lower toxicity, and no streaking or mottling with reduced agitation. Makes 10 liters of working solution.
The description for Pyrocat MC in Glycol 10:
PYROCAT-MC FILM DEVELOPER-Pyrocat MC is a high acutance developer, formulated by Sandy King as an alternative to other pyrogallol based staining developers. The advantages over PMK that Mr. King cites for his formula include an approximately 1/3 stop greater effective film speed, 10-15% shorter development times, more consistent staining action, lower toxicity, and no streaking or mottling with reduced agitation. Makes 10 liters of working solution.
The descriptions are all the same. Even if these statements are accurate, it would be good for them to explain the differences. For example, why someone would be interested in one of the glycol formulations, or the differences they might expect from having used HD vs. MC.
Re: I think I am in love...
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Karp
If I am not mistaken, either or both of them have stated that the phenidone version gives a bit more film speed.
In the interest of fairness, I want to correct the above, which is a misstatement. After reviewing the APUG thread posted by Sandy, I found this statement by him:
"I agree with Tom in that the -MC gives slightly higher effective film speed."
Also, in fairness to Sandy, here are some quotes from that same thread. By Sandy King:
"I am grateful to Pat for posting working directions for Pyrocat-MC. The formula is a a result of both Pat's work and ideas, and mine, so think of this as the Gainer/King Pyrocat. It is really a very nice developer, especially for folks looking for low B+F, very high stain, and very high accutance.
And best of all, it is free for the taking."
And prior to that he said:
"Pat Gainer has provided me with some data that may lead to yet another formula, Pyrocat-MC, which contains pyrocatechin + metol + a tiny bit of ascorbic, and no sulfite. I like it a lot, but it must be mixed in glycol and the method of mixing metol in glycol is a bit beyond the scope of most casual users so this may be something better sold in kit form."
Here is a quote by Patrick Gainer:
"I didn't really want to spill the beans until Sandy mentioned it because it was his impetus and original work that built the platform. I think if you give it a try, you will find it was worth the effort."
It seems as if each is happy to credit the other.