Paul,
"if it looks like a pig, smells like a pig, oinks like a pig, and tastes like a pig..."
So you really don't know, right?
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Paul,
"if it looks like a pig, smells like a pig, oinks like a pig, and tastes like a pig..."
So you really don't know, right?
Kerry has worked very hard for the LF community over the years. If Mr. Thalmann is no longer involved, I see no reason to put my money on the line.
I too have been doing business with SE Asia for the past 10 years. It's not easy. There are vast chasms between East and West when it comes to doing business. Paul, I have no idea how you make it work. You can't believe how hard we work to get something out of India (engineering)...
I would seem prudent for this manufacturer to show face at some event where the camera can be displayed and questions can be answered. It would also seem wise for the owner to address the service questions above, especially since, and as stated, he might disappear for weeks at a time on his travels. I would suspect his factory is still working tho? If anything can be learned here, it is that Americans value service quite highly, especially on items of high cost. It is still a new world for private American individuals to purchase any item, let alone high dollar items from overseas, especially when there are no American referrals for the item or abilities to judge the item thru handling.
Maybe something like a PayPal or Ebay account would help alleviate some anxiety? What I would appreciate as a buyer is recourse; Something that is not seemingly available when dealing overseas. If anything, the world of online equipment purchases, especially for used items, has made all of us quite leery and this can certainly be projected towards items of high cost and foreign manufacture. To be put simply, when in Rome do as the Romans. If you do not understand the term, when in the U.S. do business as the Americans do. Establish yourself, prove yourself and be there when we need you.
Hey - mellow out folks. Hugo is a respected member of this community - he and people like him make this place what it is.
Okay, perhaps names should not have been mentioned without pemission - I'm sure that the parties involved are big enough to put it behind them.
Hugo - if you want to make this thing fly you'll likely have to travel to trade shows.
Alternatively, Hugo can do an open house to demo the cameras. Plane ticket is cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric James
It would be nice if the cameras are offered with different levels of customer support, say,
Including supports that the Americans are used to, the camera price is $5000; No customer supports at all, price is $1500; and anything in between, these are just examples. I would give the camera a demo-trial, and if it's good, I'd buy it with no customer supports:D . I'm a handy person, I have no problem fixing it if it breaks. I prefer to spend my money on films to keep the film available.
Thank you for your kind word, Eric! Quite a relief after taking this much heat after my first posting.
The sample 7x17 camera and holder for the VC review should be back to me soon and I can show interested parties in southern California.
Life is learning. I have been shooting LF for a few years and my gears never seem to need service and support from a dealer. Plus the fact Chamonix didn't want to get into US market in its first two years because they want to work out the bugs and see their cameras can work smoothly in users' hands. They have very rigid quality control procedures and don't want to increase volume just to meet demand. They are not going to expand their operation and want to go slowly to build their brand name. It's my fault, I tempted Chamonix with our market place.
Wayne, In a perfect world, it's nice to have a network of dealers in US for support and service. But we don't live in a perfect world. A well financed dealer to import the cameras. Ocean freight lasts three to six months for small amount of items. Dealers fair and modest margin and high operation costs. Domestic shipping to buyers. My fair and modest cut. All these added up and nobody was happy. Buyer will be paying more for cameras. I had no other choice but to do this way. I have a Paypal account for use when needed.
Communication problems with the owner who has to travel between his factory in southern China and Beijing and sometimes for his photo trips. I warned him that he had to cut down his photography to serve our US market. Since then I has been talking with him with no problem. He has delivered fine products to me as promised.
My goal is really simple: to put these beautiful cameras in users hands here. Thankfully people have sent private emails to encourage me and asking for prices and other information.
I am grateful to this forum and people who have showed me their understanding and support.
I have no problem in the age of the internet and international shipping with buying from a foreign manufacturer with no domestic service or representation. There are plenty of civilized countries out there with high quality businesses, including China, and in some cases one does better by going to the source.
