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Added to the list!
This size no.4 is popular! Both Rudi and I have it.
I have just realised that most french makers seem to have started using serial numbers during the middle and late 1850's. Will research a bit and find out if it is worth a separate thread, especialy as to who started the trend.
Do you know what's written in pencil on the edge of the lenses ?Quote:
Originally Posted by purplecloud
Just curious, part of the fun finding out ;-)
Cheers !
Received a #4 Hermagis Convertible 9787 today.
Front Achromat reads "Hermagis" and in similar cursive writing "B.L.N". In addition in what I believe to be a different style writing "E. Vallet"
Rear negative meniscus reads "Hermagis" and in similar cursive writing "B.L.N". We find the same "E. Vallet" writing. Almost illegible, in small cursive also E. Donche. Some rim glass damage to this element. Rear group had the elements flipped and the positive lens reversed. Corrected upon assembly.
No WHS but there was a thick black cardboard washer style restrictor installed marked in pencil with F=7 in a cavity made for the purpose. Need to remove the rear lens group to access.
No dates, no slew of numerals but possibly the initials of the workers and equally possible names of others who have worked on this lens. Achromat is flawless, no separation, so most likely well maintained during life.
EDIT
What I'm describing above as a washer style restrictor was of course used for aperture control on the landscape lens. This #4 has a lip to prevent the stop to fall through. My #3 convertible (1859) doesn't have this feature at the landscape side of the lens.
Cheers,
Hermagis Petzval (non-convertible) serial #15981 from 1874, focal length 215mm, WHS.
Added to the list. There are quite a few years in the 1870's after this one (1874), where we still have holes and, perhaps, low annual productions. Could this be due to Dallmeyer's Patent Petzval becoming popular?
Hermagis convertible, #7 size, serial number 9277j, no WHS
No markings on front achromat (was re-balsamed at least once in its lifetime)
Rear cell negative lens marked Hermagis, no other marks found. This lens had every single thread mis-treaded.
The restricter has provisions for removable stops.
This #7 design is slightly different than my other #7 design (serial 12561 with WHS)
I was stimulated to have a look at my no. 8 plain petzval again. This is one of my two pre-serial number lenses (and before the introduction of the convertible patent lens). Full of edge numbers - I think I have mentioned this before. I did some comparisons with the table of lens diameters and size reproduced in the P et P Hermagis booklet. This gives the diameters in both the original (archaic) measures as well as modern metric measure. This table cannot be very precise, as there is no constant factor for ligne/mm. This number 8 is listed as 19 lignes and "translated" to 44mm - whilst the real diameter is 41/42mm on my no. 8. I don't think this is an "early variant" size as Hermagis (And other makers) stuck to the lens diameters they had selected early in their history. Hermagis, used lens diameters 54, 61 and 81mm for all series until their anastigmatics.
Table of 19th century serial numbers is updated.
Hermagis Petzval lens with serial number 2163, focus length about 135mm.
Unfortunately, the making date was not marked on the glass.
Attachment 174021Attachment 174022Attachment 174023
Well this causes a lot of consternation!
The serial number looks original.
It looks like a plain Petzval which would match with the date deduced from the serial number (1853?). It makes the previous reported earliest number of 3xxx look more likely. Hermagis must have "ocassionally" added serial numbers on their lenses before serial number 6xxx. This must be the case as there are only 2 reported under 6xxx.
No lenses this early have date written on lens edges.
Perhaps you could look inside the barrel to see whether there is a black backing paper strip around the inserted geared track? Or signs that has been one there in the past - and unblacked brass section where the paper used to be?
And lens glass diameter is?
Agreed that this is somewhat of a assumption changer.
The lens clearly says "Brevet d'invention" ... question now is, which invention ? The 1856 ? That would be hard to believe as this would suggest an enormous output. What there another brevet/patent prior to 1856 ? Or was this simply bluff ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Steven, this lens is not mine, I found these pictures on a blog. The geared track is missing. Here is the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Rudi, one more interesting thing with this lens is the barrel was cut into two pieces and can joint together by screw threads. You can find the details thought the link above. Not sure it was factory cut or cut by users.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amedeus
Of course, the patent engraving changes everything!
I assumed it was a simple barrel as you would have discovered it (if you had it in your hands!). It is the standard make up for the convertible, which is just about impossible to make from a standard barrel and, anyway, a later modification would have gone for a WHS solution.
