Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

Not quite finished yet!

A longer read of the booklet reveals that the data about the company's production of photographic lenses is a bit thinner than some of the other major makers. There are plenty of illustrations but not so much supporting text. I suppose this is due to their early demise and shortage of different catalogues. I think the serial number/dates could be wrong by a couple of years around 1855.

The cup insert diaphragm system was in use before serial numbers were adopted. The example shown on page 234 of d'Agostini's book is without serial numbers but has a complete insert cup shown. D'Agostini talks about both lens barrel inserts and hood inserts.

I reproduce the tables of sizes for the 15" Petzval, so you can find yours! Note that Lerebours made three speeds for each basic lens diameter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

Not quite finished yet!

A longer read of the booklet reveals that the data about the company's production of photographic lenses is a bit thinner than some of the other major makers. There are plenty of illustrations but not so much supporting text. I suppose this is due to their early demise and shortage of different catalogues. I think the serial number/dates could be wrong by a couple of years around 1855.

The cup insert diaphragm system was in use before serial numbers were adopted. The example shown on page 234 of d'Agostini's book is without serial numbers but has a complete insert cup shown. D'Agostini talks about both lens barrel inserts and hood inserts.

I reproduce the tables of sizes for the 15" Petzval, so you can find yours! Note that Lerebours made three speeds for each basic lens diameter.

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I think this diaphragm system is really early, it starts around 1843/early 1844.
It is an improvement introduced shortly after starting to produce Petzval lenses. Lerebours, quickly understood the need to control exposure times more accurately with this portrait lenses.

Have Lerebours et Secretan with FL 7 inches +/- with three lens all have matching sn 8941 as does the barrel. It also has the “washer” stop. it also has the metal lens cap. Any idea when this lens was made?

went back and reviewed the earlier posts and it appears my lens was made after 1855, but before 1860 since it uses the "washer" system.

You have the complete aperture cup assembley, and it it survived conversion to Waterhouse slot - not that common!

You also have the highest serial number with lens scratching (so far!). Nearer 1855 than 1860, I think.

I have a nice 300mm Lerebours but it vignettes a little at infinity on 8x10. I think it's the lens hood that is the problem. On mine it doesn't seem to want to screw off, any ideas how to get it free? Cheers, John

The range around 1853 was as follows.

Lens diameter 81mm

- 20cm 1/2 plate
-27cm. 16x22cm

Lens diameter 110mm

-30cm 16x22cm
-37cm. 16x22cm

Between 1855 and 1865 there were some additions:

Lens diameter 95mm

- 25cm 18x24cm
- 30cm 18x24cm

I don't think it is the lens hood, 30cm Petzval is generally considered as a full plate lens.

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Thanks for the info Steven. Seems like it is not the hood then. Cheers.

Thank you Steven. I appreciate the benefit of your research. This one and my many Derory lens are some of my favorite.

I have been into this before on other threads but I think it has relevance here.

I have read that Lerebours was plagued by counterfeit lenses - wish I could remember where! But I have never seen any. There were three lenses with apart engravings last year with the same retailer name added. My conclusion was eventually that these must have done by special arrangement with Lerebours as anything else matched with genuine lenses.

So if there were no typical forgeries, why did Lerebours complain about counterfeits?
I think the answer is Vallantin. He started an independent production of lenses after having being employed at Lerebours from 1840 to 1856. He had the nerve to engrave his brass sleeves with this information and with "Lerebours" written in rather large script. As Vallantin was making the same range of Petzvals and Meniscus lenses as Lerebours, this would probably have been considered by Lerebours as an gross affront. This was made worse by a man called Colas living in London and making sliding box cameras importing Vallantin lenses (with ink lens edge identification) and engraving them "Colas eleve de Lerebours, Paris" - so a "Lerebours" twice removed. It looks like Vallantin gave up engraving his lenses for a 'time" - under pressure from the powerful Lerebours, perhaps? - and then went over to plain "Vallantin".

How is this relevant here? Well, I would suggest that the date of Vallantin leaving Lerebours in 1856 and the start of his provocative engraving ( 1856 or 1857) was the reason for Lerebours's anger and resulted in his extreme decision to serial mark all his component lenses. So lens scratching starts in 1856/7 and probably ends when Vallentin falls into line.

By the way, as this knowledge of lens marking has been lost for over a century, I suggest we call these lens marks "Garrett marks" after the OP!