But in this case the situation with Kerry raises some genuine concerns about the way that Chamonix conducts business. Kerry's obviously invested time, labor, and I assume money in this project, and he has generated interest in these cameras by lending his credibility to the company, and it seems from Hugo Zhang's initial announcement and the tone of Kerry's response that Kerry's been unceremoniously cut out of the picture. It doesn't look good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo Zhang
Your amusement was not so sincere, it seems. And your allusions at what happened (so you don't know anything..?) gives you really the much needed credit in the eyes of customers. Never mind, you don't need it, you get a lot of emails from potential customers.. So Chamonix is coming? Or maybe leaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo Zhang
I, at least from the photos, think the Chaminox cameras look pretty nice but perhaps the first buyers will be able to give more realistic responses soon. I'm not sure though Hugo why you would be saying that all the expenses were just too much and such to have a US distributor... Isn't that just the cost of doing business? It doesnt seem to bother Lotus or Ebony sales here in the US. Shipping and overhead is mostly a business write off at the end of the year anyway and with the customer of course paying for domestic shipping. Also...if expenses are really to be cut to the bone...why in the world would you want to process Paypal and pay an extra 4% or so of the total retail price.... Thats $200- per $5000- sale, almost a dealers cut. Are your profit margins that good?? I'm really not getting your statements here. But anyway...maybe buyers will happy with their Chaminox cameras and things will iron themselves out...I just wonder why you want to be the cheapest guy on the block. Why not just charge a fair price for a good product and use a distributor to iron out the difficulties. But I guess you do have a US distributor, he just doesnt know it yet.
If I do remember well, CHAMONIX is a well known orange cake from NESTLE, and still alive.
It gives little room for a LF brand
yes, Michel.
Now going 100% OFF-TOPIC (moderator, fell free to apply the Hard Rules ;-))
For those interested, Chamonix-Orange®, as it was branded in the past, now simply branded Chamonix®, it is a kind of ginger bread, orange-flavoured, covered with an "icy" crust of sugar. Hence the icy reference to Chamonix. Not good for you diet, but so delicious ;-)
It has been on the market, at least in France, for at least half a century and is probably marketed in the EU without trouble.
So previous regulations did not prohibit to call a product 'Chamonix'.
Very probably there would be little objection to register a brand name 'Chamonix-Camera'. How many AAA-repair, AAAA-repair, AAAAA-repair are registered in the States without any objection from the well-established AAA ;-) ;-) and how many 'ACME' ;-)
'Champagne' is a different issue. Here are some true stories that I like very much.
(disclaimer 100% OFF-TOPIC !! I'm not affiliated, etc...)
1/ A well-know French luxury company was a few years ago denied the right to use the name 'Champagne' for a perfume sold in France. But regulations are different in the rest of the world.
2/ In Switzerland (Vaud county) there is a nice village named : Champagne. The village has been known under this name and has been producing wine for such a long time that you could imagine since the Roman times ;)
However they would have hard times selling their wine abroad under the brand 'Champagne'.
However, in the same village, there is a fine manufacturer of biscuits. One of the products I prefer in this product line are "bricelets" a kind of wafer, similar to a 3" silicon wafer but more crispy ;-)
Their brand as a biscuit manufacturer is : "De Champagne". They opened a factory in nearby France and first sold their product under a different brand. Probably they eventually succeded in using the brand 'De Champagne' in France since they abandoned the other brand that nobody would recognise.
3/ Another funny story about legally using the name of a village for a commercial purpose.
In France there is a place named : Aoste. No connexion at all with Aosta in Italy, a famous place located just on the other side of.. Chamonix where people speak French as well;-)
A company located in Aoste, France, makes ham and advertises it as 'Aoste Ham' (Jambon d'Aoste). Many French customers associate the name Aoste with Italy, and hence associate the brand with a top-quality image. There has never been anything like 'Aosta Prosciutto' in Italy, although the ham that you can enjoy as antipasti in Aosta, when you come down, exhausted, from climbing the Italian Side of Mont Blanc carrying your LF gear in your backpack is most probably top-class ;-)
So apparently, nobody can deny the guys in Aoste, France, to sell 'Jambon d'Aoste' like, probably, nobody can deny the rights to sell 'de Champagne' biscuits ;)
So again, good luck to... Ch.... cameras !