It appears to have lost the track, lens hood and the internal stop frame system - a troubled life indeed. The serial number doesn't match with 1856 patent date. Unless it was something produced before the patent date as part of development work or patent application. But then it shouldn't have the patent "boast" engraved.
The final problem is that it can't be an added serial number as all known convertible Hermagis Petzvals did have a serial number ex-workshop. Could be an example of a 5 digit serial number which has "lost" the last digit?
WHatever, I'll edit the table again (#20) to reflect uncertainty - which effects the other odd number.
This is most likely a #9 convertible based on focal length and diameter of the barrel at the rear.
I took the liberty to have the link from lucaas translated and for what it is worth, this is what the writer states. Some comments added.
"It is very old HERMAGIS with serial number 2163. There is a theory that HERMAGIS Inc. was founded in 1845. Once in 1854 the stamp of DEROGY et HERMAGIS can be seen, but then we will return to HERMAGIS again. There is a document that 8745 is manufactured in 1862, so on average it seems that we produced about 500 lenses a year. From this, it can be inferred that lens No. 2163 is manufactured around 1850."
"I read a handwritten F = 13.5 under the engraving. This is thought to be a note by the former owner of the focal length."
"If you attach the rack and pinion gear down to the camera, the engraving will turn upside down. Moreover, the engraved mark becomes hidden because it is hidden by the knob. Furthermore the shaft of the knob is very long."
"Disassembled view. The inner lens barrel can be divided into two. I saw this for the first time. The optical system is an ordinary Petzval. There is no diaphragm function at all."
"The lens is handwritten with Hermagis in pencil."
"A two-part barrel. Since there is no aperture, there is no need to split here. Perhaps I wanted to narrow the inner diameter slightly here and want to reduce internal reflection." ---- the writer is clearly not familiar with the convertible
"Screw the two-piece lens barrel together and it will fit at the position of the rack gear exactly. The rack gear itself is lost.
What a wonderful thread cutting technique! Although I was impressed, I think I would cut the groove for the rack gear afterwards. Probably initially it was a lens with neither diaphragm nor focusing function, but I think that a rack and pinion gear was added later" --- see my remark above.
"Since the flange is lost, a 52 mm step-up ring is glued" --- writer mounts the lens to a 52mm helicoid for use on a DSLR, this and the focal length most likely indicates that this is a #9 convertible with a lens diameter of ~44mm.
"The orientation of the characters of the engraving is also strange. It is obvious to concluded the pinion gear was added without thinking about engraving. The overall look is much like the lens manufactured by Voigtlander in Wien in 1851."
cheers,
This update relates to post #54Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
The new owner of this lens confirmed the lens diameter (79mm visible, 81mm diameter) and the focal length of 210mm. This makes it a F:2.7, not part of the typical list we use for the convertibles. So looking at all the lists I have for Petzval types from Hermagis, I can only find this configuration in the Serie Nr II from around 1900. There's a #6 which is 210mm at F2.7.
Only thing to conclude is that a list is just a list and that specials or prototypes were made as far as we can assume now.
Cheers,
Have new acquisition
Hermagis Eidoscope No.1 with serial No 516402
Regarding the number I guess it is one of the last Eidosopes made by Hermagis before change to SOM Berthiot. Anyway have no clue how old is that. Now I need to get flange replacement and happily looking forward to take first photo
Attachment 178773
1950ish. I have a No.3 (527494) just after the change and a No. 2 just before (510948.) The 1950 Som Berthiot catalog shows a Hermagis labeled Eidoscope No. 3 with serial number 516721.
Hermagis 13864 is already mentioned in the #20 post list as a convertible but just confirming the rear lens is marked 1867
It's a #6 to be clear, 70mm diameter glass.
Cheers
The original list was posting #20. This is now removed so it not found by a search.
Early Lenses engraved Hermagis do not have a serial number and in modern auctions are often described as “projection” lenses as there is no apparent means of adjusting the aperture. There are 5 lenses known without serial numbers (portrait Petzvals). However, there must be many more of these serial numberless Hermagis. The chosen start of Hermagis serial numbers (around 6100) can be explained by these earlier “anonymous” and the lenses made at the establishments which Mons. Hermagis was an active Partner.
VVVV no brass serial number. Many numbers on achromat and rear cell. Very nearly same numbers as on achromat YYYY. Fitted with “original?” Internal washer. Longer focal length than YYYY due to longer rear cell. No.9.