Later: It appears that lens scratching marks existed well before Vallantin's departure from Lerebours, as there is a very early engraved serial number (2113) which has these marks. The present date for the start of serial numbers is 1845 with a probable start at a very low 20xx!

Another lens scratched number from Lerebours et Secretan. 6582. It looks as though it is just a single surface edge that is marked. But I'll check later to see if there are others behind the dirt/mount. This one has Waterhouse stops installed. Done well, but a different style from an obvious ex-maker one I have which is a few years later 8648.

And then there is the other L & S Petzval I got to-day! This is as early as serial no. 2113. This has lens engraving too. It is only on the inside lens surface of both cells, so is not nearly as apparent as the later outside surface markings. This pushes the start of Lerebours concerns back to 1846 or 1845.

Unless anyone objects strongly, I would like to start a running lerebours et secretan serial number list here as the thread title seems very appropriate. I'll start with the P et P listing which mention all the types made in the 1840s and 50s and gives them a reference number. Then their serial number dating periods. Finally we can add the lenses we know and include details of lens scratching, if present.

This an attempt to put some order into known Lerebours et Secretan lenses in terms of consecutive serial numbers and (hopefully) some dates. Confirmed foreign agent sales (just J.F.Shew of London at the moment) will also included when there is a serial number.

This is the current most reliable allocation of serial numbers to dates. The start at 2,000 looks realistic and the production (Under different names) before 1845 could have been around 2,000.

1839 - 1845. no serial numbers
1845. - 1850. 2000 to 5000
1850 - 1855. 5000 to 8000
1855. - 1860. 8000 to 11000
1860 - 1865. 11000 to 12900

Lowest number reported by them (Pont et Princelle) is 2012 and highest is 12609! So total production is around 10,000 lenses with serial numbers.

Sources include lenses mentioned in this thread, auction records, own lenses, Corrado's book and the lenses illustrated in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Lenses without descriptions are Petzvals. SRC means lens scratching identified! Cup means the presence (or evidence) of the insert washer stop system.

1845
XXXXno serial number. ordinary Petzval - late WHS but full engraving retained. Antiq photo paris.
2012 mentioned by P et P - but not shown
2046 Mounted achromat from 81mm Petzval. SRC first example?
2113 1/2 plate size SRC
2125. Complex lid landscape
2140. cup landscape (variant type)
2200. 1/2 plate andrew plume info
2323. verre combine design cup
2467. 1/2 plate size without WHS conversion. Original cup insert .Double scratched achromat F4.5 220mm.
2482. 1/2 plate size both lenses with SRC.Original cup insert present. No WHS conversion.
2664. 1/2 plate size SRC original cup insert (screw in washer washers) “Lerebours et Secretan” scratched on edge of front achromat.”2564” on lenses - so brass engraving should have been 2562 or?
2708. Complex lid landscape
2722. 1/2 plate without WHS conversion with cup washer set clean. Antiq-photo july 2023
3237 small petzval no WHS
3492. cup
3568. Small Petzval. Cut for WHS. Neglected EBay nov. 2022.
3636
3811.
3830. Cup present no WHS Petzval EBay listing february 2021
4008. cup - later WHS -ebay listing
4093. cup
4229. Cup discarded. Baffle mounted within barrel restricting aperture considerably. Good glass but very weathered brass EBay nov. 2022
4381. small petzval. SCR ( Digits are more separated than later serial numbers and larger - visable on Ebay listing feb 2019
4391. cup (ebay listing)Fabrice
4437 Pill box landscape
4485. 1/2 plate Petzval SCR on at least achromatic, no WHS a conversion EBay June 2023
4655
4664. 1/2 plate Petzval no WHS ( so sold with cup aperture system)
4675 Petzval SPIRA COLLECTION - rear group scratched with 4668
4993 Petzval no WHS (cup aperture lost) antiq-photo paris
5201. 1/1 plate very original 310mm, Achromat with serial number etched both sides. Insert lens hood present.

1850?