Trademarks are issued in the context of products. Because Chamonix is trademarked for some things does not give it blanket protection for all products. Hugo, you can probably trademark Chamonix in the US for photographic products..Evan ClarkeQuote:
Originally Posted by David Karp
I think the tone of the discussion reflects my original impression of the LF/ULF crowd. It's not as bad as the Leica crowd, but can be on occasions.
So the thread starts with a good news : because I feel that anyone who produce anything new in the fiom industry and help it toward self-sustainability is a good news, whether it's from Antartica, China or Canada.
And then, as usual, there is a pack of what I can only picture as "small dogs" barge in and start barking; not always the same people mind you, pick any 3 or 5. You can see that happening in many topics. Post a joke message about "Ilford vs Kodak" and I'm sure by the second page some "venerable" persons will already have started with the snipe comments and personal attacks.
In this case, wether a business deal fell thru between a company and a potential distributor (or whatever) does not interest me. These things happend. I don't know any of the participants anyway. If they want to explain to the world their version of the issue, they can always open a blog!
What interests me is the price, disponibility and experience of people who have bought the goods. Not the barking of people who will never do anyway.
It is good for the ULF community to have more competition (as to how much, time will tell), but I am concerned for Kerry's efforts. But there are always two sides to every story. Perhaps the financial arrangements could not be agreed upon. As with any business, customer service and reputation will be 'fettered' out over time. I am sure over time buyers will report results here.
Regardless of the distributorship situation there are reviews and specs of the Ritter and Chamonix 7x17 cameras in the March/April 07 issue of View Camera. There are advantages and disadvantages to each camera.
We will try and proceed with the ULF fim holder reviews and critiques but it will be up to Mr. Zang to provide us with samples from Chamonix now that it is his program.
steve simmons
view camera magazine
Hugo: If Kerry spent time and energy doing the groundwork for you, the least you could do is pay him with a nice new camera.
What does everyone else think about this idea?
The same thing I think about most of the other "discussion" in this thread. It's none of our business; strictly between the parties involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank R
For those who personally know one or the other of the parties involved I would agree that some public (or even private) acknowledgment, statement, clarification, or comment might be in order.
Something still seems very fishy. After all, at least one of the parties involved was excited about their participation in the venture and saw interesting and fun potential.
For those who don't wish to know the details, do you really want another Wisner on your hands? Do you really feel that "business" trumps all else?
I personally saw the 7x17 in question. It is indeed a very nice camera. But until I understand what's happened, I'm voting with my money and will spend it elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank R
Any new large format product, even from a niche sized indie outfit is welcome. Guess I'm still naive to think that as I read the sheer lack of grace in some of the putrid comments here.
Completely agree. There is always a tendency to want to evaluate and hash these situations out at the personal level when it is strictly business and as a result, emotion must be checked at the door. Get over it and go make some photographs - spring is in the air......Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura
Cheers!
Christopher, I'm as curious as the next person. But, until Kerry or Hugo post "the details," I'm content to let them and the manufacturer sort out everything in private.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Perez
Since I have no burning desire to purchase another camera anytime soon, waiting years to see whether Chamonix turns out like Wisner is no problem for me. :)
Sal, what you say is indeed entirely fair.
On the flip side, a small group of photographers in my area were talking about throwing in together to make a purchase. We'd each get one month round robin with the camera(s). The 7x17 looked like fun. The 14x17 looked awesome. Seemed like an economical rather fun approach to sharing resources. We were thinking about it until this thread appeared, that is... :( :( :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura
Hugo,
Congratulations! This thread now has over 4300 views!!! By Google standards you must owe the moderators over $2,000. What a great advertisement!