XXXX no brass serial number, "12 cent" on rear convex/concave. no. 7 plain Petzval. Blackened paper behind rack.
YYYY no brass serial number. Many numbers. no. 9 plain Petzval. Blackened paper behind rack.
ZZZZ no brass serial number, lens edges not seen- missing rear cell. size no.6?. blackened paper behind rack.
WWWW no brass serial number. Plain Petzval no.9
3670 early number noted by P et P. The photograph shows this is a modified sleeve. The pinion has been moved to the other side of the sleeve and the WHS cut-out has been made where the pinion was mounted. It appears the sleeve was originally as XXXX, YYYY etc.
Start of Serial numbers. 6285 ( and 7010) are engraved with the granted Patent, which was in July 1856. So 6285 cannot be before 1856. I venture to suggest that comprensive serial number engraving was begun at the same time this was granted. Derogy also had a patent granted in 1856 (multiples foyer) and onLy a single convertible lens is known without a serial number. So it looks like ex colleagues Derogy and Hermagis started serial number identification at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2163) Small Convert. Petzval no data on lens,patent engraving - impossible serial no.?
(3670) P et P image plain Petzval
6285 many digits, but no date - barrel engravings. Convertible
6872 digits but no date. barrel engraving Convertible#
7004. no date but signature on lens - sleeve engraving. Convertible
7010. P et P illustration p.8 - barrel engraving. Convertible.
7117. EBay listed March 2021. Plain Petzval
7242 many digits, but no obvious date. Convertible. No. 4.
8077 mange digits, no obvious date
8154. only hermagis on achromat. address and 1859 on rear. no.3 convertible
8268. catawiki auction huge ordinary Petzval with bayonnet rear pair
8745. D'Agostini
8893. Small Petzval U.K. auction 2020 lost hood
9277 Convert no.7
9283 Convert. No. 5. Rear cell lost. Only “Hermagis” in pencil on achromat. Not altered for WHS
9305 P et P
9335 Convert. no. 4
9342 Convert. ebay 2019
9787 Ebay january 2018 Convert. no.4. turner/Finisher names initials. No numbers.
9804. D'Agostini
9888. Convertible size (private info)
10251 P et P
10376 convertible medallion size 6 WHS _ track only on lower barrel.
10417 Ebay august 2017 large convertible sleeve engraved
10776. P et P
10922 D'Agostini
10981 Has dated lens edge in correct style 1874 Replacement? no. 5 convertible
11228. ebay june 2017
11272. P et P. stereo
11290. #7 ordinary portrait Petzval no WHS conversion.EBAY SALE March 2023 Hood and aperture insert gone.
11824 Breker auction
Start of dating of lenses?
12417 GermanLF forum larger CdV size
12421. P et P
12448 Ordinary Petzval with hood insert eBay jan2022
13240 1867
13657 1868
13864. 1867 70mm lens diameter #6 size convert
13995 1867
14098 1868
14444. 1868. convert.
14659. 1868
Franco-Prussian war!
15067. 1872
15463. P et P
15505. 1872
15512. 1873
15744. 1873
15838. no date. plain fast petzval. 180mm (No. 8?)
15904 1878 Replacement ?
15971. 1874
15974. 1874
15988 1874 dated on front and rear lenses SeriesII
16215 1875
16457. 1876
16723. 1876
16784. 1876
16944. 1876
17025. P et P
18635 1880 These two lenses suggest that there may have been a stock of lenses with
18702. 1883. their completion date added, but serial numbers were added later.
19411. 1884. Large plain Petzval
22071. 1888 plain Petzval
24312. (1)891 These are the final digits in a long series. Matches with production levels - of the late 80's early 90's.
27564 (18)92 No.7 series 1 fl 210
31912. (18)97 Large extra rapid series II Petzval
36099. (19)06. Another large extra rapid Series II Petzval.Size no.1. Used in a Spanish studio together with a very large Voigtlander Cooke triplet which is still keeping it Company (2023).
53360. (19)13. No.4 extra rapid. Series II Petzval
BOLD serial numbers are those added in 2019. Thanks!
The remaining 6 are from the 20th century.
It is obvious that the P et P table is very wrong about a serial number of 12,000 in 1870
Plain Hermagis Petzval 22071 from 1888 ... no balsam in the front achromat but curvature is a match when properly aligned. Lens diameter 61mm.
