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Hallo all,
Although there is some information on the HERMAGIS serial numbers with matching year of production I need your help.
I found that mentioned list isn't very accurate so I need your input.
If you own a Hermagis, would you be so kind and have a look if there is written any year on the front glass?
Like this one: Attachment 100876Attachment 100877
If so, please post the serial number and year of production.
Thanks for the help.
Alex
here are a few other:
13240 1867
14659 1868
16723 1876
Do you have Corrado's list?
He gives exact dates for quite a lot which may mean the front glass has been looked at!
Remember the Franco-Prussian war which would slowed down production around 1870/71.
13657 1868
15505 1872
15512 1873
16784 1876
16944 1876
Past auctions (Breker etc) will give some more.
Thanks Steven.
I haven't checked Corrado's list yet but I will do so.
I assume your first lens is a typo...;)
Alex
Here as some of mine:
14098 - 1868
15067 - 1872
18702 - 1883
13995 - 1867
44064 - 1907 (? as it only writes 07 in the end of a serial number)
8077 - ? no year written
Thank you all.
Just great.
Keep them coming. This indicates that the list needs some fine tuning.....
It already shows, quite clearly, that the pencil date is to be believed.
Yes 1869 - this is Corrado's listing, I don't own a single Hermagis!
Breker doesn't have any that I can find.
When I get home today I'll see if I can get the front glass out of my #1. It is the brass F5 one. I'm thinking it is from the 20's.
Thankfully, Hermagis was pretty consistent with using a date, and keeping the serial numbers in sequence for decades.
Here is mine:
46028 and year 08 which is in agreament with Patrice H. Pont and Jean Loup Princelle's book, which gives number 35000 for year 1900 and number 50000 for year 1910.
Marko
Hermagis Eidoscope #1, f5 #95,567 marked Hermagis Paris Eidoscope 24 on the rear glass.
eidoscope
3 F5
68363 with 20 written on glass
Here's mine:
SN 15,744 1873
Brass Eidoscope #3, f5
58,002 with Hermagis Eidoscope #3 1920 written on front glass and same inscription repeated on the rear glass
Black Eidoscope #4, f5
146,607 with Hermagis Eidoscope #4-29 written on front glass
15,971 = 1874
Two posts above lists 15,744 as 1873 so we can assume that 15,744 is likley from the very end of '73 and that serial # 15,971 is from early '74. It also shows they were making Petzvals at a fairly good clip at this point.
Dan
Taking delivery of serial no. 7242, which was originally a Convertible Petzval, I note a distinct variation from the numbers and signature styles already listed here. They are below. They were both on the achromat (2 numbers) and the thick concave (1 number).
While checking the other earlier serial numbered Hermagis I find mine is the lowest number. There are 8xxx, 9xxx, 10xxx etc. It looks to me like Hermagis decided to start engraving numbers and decided to start at what they considered to accumulated numbers made to that date (or at a number that customers could accept as being realistic!). I see no connection with dates, but perhaps it relates to the single lens going into the Petzval or an internal stockbook of parts. The numbers are:
209,67. and
14015
By the way, this is a pre-WHS model and the text is written "upside down" compared with other versions of this lens and the signs of the radial drive attachment have been completely removed when a later WHS was made in the sleeve.
I think the odd third number in Gandolfi first list could be using the same system, especialy if it is an early one with no serial number or low number.
As I have something of a fetish/obsession about serial numbers and dates, I thought I might take up this thread again and see whether it is possible to make a reliable table.
The booklet from Pont et Princelle (2009) says that earliest serial number (engraved on brass) they know of is 3,670. Whether the earlier lenses without serial numbers represent just Hermagis or Hermagis + Wallet et Hermagis + Derogy et Hermagis, is an open question.
P et P give the following rough table.
+/- 8000 +/- 1860
12000. 1870
20000. 1890
35000. 1900
50000. 1910
65000. 1920
100000. 1925
130000. 1926
150000. 1928
200000. 1932
220000. 1934
We can easily improve on this with data we already have!
The reason I have awoken this thread is that I have just bought this CdeV Hermagis Petzval.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2225252426...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
This is, apparently, without a serial number (on the sleeve, anyway!) and has an undescribed (as far as I can find out) front washer aperture insert.
Steven, If it helps my #1 is 73982 which puts in in the 1921-22 range. I'll have to check my #2.
This posting originally (until March 2022) contained a first list of serial numbers.
A new series was started in post #68 which developed this list.
Because this “old” series was sometimes found by searches, thereby giving a less than recently updated serial number list, I decided to remove it.
Hi Steven, thankyou for the info on my lens 18635 Convertible Petzval, it has (15 & 30-80) inscribed on the element opposite Hermagis oi' Paris if that helps
I will adding a new one soon. Thanks for yours too, Andrew!!