This also means there is great interest in large cameras, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bowen
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob
No. Just for the gossip.
G
"EPS" has made over 600 anonymous posts, including silly diatribes. "e" has around 300 anonymous posts to his credit, if credit is the right word. Are these initials a way in which people who post here with other names can be ridiculous without taking the blame? Or are people with competing business interests using the forum to sabotage potential competition? Or perhaps it's just verbal masturbation from the very old? I am uneasy about this thread anyway. Usually when business dealings go sour, there are two sides to the story of what happened. Here, everyone seems to know everything without anything being said in public. Although I find the forum useful, I don't think I like it anymore.
This is an unfortunate situation. We are getting e-mails wondering what is going on and I am not sure what to tell people.
It would be helpful if Mr Zang would contact us and give us up to date info.
steve simmons
Steve,
It is an unfortunate situation. But we do have cameras of various sizes up to 20x24 in inventory in China. Anybody interested can PM me for more information.
Hugo Zhang
Many of my readers do not participate in this forum and don't know to PM you here.
steve
Then I will put a little ad in your magazine for your readers. Can you kindly PM me for the rate information?
Thanks.
Hugo
Michael,
I'm "e" and this stands for Emile de Leon. When I joined this forum 6 years ago somehow my name/ikon got reduced from Emile de Leon which I use on this and on all other LF forums I belong to, to an "e" when the servers on this forum were changed. I did not have anything to do with this and I always use my full name on all the other forums I'm apart of. I never bothered to change my ikon on this forum but didn't like it ("e") either. So please don't go assuming that I'm trying to hide my true identity. I'm not. I probably should change my ikon but I'm not exactly computer savvy. IMO there are two views here. One for the business side of things (Kerry's) and one view for the photog who wants the best price for his ULF outfit. Actually 3 views...those on the sidelines waiting to see what happens too with no specific opinion. But, these 2 main views have really nothing to do with the quality of Chaminox cameras which remains to be seen. These 2 views are perhaps mutually incompatible unless business ethics are brought into play instead of the usual cutthroat business tactics which seem so prevalent nowadays. Funny how many people make the remark of..."that's the way business is done" or something similar and don't give a rats ass about who gets screwed in the process, even one of their own. I've been in retail for over 12 years, I own a retail gift shop. I've seen a lot of stuff go down in that time. One lesson I've learned is that the avg customer will take a trip around the world to save 50 cents even though it cost him his arm and a leg in the end. I've seen that time and time again. Not all customers are like this though. I've also seen manufactures that cant make up their mind if they want to do retail or wholesale or both. Not good. As an example of unethical business practice I've seen Blo*kbuster video (several years ago now) come to my town and take a calculated loss on their Video rentals (by undercharging everyone else) for 1 or 2 years till all the little mom and pop video stores are out of business then raise prices back to normal once they have killed the competition. This was the word straight from a Blo*kbuster manager that was also a customer of mine. I have a pet peeve about this sort of business practice as I have seen so many small mom and pop outfits go out of business not because of their way they do business but because they acted fairly in a business sense and got shafted in the end. I don't really have a side here Chaminox-wise as this does not affect me in the least whether this camera company succeeds or not or whether they have good service or not. I just was surprised when after several months of Kerry's preparations and spoken enthusiasum on this forum and elsewhere for this company...then suddenly it went 180 degrees in the other direction as evidenced by his only response in this thread. Just kind of fishy smelling that's all. I'm not satisfied with the companies responses either. Emile.
Emile,
Thank you very much for your response to my post.Your description of your business situation mirrors mine. I direct a university-based book-publishing house. Although the press has a web-site, I do everything I can to avoid the reality or the appearance of competition with the bookstores who stock the press’s books. Every manufacturer is in a monopoly situation. Absent basic fairness, lacking a sense of commitment to business colleagues, the manufacturer can easily turn into a bully. And everyone looses. At you pointed out, the same failing can become the practice of predatory retail corporations.