5250. 1/2 plate Whs
5334 1/2 plate very complete and original with 3 washer stops/ available January 2021
5389. 1/2 good original condition but cup insert lost. Engraved with importer/retailer name
J.Atkinson Liverpool established 1845. UK Auction 2022. SCR in both cells
5431. Petzval antiq photo paris
5541. cup
5685. petzval SPIRA collection SCR
5697. 1/4 plate(?) cup insert present . Without later WHS modification UK auction february 2022.
5948 Small Petzval SCR present front and rear. Unusual later Waterhouse slot in barrel not sleeve EBay June 2020
*6034. J.F.Shew import ca 90mm 1/4 plate F.3. The earliest London Lerebours.
6047 small petzval 40mm lens SCR
6072 1/2 plate size poor brass but intact with no WHS modification-cup stops lost EBay June 2023.
There is a very big gap here. Considering that we know that Lerebours used alternative sales after this period, I think that perhaps most of these missing numbers were used in a way that has yet to be discovered
*6376. J.F.Shew(engraved JFS) Landscape SCR November 2022 Personal Communication. Poor brass
6422. Pill box landscape
*6425 J.F.Shew import landscape SCR Missing front aperture.
*6431. J.F.Shew import landscape not scratched. Missing drive but with aperture stop.Same brass and size as 6425.
*6477. J.F.Shew import SCR
*6582. Whs. Single surface with SCR. Rear cell splits into two sections. No Lerebours
writing but achromat has clear pencil writing " Bland - Long. 153 Fleet Street
London 61+2". Must be 1855 or earlier as company was short lived
*6628. J.F.Shew SPIRA Collectionstereo pair mounted on sliding box camera
6651. 1/2 plate No WHS slot cup insert gone - ebay august 2018 3 lens surfaces have
SCR
6725 mounted on late sliding box camera 1/4 plate SCR cup insert present not converted to WHS
6821. both sides of the same rear lens have SCR. No WH Slot. 1/4 plate size.
6831. EBay 10/2022 SCR 1/2 plate converted to WHS
6865. large 81mm pill box landscape SCR
6984. small landscape SCR
7007 Small Petzval on sliding box camera.Front cell shows a lot of bare threads and gear box is from a rare later style. EBay offer Dec. 2022.
*7081. J.F.Shew import

7093 Identical landscape with pill box - same as 6426. antik-photo paris.
7442. large 80mm Petzval SCR original cup insert with loose washer and retaining ring lens hood cap No WHS stop ebay october 2019
7492. petzval no added WHS SCR ( both surfaces of same lens) Lens hood/cup insert lost
7456 landscape with pill box. SCR.Complete with added Waterhouse slot/cutout. See here https://apenasimagens.com/en/objecti...s-et-secretan/
7556. large petzval SCR but different numbers 7815 added WHStops.
7696. hood lost
7799. cup & seal intact SCR. Large 16” Petzval - without flange (august 2024).
7815. see serial number 7556
7927. Whs

1855?

8169. 1/4 plate. hood & cup insert present. No WHS. Ebay august 2018.
8247. Pill box landscape
8249. Whs
8323. cup
8454. cup engraved with dealer "john Mawson Newcastle" so it passed through his hands before 1860 as he formed a partnership with Joseph Swan in 1860.*
8473 SCR on all lenses original cup insert no WHS conversion also engraved with "John Mawson Newcastle" 57 mm Petzval
8519. no Whs!
8572. landscape
8648. whs
8813 stereo Petzval SCR
8816. stereo Landscape SCR
8916. cup
8941. cup
9381. 1/2 plate clean SCR no WHS conversion but cup stop gone eBay june 2023
9436. pill box landscape
9442. cup and SCR
9675. landscape cup
9683. Landscape pill box Spanish sale April 2021
9699. 81mm Petzval missing some optics (eBay listing feb. 2020)
9764. pill box landscape
9783. small Petzval SCR
98(37?) pill box landscape ebay risting
10038. WHS modification strange “camera”Secretan stamp antiq-photo Paris october 2022
10127. stereoset landscape cup
10173. 81mm Petzval no cup, SCR (?) or WHS.
10295 Pill box landscape (ebay)
10402. cup
10536. Large pill box Landscape SCR
10717. 1/6 plate pill box eBay Dec 2023 minus focussing drive markant patina!
10855. pill box landscape
10892. Small Petzval with intact cup aperture eBay Jan 2022

1860?

11059. simplified barrel landscape lens antiq photo october 2022
11358. Whs
11569.
11613. small Petzval- adapted to fit NIKON but without WHS Japan ebay
11773. Whs
11779. Whs
12006
12103. Whs
12157 pill box landscape
12309. pill box landscape antiq photo paris
12332. Large pill box landscape - complete eBay dec 2024
12334. pill box landscape
12413. Petzval WHS
12609


I think it is clear from the distribution of serial numbers after about 1850, that Lerebours did not produce very many lenses for a period - at least the brasswork. It looks like he could still produce glass - or had a good stock of lenses. These appear to have "dumped" on the nearest big market - London - which was without the political problems in France. We know about J.F.Shew and Bland & Long, but there are likely others to be discovered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

Unless anyone objects strongly, I would like to start a running lerebours et secretan serial number list here as the thread title seems very appropriate. I'll start with the P et P listing which mention all the types made in the 1840s and 50s and gives them a reference number. Then their serial number dating periods. Finally we can add the lenses we know and include details of lens scratching, if present.

