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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Pere, certain types of optical glass can be horrendously expensive, and other specialized types will never be made again due to either extreme cost in a diminished market or environmental and workplace restrictions based on hazardous glass ingredients. I'm certain this is behind certain classic Fuji lenses being discontinued quite awhile ago, independent or marketing issues. And to a certain extent, it seems to be specialized glass types that alllow innovation. Aspheric design gets awfully expensive on larger lenses. Of course, you can get almost anything made for a high enough price. But no ordinary photographer has that kind of money. I find it impossible
to believe there's a substantial market for a Fujinon 600 C clone. A few ULF types can use em; but that's an extremely limited market; and a few 8x10 users like me find em useful. And right now there's a temporary glut of decent used ones up for sale, which doesn't forebode any big additional demand at the moment. Maybe they could do like Cooke and announce potential limited runs in advance, with select dealers taking a deposit. But they'd have to establish a reliable reputation first. Keeping shutters in manufacture is the bigger challenge.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
I find it impossible to believe there's a substantial market for a Fujinon 600 C clone.
hmmm... it's an ideal glass for ULF... anybody purchasing a (Shanghai made) ShenHao 7x17", 11x14" or 12x20" may want one...
If there was no demand the beyond $3000 prices for used C 600 units at ebay would not be possible...
If you review a bit the chinese forums (google translate :)) you will see that this glass generated a lot of conversations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
certain types of optical glass can be horrendously expensive,
Yes... but regular LF glasses relied many times in quasi-simetry for accurate corrections, few included ED glass, like Sironar S or Nikkor T, and probably only in the front element (I guess). Many designs use affordable glass, another thing was retail price...
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Pere, I hate to brake your enthusiasm, but get back on the Earth. It's not that every 2nd Chinese family wants to purchase the 600C lens for their domestic ULF camera. With used Copal shutters the production must be very limited, even more without them. Even if Fujinon were still producing them, do you really think they would be submerged by the Chinese demand? In that case they would gladly produce them for their Chinese brothers and even sisters in business for the original price of 600 $ I bought it for...
The Chinese production of this lens is surely not a sure sign of an ULF revolution in the Chinese mass photography. Don't fool yourself in that regard.
As you would say - just MHO. :)
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pfsor
but get back on the Earth
Pfsor, I've no clue about if they are to sell 10, 50 or 200... what is true is that they are offering new C 600 copies, and want it or not these are remarkable news in today's LF situation.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Just sleep over it... It'll will seem less remarkable tomorrow...:)
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pere Casals
Pfsor, I've no clue about if they are to sell 10, 50 or 200... what is true is that they are offering new C 600 copies, and want it or not these are remarkable news in today's LF situation.
As an ULF user, I, too, am interested in this lens. I’ve had absolutely no issues dealing with Chinese camera makers, so would welcome their efforts with this (and potentially other) homage lenses.
And I don’t really care what the sideline keyboard warriors/provocators say about this lens, nor the state of Chinese usage. (FWIW, I’m sure that Ilford would be well positioned to comment on this usage). The proof will be in the images it produces.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
This kind of mfg is not like some small family cabinet shop making cameras. So if you don't care about statistical risks, Lachlan, you're welcome to put your own money on the line and find out the facts. Maybe you could arrange a hands-on, no-risk trial of the product. That still wouldn't answer the question of serial quality control or just how similar or not it might be to the real Fuji lens. I'd rather see an optical engineer do the assessment. But a potential user has a valid angle of opinion too, at least of "good enough".
But how can I say anything specific about such a lens? I've never seen one, shot one. Has anyone??? That's the whole problem.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
For those interested, this is a direct posting of one "sample image" from the lens, taken direct from that Chinese forum. I'm not entirely sure what format he shot this on but surely the field of view seems like 8x10 or larger. Click the thumbnail to open up a larger image:
http://i6.xitek.com/forum/pics/20180...1536837883.jpg
Of course, one can say that this small scan doesn't show much, and you could even say, perhaps this image is "faked." But it's something.
Personally, I'm not much of a long-lens guy, but if a 600mm that I could use on my 8x20 dropped in my lap, I'd happily take it. At the price w/o a shutter (I have a spare Copal 3) it's still way more than I would drop on a long lens, especially when there are other lenses in that focal length that would probably work just fine.
Now if they made a cheaper 210mm SSXL......
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
How does any viewer-reader know for certain with direct verification of factual proof these sample images were made by the lens in question?
Beyond this, what are allowable production variations and consistency from lens to lens.