Film photography seems to be gradually evolving to a scale where small and medium size companies are the manufacturers, with a range from Ebony Camera (which has less than a dozen employees) to Ilford (which must have several hundred).
I felt (and feel) that this whole thread is giving us bits and pieces of information without letting us know about this camera and its possibilities. Mr. Zhang perhaps does not have a strong background in business. Whatever the reason, his elusiveness is effectively discouraging interest in the cameras he represents, regardless of their quality. He does not seem to understand that openness and customer service, at all levels and in all ways, are primary concerns of photographers who are buying specialized equipment. Also, a sense of reliable wholesale management is essential. He needs to work with retailers who are already established. He, by himself, has, as far as I know, no track-record and, therefore, no credibility.
Lastly, thank you for not responding to my barbs. I was obviously mistaken about you. I needed some explanation. I apologize for characterizing you as I did.
Given how few ULF camera makers out there at any point in time, any new comer is welcoming news and cannot be a threat to any of the existing players given their own cult like followings. For what the market place is for such oddity as ULF film cameras, Chamonix can not compare to any global corporation in every aspect in how business is conducted, if it's not a "mom&pop" operation, one can be certain that it also cannot be anything like factories cranking nike shoes or inexpensive DVD players. If Chamonix can provide light yet strong ULF cameras without infringing or violating any existing patents, that itself is elegantly put together with a competitive price point to the end users. I say this new option is a good thing, just think about a light ULF camera that allow one to shoot more than 10 feet away from a car on the roadside, that you can haul into the woods, up the mountain, down the canyon… sure you can do this with a Wisner, or oldie like Korona, but wouldn’t you really rather carry a few more film holders with you instead.
As far as the business interaction between Kerry and Chamonix, as few have said earlier, it’s one of personal and business confidential information, and as the nature of such dealing goes there is always two sides of the story, we can speculate all we want, but personally I wouldn’t make any judgments until I have heard from at least three independent sources.
Robert
I agree strongly with Michael that more technical information or image of the camera themselves would a excellent idea, I for one are extremely curious about the details such as weights, range and degree of movements, accessories availabilities...
Since most requested information I have received so far are about technical details and prices so far. I might as well post this information here. Please note the prices are in Chinese RMB which is currently 7.69 to one US dollar. Of course the buyer will pay the shipping from the factory in China.
Another note, there are much interest in custom made cameras, such as convertible backs and extra long bellows for 14x17, 16x20 and 20x24, so users can shoot portraits and landscapes using the same camera. Interested parties can email me for details.
Film holders weight and price
7x17 930g RMB 3000
8x20 1130g RMB 3600
14x17 1490g RMB 3800
16x20 1960g RMB 4500
20x24 3390g RMB 5000
Tech Data:
7x17 weight 4190g(white), 4700g(black), Bellows draw: Max 620mm, Min
120mm, back standard tilt 11 degree, front rise and fall 85mm, left and
right shift 75mm price RMB 23500
8x20 weight 4650g(white), 5110g(black), Bellow max 690mm, Min 100mm,
rear
standard tilt 10 degree, front rise and fall 100mm, left and right shift
75mm, price: RMB 26500
14x17 weight 6600g, bellows max 800mm min 210mm Rear standard tilt
10
degree, front rise and fall 220mm, left and right shift 104mm, price:
RMB
28500
12x20 weight 6540g bellows max 700mm min 190mm rear standard tilt 12
degree, front rise and fall 195mm, left and right shift 104mm, price:
RMB
28500
20x24 weight 12510g, bellows max 920mm, min 220mm rear standard tilt
11
degree front rise and fall 285mm, left and right shift 104mm, price: RMB
38500
Now that most folks have had a chance to comment, and Hugo has answered questions about pricing, I think it's appropriate to close this thread. The intention is not to limit debate, but simply to keep the discussion within the guidelines relative to the commercial aspects of the issue.