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Adding one of my Sinar board mounted lenses here:

L&S, landscape lens, 360mm, f16, no flange but complete with 2 WHS and cap. Serial #8,247, no glass etchings observed.

I'll get to the yet unmounted smaller Petzvals later.

Cheers,

I used to own s/n 2200 - standard portrait Petzval which would have covered quarter to half plate

Andrew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew Plume

I used to own s/n 2200 - standard portrait Petzval which would have covered quarter to half plate

Andrew

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I would find it difficult not to hang onto a lens from 1846! I have 2113 now and it is going nowhere!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amedeus

Adding one of my Sinar board mounted lenses here:

L&S, landscape lens, 360mm, f16, no flange but complete with 2 WHS and cap. Serial #8,247, no glass etchings observed.

I'll get to the yet unmounted smaller Petzvals later.

Cheers,

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Added.

I am leaning towards the conclusion that the cup front washer system was available (perhaps standard) until their demise around 1863. I have been unable to see a standard system of cutting out the Waterhouse rectangle in the barrel sleeve - even for those made after 1860. Lens scratching started as early as no. 2113 (with an accepted start of production serial numbers at ca. 2001) and there is quite late example on the list! There are six surfaces to check on a Petzval and some have only one or two sides marked.

This, I think, is an interesting development concerning serial number 6582 - which I mentioned in post #61.

This has a very acceptible engraving and the single lens scratch marking matches with the serial number.

I did a strip and clean to-day and was very surprised. There were no edge pencil marks relating to Lerebours. There were some darker areas which suggested that there had been markings early on. On the front achromat, written in an unusually neat script was "Bland - Long. 153 Fleet Street London. 61 +2". This is unlikely to be the name of the name of a repair company as Long left the company around 1856.

In addition there were a couple of anomalies. The rear cell can be split into two halves - each with a mounted lens and the distance ring is permantly mounted. I happen to have the same sized Petzval from Lerebours no.8646. The glass is the same along with the distance between the cells, but barrel is a couple of mms. less in diameter in "Bland Long" version. Similarly, threads are not the same (imperial vs. metric?) and the hood is not so prominent on the "Bland Long". Now Lerebours made good brass, but I have to say that the "Bland Long" has quite superb threads - even after 160 years. I also happen to have a CdeV Bland lens from a bit later in the 1850's and quality and finish is the same as the Bland and Long Lerebours.

Now we already know that J.F.Shew was selling complete Lerebours lenses at the same time (and serial numbers) in London. Perhaps Bland and Long had brass manufacture facilities that could help Lerebours with some extra manufacture and sales during "problems" in France?

So perhaps the scenario is:

Lenses made in France, serial number scratched there. Sent to London. Bland and Long make the brass (deviating slightly from Lerebours traditions!) add the company name. Sleeve engraving added in France. Sold in London?

Acquired a front achromat in cell with hood with serial rice writing of 2064. There's a lot of dark mass evidence writing on edge of the element but nothing that is readable any longer. There's absolutely no separation, so most likely this one has been re-cemented a few times over life. Diameter is 80.7mm, qualifies as an 81mm cell in my book.

The soldered-in barrel was clearly sheared off, I'm assuming the back-end didn't survive ...

Must have been a good size Petzval in the days ;-)

Edit: that would be a very early example of rice writing ????

Cheers,

Very interesting, because....

Within the last week I have had a PM from a very astute and experienced UK member about another 81mm front achromat - in non-Lerebours brass! - with the edge scratched number of 2964.

I have come to the conclusion that edge serial number scratching is not a "prevention of fraud", but more a method of keeping tabs of the glass he ( Lerebours OR Lerebours et Secretan) provided for people who made the brasswork.

Note that these 2000 serial numbers are around 1845/6.

Remember that the achromats used in landscape lenses and the front cell in Petzvals were identical. 81mm was a popular size for Lerebours and most serial numbers in the 2000's are Landscapes - so perhaps the achromat was used in a UK landscape lens around 1846?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

Very interesting, because....