Not that difficult to have classic lens formulations produced today, it is more a matter of funding and market demand at a given price point. It is much about economy of scales and profitability.
Bernice
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Perhaps someone will contact and discuss the lens with the retailer mentioned in post #2. In fact, I believe someone affiliated with them still posts gear in the classifieds.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
This kind of mfg is not like some small family cabinet shop making cameras. So if you don't care about statistical risks, Lachlan, you're welcome to put your own money on the line and find out the facts. Maybe you could arrange a hands-on, no-risk trial of the product. That still wouldn't answer the question of serial quality control or just how similar or not it might be to the real Fuji lens. I'd rather see an optical engineer do the assessment. But a potential user has a valid angle of opinion too, at least of "good enough".
But how can I say anything specific about such a lens? I've never seen one, shot one. Has anyone??? That's the whole problem.
I have never had a “trial” lens.
Every single lens I have ever owned has been purchased without shooting it. Every one.
Why would this be any different? Life is. Leap of faith. Lenses are such a small subsection of life that I don’t worry about it.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
I have no concrete numbers, but from living in China for the past decade, I can say that LF and ULF is very much alive and thriving here. A local friend that I shoot with has more ULF brass lenses that I can count and multiple cameras from 4x5 to 24x24. He claims that his collection is small compared to many here. Take that as you will.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Luckily, I owns the S600 to compare with Fuji A600 and Goerz Dagor 600mm together.
This is the 1st picture with the S600 lens in Shanghai.
Sinar P 8x10
Shanghai GP3
Attachment 185119
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
This is the 2nd picture which I shooted in Suzhou two months ago.
Sinar P 8x10
Shanghai GP3
Attachment 185120
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
I shooted these 2 pictures last monday. One was by S600. Another was A600. However I couldn't identify them out because they had been disordered between the developing.
Same aperture setting, same shutter speed, same developing
Sinar P 8x10
Shanghai GP3
Attachment 185121
Attachment 185122
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4 Attachment(s)
Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
On my opinion, S600 is different from Fuji C600 although they’re all 4C4G. C600's glasses had two plane surfuces, but all 8 surfuces of S600 are curved. And the image circle of S600 is ≥680mm, much more larger than C600.
There are some technical data of S600.
Attachment 185123Attachment 185124Attachment 185125Attachment 185126
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pierre506
C600's glasses had two plane surfuces, but all 8 surfuces of S600 are curved.
This points that's not a clone but a derived design...
Flat surfaces are cheaper to make, so the S600 design may be an improvement. Today cad design makes design changes easy.
Graphs look fine for that circle.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pierre506
This is the 2nd picture which I shooted in Suzhou two months ago.
Sinar P 8x10
Shanghai GP3
Attachment 185120
Seems to resolve well, even though the images are reduced to a significant degree.
The mobile phone tower’s antennae are well defined.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lachlan 717
Seems to resolve well, even though the images are reduced to a significant degree.
The mobile phone tower’s antennae are well defined.
Yes, I tried to upload the larger files but failed.
通过我的 MHA-AL00 上的 Tapatalk发言
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pierre506
Yes, I tried to upload the larger files but failed.
通过我的 MHA-AL00 上的 Tapatalk发言
Just upload a tinny crop of the antennae...
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Good news!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue4130
I have no concrete numbers, but from living in China for the past decade, I can say that LF and ULF is very much alive and thriving here. A local friend that I shoot with has more ULF brass lenses that I can count and multiple cameras from 4x5 to 24x24. He claims that his collection is small compared to many here. Take that as you will.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
I want one!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pierre506
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pierre506
Pierre, I'm sure it can perform way better that what the crop suggests, the crop shows only like in a 50cm high enlargement.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
add atmospheric distortion/air quality
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pere Casals
Pierre, I'm sure it can perform way better that what the crop suggests, the crop shows only like in a 50cm high enlargement.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Randy Moe
add atmospheric distortion/air quality
So it's not a good sample about what the lens can do...
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pere Casals
Pierre, I'm sure it can perform way better that what the crop suggests, the crop shows only like in a 50cm high enlargement.
it's haze that day and there's very dusty because of the dismantling of the site。
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Obviously, and there are several technical issues between capture and our little screen.
Nonetheless I do like to try new things.
Always a first adopter, even in retroland.
You and Drew will endlessly pontificate, we will read some of it, but most blurs.
Life is too short to quibble...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pere Casals
So it's not a good sample about what the lens can do...
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
I can see that and I have terrible sight, not vision...:cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pierre506
it's haze that day and there's very dusty because of the dismantling of the site。
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Wow. This thread really took off after I left yesterday.