I'll start a new list soon based on the other digit markings (Typically, xxxxx. xxxx - xxx). I think it must have something to do with the model/size/focal length - so it may be without a solution unless we are very lucky. For instance, data from two identical lenses.
I have updated the Hermagis serial number list. Post #20.
There are some surprising gaps, apart from the Franco-Prussian conflict period.
I have now looked at the pre serial number engraving Hermagis Plain Petzval which looks absolutely kosher.
The engraving and position is exactly the same as 7274, just without the serial number. The lens edges are signed Hermagis and there is a single clue "12 cent".
A bit off the theme in this thread, it has a special front insert for the lens hood for washer stops. With velvet seals inside the lens hood. Most of these must have been thrown away when they were converted to WHS.
Thank Steven for all tbe work!!
Regarding to your new Hermagis.
Are you sure it's something originally made by Hermagis?
I have never seen it before.
I am absolutely certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by alex from holland
The internal fitting washer stop holder is obviously professionally made and fits perfectly in the brass hood.
Hermagis were mostly busy with their patent "double ended" convertible at this time (say, 1856-1860) and production of "normal" Petzvals was quite small.
If you look at page 6 in P et P, you will see a selection of these simple Petzvals. None are particularly early except "3,670" - which I am convinced is a misreading of 8,670! Mine is an exact match for size 7, both focal length and diameter of the lens (61mm). No lens hood washer units are shown, but this could almost be expected as they all have WHS, except 9,305.
It is not a unique system - the generous seller (a member here!) has a much bigger Hermagis with exactly the same insert!
I thought I would show the barrel engraving found on the very early Hermagis Convertibles. One is shown in the P et P booklet. Mine is a little earlier and they found time enough to write the Parisienne address. Unlike many other Paris makers, Hermagis didn't often mention their address!
Note the twin screws holding the end of the rack. These are repeated at the other end of the barrel.
One important date is known about early Hermagis production - the date of the converible patent was July 1856. The two earliest convertibles registered in this thread have this patent engraved, which means they must be after this date. My gut feeling is that the patent date coincides with the start of serial number engraving on sleeves and barrels. Lens marking came much later.
This one
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BIG-BRASS-...vip=true&rt=nc
could be an early Hermagis serial no. 4307.
The rear and front cells have been assembled wrongly.
I base my case on:
- the very heavy duty rack is cut away near the lens cells. This identical in appearance to the earliest Hermagis I have.
- the use of double screws to secure the rack to the barrel at both ends. I have only ever seen this on early Hermagis lenses.
- the general appearance is not in conflict with Hermagis early brass.
- The lens diameter is 81 mm which matches one of Hermagis standard Petzval sizes.
- marking the barrel, rather than the sleeve, was done in connection with "monture universelle". The hood assembly, which would shed light on this, is unfortunately absent.
- the serial number is a number which is realistic considering the "known" numbers.
What does the glass edge writing say.
It is, unfortunately, not my purchase!
I don't believe this ever sold as a Hermagis. The rough numbering and the slightly out of true rack screws suggest it might have been a construction attempt that never found its way out of the workshop for retail sale.
-
This was the deep brass insert in the lens hood which had room for different washer stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by alex from holland
There is a Lerebours listed (July 2017) which has exactly the same system. Quite a lot smarter than the heavy pillbox system. Given up quite quickly as WH stops became universal!
I have acquired ($60 ... ) a convertible Hermagis Petzval where only the front element survived and the latter is perma-mounted in the rear to be used as a landscape lens. 61mm diameter lens makes this a No7
Lens cell is not removable I'm afraid at this point in time, all my efforts so far were in vain.
Serial number on the lens is 12,651
There is writing on the inside and I can make out 166 759 but the last three digits are a guess as top/bottom is obsured ... I really need to get this lens set out to ascertain.
I'll follow up when I succeed ...
Cheers,
Adding another number to this list
14,444 - 1868, in line with the other data so far.
Convertible Petzval
EDIT
The owner indicates this lens also has 20fe written on the lens which I interpret as Février 20 ... as good as any other guess ...
This lens reads Hermagis opticien rather than Hermagis à paris
Cheers,
I'm looking for an "old" Hermagis convertible Petzval and adding what I find to this list
Convertible Petzval
12,782 - confirmed nothing that can construe a date on the glass edge.
EDIT
The owner of the 12,782 lens checked the numbers on the elements per my request and this is his response:
"At the front lens it says also "Hermagis à Paris" and the number is 637-661.. Same number as yours. Probably a number for the works to keep track of which belonged to which probably!?
Let me know what you think. At the rear it also says "Hermagis à Paris" and number 696-469."