No paper over the track but a relatively hard waxy substance around the track.
Cheers,
I have seen one other Petzval ( GAsc et Charconnet - 3rd series Objectif Simplifies) without balsam. I assume it is a half finished attempt at balsam replacement. Will probably work OK as it is or with a suitable oil!
I apologise for the very late answer, finally I took the lens apart and looked at the edges of the lensesQuote:
Originally Posted by Amedeus
Actually there WAS something written with a pencil on both front and rear lenses, but unfortunately it is all smudged and not readable anymore
Some signs may be interpreted as to have formed the words "Hermagis" and "Paris", the rest is unfathomable
I'm the new owner of 15981 (1874) and the black paper is still over the track at the inside. Confirming the 210mm focal length with f2.7, covering 4x5. In addition to the 1874 on both achromat and negative lens in the rear cell, there's a 2 written in front (Deuxieme ?) I know Hermagis had at one point a Petzval series with larger aperture.
Cheers,
Looking at the two versions of series II on page 9 of the le reve Hermagis booklet, it is difficult to place it exactly! It certainly moves the date of this series ( which includes a number of these superfast F2.7 and even some around F2.5) to an earlier date that "1876" given in the booklet. This series was available until 1939!
Just realised that "Vallet" is mostly likely an artisan's rendering of Wallet who was given as co-producer of the early 1845 lenses, engraved Wallet & Hermagis! Or the E. Vallet could be Elisabeth Wallet (the daughter!) who married Eugene Derogy in 1852.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amedeus
Derogy had worked at Wallet and Hermagis' establishment some time after 1845 and before 1851 (when he was 22 years old). There is at least one lens which is engraved Derogy et Hermagis (Corrado's book). So signs of a workshop romance!
I will look at this again and see if I can get the lighting right for images ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Cheers,
In the 19th century, the letter "W" was not used in the french language. It was used for just a few words like "wallon" (The french speaking part of Belgium) and for personal surnames - like Wallet! It must have hurt traditionalists in France, when "le Weekend" was adopted when no existing expression was available in France. Someone with a basic school education, working on the workshop floor might not be acquainted with the difference between V and W.
I have thought of a new explanation for the very few early serial number engraved lenses. These appear to be genuine, but are many thousand numbers earlier than the known series which started around 6,500.
We know that a great many of the Hermagis Petzvals were made before Waterhouse stops became trade standard. We also know that after 1858, Voigtlander started a factory conversion offer for owners of "older" Petzvals. There was an option for correction of lenses to provide no focus difference between optical and chemical focus, and an option for provision of "central" aperture stops.
I can't really believe that french makers were unaware of Voigtlander's offer. They had already modified the Petzval design and many had a central stop design through making split barrels. But we can see that many front stop Hermagis Petzvals have been professionally converted to Waterhouse slot/stops. Perhaps Hermagis offered the same service that Voigtlander had in the early 1860's? This is a period when just about all makers had adopted serial numbers and a lens without a serial number would have thought of as somewhat bogus! If Hermagis had the same sort of record keeping as Dallmeyer had (stock/sales book) it would be possible to find (Or assign) the true, or approximate, serial number. So Hermagis could provide an extra service.
Both the two known "odd- too early" numbers have the Waterhouse stop conversion.
Hello everyone wanted to share this information
Hermagis Nr 31912
Extra Rapide pr Portrait No 3
450 mm Petzval
17cm high + 4cm Hood Front lens diam 9,2cm
In Pencil the rim of the lens is marked 97.... so it must be a lens from 1897
Thanks for all the info as it helped me a lot in dating the lens.
Extra Rapid Portrait No.3 should be a 310mm lens with 95mm diameter glass. You sure about those figures? Regular Portrait lens No.3 is a 450mm lens, but with 110mm glass.
Agreed!Quote:
Originally Posted by karl french
The F values for the two series II Hermagis Petzvals do vary a lot ( from F2.7 to 3.5), but the focal length of 450mm would give a F of nearly F5!
Variation in catalogue lens diameter and measured diameter is due to Hermagis using the bare glass diameter before mounting.
I have an Extra Rapide No.5 (25cm f3) and it matches the catalog dimensions. It's a great lens. I would love to find an Extra Rapide No. 1.
Some member at the German LF site seems to have acquired a nice specimen
and its serial is not in the database yet:
https://grossformatfotografie.de/thr...ektiv-um-1865/
Added.