Now I'm even more curious than before. Maybe next spring it'll be time for a new lens for my 11x14.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Corran
I'm not entirely sure what format he shot this on but surely the field of view seems like 8x10 or larger. Click the thumbnail to open up a larger image:
http://i6.xitek.com/forum/pics/20180...1536837883.jpg
Of course, one can say that this small scan doesn't show much, and you could even say, perhaps this image is "faked." But it's something.
Personally, I'm not much of a long-lens guy, but if a 600mm that I could use on my 8x20 dropped in my lap, I'd happily take it. At the price w/o a shutter (I have a spare Copal 3) it's still way more than I would drop on a long lens, especially when there are other lenses in that focal length that would probably work just fine.
Now if they made a cheaper 210mm SSXL......
I asked the photographer. It's 8x10.
通过我的 MHA-AL00 上的 Tapatalk发言
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Well, my own C600 was purchased for immaculate 8x10 color enlargements onto 30x40 inch gloss polyester prints (Ciba or Fuji Supergloss), which it does well, so a postage-stamp sized web posting tells me zero. Hopefully someone will revisit this thread after some brass tacks experience with the lens in question.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Show us your brass tack sharp masterpieces...
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
so a postage-stamp sized web posting tells me zero. Hopefully someone will revisit this thread after some brass tacks experience with the lens in question.
I don't have C600 to compare. But we have to communicate with those shitty pictures on internet.
I believe it's the only way we could share something on the virtual world.
通过我的 MHA-AL00 上的 Tapatalk发言
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Ignore the Internet. If I was spending the money, I'd want to see at least one real sheet of high-resolution film. If they can ship a lens, they can mail an exposure sample! I played hard ball for several decades with manufacturers. After awhile they respect you for that if they're legit.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
Ignore the Internet. If I was spending the money, I'd want to see at least one real sheet of high-resolution film. If they can ship a lens, they can mail an exposure sample! I played hard ball for several decades with manufacturers. After awhile they respect you for that if they're legit.
Are you sure that you could see at least one real sheet of high-resolution film before you bought every single lens on the internet or a real photographic shop? And every seller on the internet would be very pleased to mail you an Exposure sample before every lens' deal?
You must be a very high renown senior expert and buyer.
I don't have any query about your position, Drew.
I learnt.
通过我的 MHA-AL00 上的 Tapatalk发言
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
There was a time when film was the photographic means, view camera lenses sold by reputable dealers allowed trial time and right of refusal to return and no internet.
Optics-lens performance was judges-evaluated on a LOT more than just resolution or how "sharp" a given lens-optic was, from overall color balance, contrast rendition, overall visual nuances and more were part of the evaluation process.
Film image quality was taken very seriously by image makers that made their livelihood on their work... and it was far more than the technical aspects of the images they produced. IMO, this is much in the past today.
So much "hay" has been put into this optic design reproduction, one needs to ask why. If a Fujinon C600 is the lens of choice, they can be had at a price, get a good example and move on. It seems the "hay" over this repo C600 is the appeal of something new over something proven good.
Bernice
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Every single lens I use came from one of the "big four" and already had a stellar reputation. But if you're the new kid on the block and want to get your foot in the door, it takes the ability to go the extra mile. I'm retired now, but my job as a professional buyer involved tools and equipment. At first, Japan had a bad reputation just like China does now. There was an obscure elec motor company nobody had heard of called Makita. The trouble they went through to get us to be the first retailer in the US was amazing. I got to know the CEO and key engineers on a first name basis. Much later, when Festool was seeking a significantly larger footprint in the US, same thing. It also happened when we were handling industrial coating. I have no problem hunting down a head chemist or key engineer to get factual answers. I rarely trust marketing types. Of course, after time, some companies just want to coast on a reputation they no longer deserve, and forget who and what gave them momentum in the first place. With a botique lens maker, it should be evensimpler to get answers. If not, they probably won't be around long anyway. Yes, in my career role I spent serious money. But when I needed a small item on a limited budget from what was formerly the largest optical coating plant in the world, I got incredible service from a key individual. That's what made them so successful. Big customers themselves generally start out as small customers, and even as a pro buyer with a big budget, I always tested suppliers with small token orders first.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
At first, Japan had a bad reputation just like China does now.
Drew, your evaluation is a bit outdated.