Within the last week I have had a PM from a very astute and experienced UK member about another 81mm front achromat - in non-Lerebours brass! - with the edge scratched number of 2964.

I have come to the conclusion that edge serial number scratching is not a "prevention of fraud", but more a method of keeping tabs of the glass he ( Lerebours OR Lerebours et Secretan) provided for (probably UK based) makers who made the brasswork.

Note that these 2000 serial numbers are around 1845/6.

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We may be talking about the same lens, I'll take a closer look to check if my 0 is your 9 ... ;-)

There were a few manufacturers with 81mm diameter cells ...

Yes, I think so! My opinion was asked and it was given!
81mm and some other sizes were standard across the French makers in the late 40's 50's and 60's. Most of them had worked at another maker first and obviously copied Voigtlander's range early in the 40's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

...I have come to the conclusion that edge serial number scratching is not a "prevention of fraud", but more a method of keeping tabs of the glass he ( Lerebours OR Lerebours et Secretan) provided for (probably UK based) makers who made the brasswork....

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I highly doubt 1840s and 50s French companies of the renoun of Lerebours et Secretan were using UK brass fitters. They, and other French optics makers, had been around a lot longer than most early British lens makers. And you can tell the french brass work from the British.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by goamules

I highly doubt 1840s and 50s French companies of the renoun of Lerebours et Secretan were using UK brass fitters. They, and other French optics makers, had been around a lot longer than most early British lens makers. And you can tell the french brass work from the British.

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We have no disagreements about this! All I am saying is that Lerebours glass has ended up in brass mounts which are quite different from the French traditions of the 1840's and 1850's. There were plenty of UK brass instruments in the UK who, perhaps, didn't have access to experienced glass lens grinders and polishers. It appears there are two periods when Lerebours was a supplier of glass to others. Just after 1845, with serial numbers above 2000. Then mid 1850's, with serial numbers above 6000. The 1840's makers have yet to be identified, but the 1850's group include Shew and Bland.

Where did you get the data about those two periods? Is it documented or published during the period, or just conjecture today? Why do you quote the 4000 and 6000 serial numbers? Is there documentation that Lerebours supplied glass lenses, and were those glass lenses for telescopes, microscopes, or actual photographic lenses?

your quote: "It appears there are two periods when Lerebours was a supplier of glass to others. Just after 1845, with serial numbers above 2000. Then mid 1850's, with serial numbers above 6000. The 1840's makers have yet to be identified, but the 1850's group include Shew and Bland."

I may not be understanding, but it sounds like you are saying "any Lerebours et Secretan above 2000 serial number (to what higher number?) was put into British brass fittings." But that can't be right, or I'd have to have proof. Do you mean, instead, "my hypothesis is some British lens makers used Lerebours brass"...? If so, why confuse the matter with serial numbers, which everyone will take to mean those on Lerebours. The internet becomes a big "reference library" for most people. If they read your post, they will start repeating that "any Lerebours above xxx is in British fittings..." which I don't believe there is any proof or reason to believe.

I'm rereading this thread. In your post 61 you mention another lens you found with a scratched serial number. But it's a mistake to assume that mark was only made by Lerebours. There are other possibilities:

1. Other makers could have done the tiny "rice writing" at times
2. A Lerebours glass element could have been inserted by some owner (not the Lerbours or any other factory) to replace a broken lens

I have a Jamin Cone Centralizer with some tiny scratched writing on it's lens also. That could mean either Jamin did it at times (he did learn lens making from Lerebours after all) Or that someone replaced the lens in my Jamin with a Lerebours. Or, I suppose, that Lerebours made lenses for Jamin... See what I mean? We can hypothesize any number of reasons for these cases.

In post #18 in this thread, you considered that J.F.Shew lenses from the mid 1850 did have Lerebours glass.

They have been included in the serial number list for some time. There is advertising copy that J.F.Shew sold Lerebours lenses.

The earlier orphan scratched lenses (starting from around serial number 2000 - 1845) look exactly like the "standard" lerebours system.
At this date, Lerebours did not have the status it had later in the century so it did not have a reputation to defend. All sales were important.
I doubt there will be any documentary evidence forecoming which will confirm these early use of Lerebours lenses by others.

OK, thanks. I'm getting old, and forgetting more than I ever knew. Wait...is that possible?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

In post #18 in this thread, you considered that J.F.Shew lenses from the mid 1850 did have Lerebours glass.