Maybe it is a lot number but I have a sneaky suspicion it may also be the focal length of the individual elements. Will run the math to see if this is possible but it would be great to have access to a catalog page of Hermagis with the different Petzval models they were making at the time.
Cheers,
I have a 46559, Petzval Portrait type, with year of production written on front lens border as 09. I was told that this is 1909. Pictures in this thread: http://www.largeformatphotography.in...zval-lens-info
It is surprising that so few have lost their edge markings! Most of the older lenses must have had their Balsam changed at least once. I have done over 10 balsam "operations" with pencil/ink marked lenses - they fade a little, but are still readable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amedeus
But perhaps there are just focal lengths/stock numbers on the lens edge on yours?
I have updated with the new data and moved the probable start of date edge writing in post #20 as yours is the highest number without a date!
The 12,782 definitely has no markings, I don't own the lens but the seller has taken images of the glass and there's nothing there ... he's also very knowledgeable ...
The 12,651 is indeed mine and I still was not able to get the cell out of the rear. The rear either contains the front achromat or the positive of the rear cell only ... I don't see any balsam separation, so it could be the latter ... I will get it open though,
just have to move on to more aggressive methods as I would like to read whatever is left of the full text rather than reflected, upside down and obscured ... hahaha ...
EDIT:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Got the now confirmed front cell open from serial 12,651, couldn't see any balsam separation as it was all nicely hidden behind the rim.
Lens reads "Hermagis à Paris" followed with the number 637-661. I determined the focal length of the achromat to be 379mm (14"15/16), no relation to either one of the numbers. I feel strongly though that given enough numbers collected from lenses we can crack this code also. As Steven and others have indicated, either lot numbers, focal length numbers, stock location parts etc.
Convertible Petzval engraved "Hermagis Opt. en Fab. nt - Brevere s.g.d.g - Paris". The serial number is 6872 many digits but nothing that makes up a date on the rim of the glass according to previous owner (lens just got sold).
In line with previous observations although it would be worthwhile to know what the digits are. There's a reason for them ;-)
Cheers,
Attachment 172257
Added to the #20 posting!
This is second earliest (confirmed) serial number!
There are quite a lot of serial numbers now and there are some conclusions:
Serial numbers on barrels/sleeves started at the same time that the Convertible was introduced. Production of ordinary Petzvals was virtually given up the first few years. The recorded 3xxx engraved number (P et P) is likely a misreading of 8xxx. The Franko-Prussian conflict is easily seen in the serial number and date gaps. Looks like about two years of no production.
The numbers written seem to represent different identification systems at different periods. They differ between lenses in the same Petzval. Some could be focal length, but others look more like stock reference numbers!
Added more info and detail in post #29, #33 and #34
Added info in post #30 of the owner of lens 12,782
My guess is that the numbers 637-661 on the front achromat (same as my lens that unfortunately lost its rear) possible relate to the focal lengths of the individual elements (thanks Tracy Storer) and the same for the rear elements keeping in mind that at one of them is negative.
Will need to run some math to verify if the above hypothesis is plausible in light of tolerances and measurements.
I've seen few Darlot lenses were the focal length of the group was mentioned in pencil on the edge.
EDIT
I've run the 637-661 and 696-469 numbers through some basic lens math and arrive a a total calculated focal length of 235mm with an assumed spacing of 100mm between front and rear group and a spacing of 4mm between the two elements of the rear group. Not totally impossible numbers in light of tolerances and my assumed boundary conditions. We'll need more of these numbers from other convertible petzvals to verify if there's merit to this hypothesis.
Cheers
In the hope of getting more early lens data, I have purchased another early no serial number plain Petzval. The announced size corresponds well to Hermagis size 9, which is the larger medaillon size.
I think I forgot to mention that the first no serial number I got with the lens hood insert deep washer stops, has a rather nice velvet seal. I wonder if the new one still has a similar?
I also asked in the other thread but have you measured the focal length of this lens ?Quote:
Originally Posted by lungovw
Thanks,
Well this "no serial number" arrived to-day, so I have had to change my plans for to-day. 18 hours from Austria to Denmark - obviously no Christmas rush yet!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
It is, as expected Hermagis size 9 Petzval for Medaillon and 9x12cm. The brasswork is, in everyway, identical to the other early no. 7 I have. The internal baffle has been removed and the light insulating blackened paper strip has been removed, but it is easy to see where it has been.
There are plenty of paired numbers on both the usual lenses and a double pair on the achromat. I think there is a good deal of "assembly" logic in writing actual focal lengths on lenses or combinations (Rear pairs). I am sure they could grind and polish accurately, they had to work with glass that must have had some variation in refractive index.
The numbers on photo 2 are from the rear pair, whilst the two sets on photos 3 and 4 are both from the Achromat.