Your iPhone is made in China... Today there are many products made there with good reputation, also from chinese brands. Of course you may find low end products from there, but also you have exellent products.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Not outdated whatsoever, Pere. I've been retired less than two years and was right in the trenches till the very end. I frequently visit my ole company. Counterfeiting is a bigger problem than ever. Consumer electronics are something you think might be over the hurdle, but just look at recent incidents where certain categories have caught fire! When it comes to metallurgy, they're way behind even Taiwan. The biggest problem is how mass-marketers, like "big box" chains here, DEMAND low-quality disposable products, and really don't care if patents are violated. Of course, that's unlikely to affect niche items like a large-format lens - not the kind of thing WalMart or Home Depot is ever going to carry! But one of the reasons I'd like to find a classic 70's Zeiss research microscope like I used as a student back then, is the quality of the machining. Sure, today the Chinese can mass-produce microscopes with highly effective optics at far more reasonable pricing. But the quality of the machining and alloys is well below the vintage units; and in that respect, they're neither as durable nor precise. The same could be said for everything from table saws to enlargers, e.g., you're never going to see something like a Commercial Durst 138 made again because the cost of labor and materials would be too high. And back to my previous post about Makita - they do make their lower-quality home center items in places like China and Brazil, along with certain mid-level items that can be highly robotized (they go to China for cheap land, not for the cheap labor). But all their industrial and aerospace items are
made in their plants in Japan, the US, and Germany; and completely different engineers are involved. I could cite numerous analogous examples. Since lensboards cost relatively little, that's one category I've personally gambled on. The Chinese lensboards that came from Bromwell were fine; certain other brands proved worthless. The local camera shop sells Chinese step rings. I can't even handle them because the black rubs off - they aren't even anodized! But with a glut of good used LF lenses out there at low prices, I'd have to think twice about purchasing any new brand I wasn't familiar with, or even any older lens from a minor brand like Congo, which had a reputation for inconsistency.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
I recently purchased the only lens I've ever bought new. My Cooke triple convertible. I can shoot three focal lengths even up to 650 mm with the single component. Legendary optics and machining and I had no problem paying the price for this multi coated respected lens. I'd go this route. Just my .02 on the subject.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
It seems unfair to automatically assume that the people creating this lens are low quality or don't care about IP.
A good example of a relatively recent Chinese startup that has embodied both workmanship and quality is Venus Optics for 35mm format:
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/the-ma...2-0-zero-d-fe/
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/mr-li-...ture-of-laowa/
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Excellent rebuttal with fantastic story in the links.
I really like the frog analogy and the last sentence in the first link.
Makes me hopeful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MAubrey
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Much more useful than this quibbling would be to hear an actual witness of the quality of this lens. I've heard (was it on this forum or elsewhere?) that there are tons of LF or even ULF users in China - isn't there anyone who would find its way to this forum to proudly announce its personal testimony about the lens? Not even one who uses this lens? Did they all go underground with their knowledge? Isn't there anyone from our Chinese members who could bring us the news? I wonder.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
The problem with that, Pfor, is that a lot of ULF folks make rather, er, ...(trying not to offend anyone), creative rather than crisp shots which objectively present the capability of the lens. And this would have to be done on an optical bench basis rather than using a conventional film holder in which the film tends to sag. In other words, the capability of the lens itself has to be isolated from other variables. But since there's a used on up for sale at Catlabs, somebody must have tried it first, and it could be backtracked that way. But one or two lens users out there somewhere (maybe) does not equal the manifold testimonial of Fuji 600C users.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Let us not despair - there are more than 1b of people in China.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jim Fitzgerald
I recently purchased the only lens I've ever bought new. My Cooke triple convertible. I can shoot three focal lengths even up to 650 mm with the single component. Legendary optics and machining and I had no problem paying the price for this multi coated respected lens. I'd go this route. Just my .02 on the subject.
Yup, Jim, it's the safer way.
通过我的 MHA-AL00 上的 Tapatalk发言
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Yeah Pfsor, but I have the advantage of a wife with a degree in Chinese literature, who has lived there. She could translate that site. But if I even mentioned the term "lens" to her, I'd be in a lot of trouble. We have an agreement - if I want a new lens, I have to sell an old one first.
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
Yeah Pfsor, but I have the advantage of a wife with a degree in Chinese literature, who has lived there. She could translate that site. But if I even mentioned the term "lens" to her, I'd be in a lot of trouble. We have an agreement - if I want a new lens, I have to sell an old one first.
But you'd be safe, then, right? You don't want a new lens yet. ;)
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Re: Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm )
Hurry up, Drew! Sell all you have to get to the bottom of it all! :) (And tell us the truth about the lens after....)