They have been included in the serial number list for some time. There is advertising copy that J.F.Shew sold Lerebours lenses.

The earlier orphan scratched lenses (starting from around serial number 2000 - 1845) look exactly like the "standard" lerebours system.
At this date, Lerebours did not have the status it had later in the century so it did not have a reputation to defend. All sales were important.
I doubt there will be any documentary evidence forecoming which will confirm these early use of Lerebours lenses by others.

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I think Lerebours had much more status and relative importance in 1839/1845.
Do not forget that was in the earliest team with Bianchi, Giroux, Chevalier y Gaudin as Daguerre's camera/lenses maker/provider, a really early manufacturer of some advanced cameras and lenses, an early Voigtlander's retailer in France and then the first french maker of Petzval lenses, "Excursions Daguerriennes", "Traite de Photographie et...",
In 1850/1860 he was very popular and massive, but comparatively less important; and similar to many other manufacturers in terms of the quality and innovation of its products...
Check at "Histoire de la Photographie" by Lecuyer, "Theorie und Geschichte des photographischen Objektives" by Von Rohr or "History of Photography" by Eder among others....

Exactly. Lerebours et Secretan was the most important early photographic lens maker. Before most or all of the others. They even optimized the Petzval formula to be more corrected for the color spectrum. And Darlot was an apprentice at Lerebours, where he learned lens making. Early on, Lerebours et Secretan had the best status: exclusivity. They also were instrumental in producing the Petzval lens type that led to their early competitor's loss in the market (Chevalier and his failed lens).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anachromatic

I think Lerebours had much more status and relative importance in 1839/1845.
Do not forget that was in the earliest team with Bianchi, Giroux, Chevalier y Gaudin as Daguerre's camera/lenses maker/provider, a really early manufacturer of some advanced cameras and lenses, an early Voigtlander's retailer in France and then the first french maker of Petzval lenses, "Excursions Daguerriennes", "Traite de Photographie et...",
In 1850/1860 he was very popular and massive, but comparatively less important; and similar to many other manufacturers in terms of the quality and innovation of its products...
Check at "Histoire de la Photographie" by Lecuyer, "Theorie und Geschichte des photographischen Objektives" by Von Rohr or "History of Photography" by Eder among others....

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Agreed! I had forgotten his literary contribution in the early days. Until 1845 he was only making single achromats and the Doomed Combine. The Petzval version came in 1845, when he became Lerebours et Secretan and started serial numbers. THe Petzval was not a major product until late in the late 1840's - as can be seen in the serial number / lens type list in this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

Agreed! I had forgotten his literary contribution in the early days. Until 1845 he was only making single achromats and the Doomed Combine. The Petzval version came in 1845, when he became Lerebours et Secretan and started serial numbers. THe Petzval was not a major product until late in the late 1840's - as can be seen in the serial number / lens type list in this thread.

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Steven, Lerebours was making lenses with the Petzval design from 1842. He started as retailer of Voigtlander lenses and few months later he starts production of Petzval lenses. Lerebours early cameras(1839-1842)fits achromats lenses; maybe few cameras in 1842 fits the earliest Petzval lenses by Voigtlander and from 1842 in advance he sell cameras with Lerebours Petzval lenses.
Some samples from my collection coming soon....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

Agreed! I had forgotten his literary contribution in the early days. Until 1845 he was only making single achromats and the Doomed Combine. The Petzval version came in 1845, when he became Lerebours et Secretan and started serial numbers. THe Petzval was not a major product until late in the late 1840's - as can be seen in the serial number / lens type list in this thread.

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Actually, that is wrong. Lerebours was making Petzvals from the early 1840s, not late. According to the Vade Mecum, "He designed Petzval Portrait Lenses with improved colour correction in 1840." But I think that's about a year or so early. By 1842, yes many Petzvals were being built by Lerebours. He sold and recommended them in his 1843 Treatise (a 3rd edition guide and catalog), and the period journals are full of reports on using them. ("Double Objective" is a Petzval)

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/862/43...1f09a3e1_o.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1834/4...f4025dcf44.jpg
A treatise on photography : containing the latest discoveries and improvements appertaining to the daguerreotype
(by Lerebours, 1843) here