It would interesting if the lens edges were checked for year dating, as it is close to the guessed serial number when Hermagis introduced this practice?
Hint to Ron - you appear to have excellent Deutsch skills - could you ask?
Picked up a small Hermagis, not convertible, lens diameter 42mm, no serial number. No WHS, restrictor is still in place.
Rear negative has Hermagis written on it, no other marks visible but they may have been there, signs of smudges.
Front achromat had Paris written on it, Hermagis style but a different name I'm still deciphering ... L Wue** or L Wul**, again signs of other previous marks, not legible at all. Achromat doesn't show any separation, so most likely redone a few times.
Cheers
Could this be "Wallet", perhaps? Father or the daughter who married Derogy when he was also working at Hermagis?
The new "no serial number" Hermagis has been added as "WWWW". There are now 4 of these - all regular style Petzvals
Looked at it under better light and it appears to be L. Wulff, ParisQuote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Did some checking and found 2 references to L Wulff online with respect to photography ...
Attachment 185328
Attachment 185329
The lens above has an 1860 reference while the camera illustration has a 1863 reference
So did L Wulff work for Hermagis early on and went on his own later ?
Also (edit), no immediate sign of black paper behind the rack, no tell tale exposed brass where the paper was.
Cheers !
Hi Steven, with regard to your request: I've posted the question on the German forum, however from the last posts there it appears the member in question seems more interested in selling his lens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Saw this one on a Chinese site, but apparently sold not long ago by the well known German auction site for about 970 Euros - it is not in the database:
http://laoxiangji.com/product-view-id-43378.html
10981 (the lens on the link) is a problem lens - especialy just now!
At the moment it is listed on an auction site until after Christmas. There is quite a range of focal lengths given for this lens at various earlier auctions - from 40cm to the current 35cm. The lens diameter of 75mm suggests it is the size 5 of the series I Petzval - and the focal length should be 240mm! It is also described as "Landscape" lens which suggests there may be something unusual with the optical set-up.
So I won't add to the list just now!
Definately not 400mm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
That size is a 300mm lens. I have two with exactly the same size.
The 'front' does not seem original to me - might be a Frankenstein lens....
Hermagis 10981 was sold for 850€ (plus 9% auction fees).
It looks exactly right to me as the standard "double-ender"!
The given focal length is a worry, though!
Might be interesting to ad to the database just for completeness sake: an advertisement with just the barrel of nr. 13002 - all lenses are missing.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GsUAA...GX/s-l1600.jpg
The new owner says it is the no.5 Universelle Portrait with 81mm diameter glass and a measured focal length of 320mm!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Lens edge date was 1874 which is obviously too late for this brass engraved serial number! Marking is correct so the glass lenses must be a replacement from 1874. The cells were in disarray!
Added now to the list (Posting #68).
Hermagis Petzval lens with WHS #15838 and I think it is a 180mm focal lens with f/3.5
EIDOSCOPE 1:4.5 No.2
HERMAGIS PARIS
236798
Hugo's 15938 has been noted.
I havn't been adding the "modern" Hermagis numbers for some time. Unless I am mistaken, these all have lens marks with 2 digits, like "21" for 1921.
The real challenge is to get an idea of the distribution of production over time and the likely "birthdates" of lens without serial numbers or with serial numbers, before lens writing was started.
In addition, of course, to give lens which have lost pencil marks, an age due to proximity of serial number to other known lenses.
Hi Steven, Are you implying my copy of Eidoscope is a "modern" Hermagis? Did Hermagis changed the optical formula for "modern" Eidoscope? My copy does not have the 2 digits. Thanks.
There was no change in the optical design - but the ownership of Hermagis was a bit in doubt around your serial number!
Hermagis had become Hermagis, P.Guillaume & Co. from around 1925 until 1934 when there was a fusion with SOM Berthiot making a large company with Berthiot as the dominant partner! For the first few years, the name Hermagis was continued.
The time scale of Hermagis serial numbers is shown below. Your number is probably from the following year 1935. Later lenses marked SOM Hermagis are believed to have adopted the Berthiot serial number sequence.
The extracts are from the Pont et Princelle booklet on Hermagis from 2009.
Recently picked up two Hermagis portrait lens, both are Petzval type.
SN 17659: (225-Ross-78) in 1878?
SN 18286: (R-21-15-80) in 1880?