Yes, I was aware of the 1842/43 Lerebours publications and the lenses for Gaudin and "systeme allemand".
But where are these pre-serial number Petzvals? I haven't been able to find any in the Pont et Princelle booklet or even in Corrado's book.
I am also intrigued by figures 7 and 8 in the last post - and which is also reproduced on page 15 in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Is this really a very poor sketch of a Petzval - or is this a Verres Combines? Certainly, Pont et Princelle think it is a Verres Combines in the sketch!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anachromatic

[/U][/B]

Steven, Lerebours was making lenses with the Petzval design from 1842. He started as retailer of Voigtlander lenses and few months later he starts production of Petzval lenses. Lerebours early cameras(1839-1842)fits achromats lenses; maybe few cameras in 1842 fits the earliest Petzval lenses by Voigtlander and from 1842 in advance he sell cameras with Lerebours Petzval lenses.
Some samples from my collection coming soon....

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I look forward to seeing these as you seem to be the only owner of a Lerebours (not Lerebours et Secretan!) Petzval!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

Yes, I was aware of the 1842/43 Lerebours publications and the lenses for Gaudin and "systeme allemand".
But where are these pre-serial number Petzvals? I haven't been able to find any in the Pont et Princelle booklet or even in Corrado's book.
I am also intrigued by figures 7 and 8 in the last post - and which is also reproduced on page 15 in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Is this really a very poor sketch of a Petzval - or is this a Verres Combines? Certainly, Pont et Princelle think it is a Verres Combines in the sketch!

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Steven,here you have some samples of Lerebours Petzval lenses(dit "Systeme Allemand") from circa 1842/1843. In the next replay, I added also pics of an original and really early Voigtlander petzval lens(serial #380) that is fitted on a really early Lerebours daguerreian camera(not a collodion camera!!) from adaguerreian set from late 1842/early 1843. Also a sort of "missing link" from the earliest Lerebours Petzval lenses to the regular Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses. This one is signed "Lerebours & Secretan" but has not serial number.
Finally some pics from the really 3th edition of Lerebours traite and Catalogue of May 1842.


2 Lerebours Petzval lenses(c.1842/1842) and 1 Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lens(c.1845) with no serial number.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...923/NSfHdp.jpg

Lerebours Petzval lens(c.2nd half of 1842) that comes from Marseille, France.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...922/BpZwTg.jpg

Lerebours Petzval lens(c.2nd half/1st half 1843) that comes from UK.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...924/UCcY9V.jpg

Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lens(c.1845) with no serial number that comes from a daguerreian/collodion camera set sold in France
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...921/Rid8ha.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

Yes, I was aware of the 1842/43 Lerebours publications and the lenses for Gaudin and "systeme allemand".
But where are these pre-serial number Petzvals? I haven't been able to find any in the Pont et Princelle booklet or even in Corrado's book.
I am also intrigued by figures 7 and 8 in the last post - and which is also reproduced on page 15 in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Is this really a very poor sketch of a Petzval - or is this a Verres Combines? Certainly, Pont et Princelle think it is a Verres Combines in the sketch!

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Here the early Voitlander Petzval lens fitted on a Lerebours daguerreian camera(c. 1842/1843) and the Lerebours Traite and Catalogue from May 1842(3th edition).

Voigtlander Petzval lens serial #380 fitted on an early Lerebours daguerreian camera(c.1842/1843)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...923/AlwLo4.jpg

Lerebours Traite and Catalog from May of 1842
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...921/u1gQR4.jpg

Page of the May 1842 Lerebours Catalog where you can see the doubble lens or objectif "Systeme Allemand".....Petzval lens.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...923/M8266O.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

I look forward to seeing these as you seem to be the only owner of a Lerebours (not Lerebours et Secretan!) Petzval!

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I have two early Petzvals made by Lerebours. I think one of them is really early....maybe late 1842. Both signed only "Lerebours" and with no serial number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anachromatic

Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lens(c.1845) with no serial number that comes from a daguerreian/collodion camera set sold in France
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...921/Rid8ha.jpg

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The two Lerebours Petzvals are very impressive - pity there are no images of these in the few "standard" works.
I am not so sure about the one above - which is one of three "Lerebours & Secretan" sold through Flints last year. Very early 1845 production could be an explanation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

The two Lerebours Petzvals are very impressive - pity there are no images of these in the few "standard" works.
I am not so sure about the one above - which is one of three "Lerebours & Secretan" sold through Flints last year. Very early 1845 production could be an explanation.

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No doubt about this lens, is something like a "missing link". Its morphology is closer to the very first Petzvals made by Lerebours but already corresponds to the period of the Lerebours & Secretan brand. Made certainly in 1845.
That sale was only the last link in a chain, the lens pops with a "fresh to the market" photographer set...

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...921/n2PEtM.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anachromatic

[/I][/B]

No doubt about this lens, is something like a "missing link". Its morphology is closer to the very first Petzvals made by Lerebours but already corresponds to the period of the Lerebours & Secretan brand. Made certainly in 1845.
That sale was only the last link in a chain, the lens pops with a "fresh to the market" photographer set...

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...921/n2PEtM.jpg

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God, what have bad memory!
Reviewing the information, I realized that I have in my collection, 3 more examples of Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses without serial number!
Two of them comes from the same photographer set that I post before. Pretty sure that the 4 lenses were a whole set of a daguerreotypist. Camera with big lens(maybe A. Millet) was added later.

3 more Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses without serial number.
The small one...from the daguerreotypist set.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...921/gJbUaw.jpg

The big one...from the daguerreotypist set too.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...924/4aQ36N.jpg


Big one but no proveneance info :-(
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...923/TuuHTB.jpg

And here the whole "team" of Lerebours and Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses without serial number...!
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...922/zxULbC.jpg

Excellent! These are very historic and rare lenses. Congratulations to you.

Garrett, thank you so much!

Hi everybody, I have very first Petzval made for A Gaudin by Lerebours. One mark "5" on the body, near rack and pinion, so It's the serial of this lens? Thanks!

Attachment 181339 Attachment 181340 Attachment 181341

It is not the serial number. Normally, these small numbers identify some, or each lens part.

Hi anachromatic, Are you sure? Check the link below out. The number on that lens (same brand) is 4186 - too big number to identify any lens part.

link of this lens:
https://www.oldlens.com/gaudin%20petzval%20lens.html

Attachment 181393

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duyfam

Hi anachromatic, Are you sure? Check the link below out. The number on that lens (same brand) is 4186 - too big number to identify any lens part.

link of this lens:
https://www.oldlens.com/gaudin%20petzval%20lens.html

Attachment 181393

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Agree with Anachromatic. I have a few barrels with single digit numbers that were part of tool identification, most of them are at the rack.

I have also few lenses with 4 digits stamped in and those I consider serial numbers.

Soooo, it all depends on the situation.

Cheers,

Just confirming that the lens Steven is talking about is also the lens I bought, so serial 2964.

The brass is indeed non-Lerebours. I have other lenses to compare with.

Few months ago I picked up a Lerebours & Secretan landscape lens with missing glass.

What appears to be the rear cell holder is different as it doesn't have any thread in it. Internal diameter is 85.5mm and it appears that's a receiver for a lens cell of some sorts.

So yes, I'll be milling that non-Lerebours brass down to fit the 85.5mm landscape lens receiver and assemble as such a functional landscape lens albeit with a different serial number on the glass (2964) as the barrel (4914) or 1950 units apart ;)

As for the landscape barrel, came with two washer stops, brass lens cap is missing and a few screws holding the pinion.

I'm clearly not a purist !

Attachment 181421Attachment 181422Attachment 181423

Cheers,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steven Tribe

Very interesting, because....

Within the last week I have had a PM from a very astute and experienced UK member about another 81mm front achromat - in non-Lerebours brass! - with the edge scratched number of 2964.

I have come to the conclusion that edge serial number scratching is not a "prevention of fraud", but more a method of keeping tabs of the glass he ( Lerebours OR Lerebours et Secretan) provided for (probably UK based) makers who made the brasswork.

Note that these 2000 serial numbers are around 1845/6.

Remember that the achromats used in landscape lenses and the front cell in Petzvals were identica. 81mm was a popular size for Lerebours and most serial numbers in the 2000's are Landscapes - so perhaps the achromat was used in a UK landscape lens around 1846?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duyfam

Hi anachromatic, Are you sure? Check the link below out. The number on that lens (same brand) is 4186 - too big number to identify any lens part.

link of this lens:
https://www.oldlens.com/gaudin%20petzval%20lens.html

Attachment 181393

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Whilst I am sure that the no. 5 is a size reference to the gears used in the tangential drive in your case, I have seen more than a couple of lenses marked with 4 digit numbers here - both of French and UK origin. Some have had makers/sellers initials at the same spot - some didn't! The "makers" were mostly hardly known and couldn't have made the number of lenses suggested by the serial number! Age looks to be around the 1850's.