The future project in "nailing the lens markings" could be a separate thread?
Looking at these numbers, no focal length combination that could work to come up with a total focal length that is reasonable in light of the size of the lens, so yes, this will need a separate thread ... the two digit numbers are killing that thought for now ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Cheers,
The only figure which I could make sense of was the 209 - which appears twice on the achromat. The measured focal length of the achromat is around 209mm. Working back from published and actual total length of the combined lens (120mm) provides a figure for the focal length of the rear pair - but the figure doesn't match up with any of the other numbers.
I havn't found the blacking paper on any of my other Hermagises (to cover the clear gap between rack and barrel cut out) so they seem to worked out a better system after around 1855.
Strange, the same day that I suggested that internal blacking paper is associated with the early pre serial numbers, I find another one!
This was on ebay in october/november. Incomplete - missing the lens hood and the rear lens cell. The missing cell gave a good view of the bare brass, where the paper had been and the still mounted internal baffle showing where the paper strip had been.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-H...97.m4902.l9144
I just checked my incomplete 12,651 and there is indeed clear evidence on both halves of the brass barrel that there was a covering over the rack. The brass there is bare. The 8,154 is just received doesn't have any sign of paper but there's solder covering the gaps. This could have very well been a post-production fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Cheers,
The 8154 is a convertible Petzval after all, the racks are screwed together. Hood is gone, no flange. Glass is 105mm in diameter, a #3 in the series with a supposedly 450mm focal length, f4.2.
After some struggle to get the cells open, I found the front achromat only bearing the inscription "Hermagis", absolutely nothing else. (No separation whatsoever)
The rear was assembled incorrectly but the rear negative lens bears following in pencil, although at times hard to read as the upper half of the text had a lot of damage (tight fit in the cell)
"Hermagis - Opticien Breveté - Rue Rambuteau 18 - Paris"
Followed in what appears to be capitals "GCC" or "OCC" (faint) and then what I thought was 1819 but the second 1 is different than the first 1 and could be a squiggly 5 ... the 9 is better to see in person after rotating and changing the light ... the image below is not the best iPhone shot either ...
Attachment 172683
So possibly 1859 and not totally out of line with the notion that 8,000 is around 1860. We need some more lenses in the same serial number range to confirm. We by now know that the information on the lens rims changed from time to time and nothing can be assumed.
As for focal lengths ... the front achromat is ~673mm, the rear cell is ~1,000mm and the calculated FL should be 453 with a ~190mm between cells. Measured FL is ~447mm so all is according to the catalog.
Both front cells have a Roman VI stamped in them, most likely to keep them together.
Cheers,
I don't think I have seen stamped roman numerals before. The ones I have have scratched ones and indicate which male/female threads are a best fit (hand cut threads!).
Yes, I would guess it was a convertible as Hermagis don't appear to have made anything else for the first period after 1857.
Have added to the #20 list.
Address information is unique, I think.
Perhaps a new member of staff, recruited from Jamin who did this sort of thing! Hermagis was in a growth period!
Later: We all appeared to have missed an earlier thread with some interesting data.
Alex has (had?) a plain Petzval with lens writing of "1856" and had the Rambuteau address-no serial number. Must been one the last before Convertible production took over.
http://collodion-art.blogspot.dk/201...t-bievres.html
Here is the previous thread link.
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...-Hermagis-lens
The other lens described by Vitaly is interesting as it appears to have the size written on both lenses! he says the lens diameter is 80mm and focal length is 11" with a 3" on both lenses. Size 5 has a focal length of 240mm, glass diameter of 81 (unmounted) or 3 pouce (french inches). So perhaps we should be looking for "lignes et pouce" rather napoleonic cm and mm?
Could be deeply carved roman numerals rather than stamped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Very similar address writing on the 8154 except for "Breveté" after Opticien and a few added characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Great observation, lignes, pouce and cm/mm could be indeed used interchangeably based on who was doing the writing or what needed to be done to separate the work in progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
Cheers,
I have two petzval type portrait lenses.
objectifs a portraits no.6, 57620, 1917
extra rapides pour portraits no.4, 65758, 1920
and an eidoscope no.2, 41650, 1907
I just realize that I bought this lens from the buyer at Steven's link below ... supporting the upcycling economy ... (reconfiguring the lenses and polishing it up ... )
The rear lens cell from this is marked Jamin in pencil, no further markings anywhere else.
Both front and rear cell have a roman III stamped/cut in them.
Hood as we know is missing but I'm very tempted to recreate the hood in black anodized aluminum, matter of keeping history and modern age restorations separated.
I'll be shooting with this lens soon, that's in the end the purpose after all ;-)
Cheers,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tribe
here is mine
SN 9335 convertible petzval
height 215 mm
front lens diameter 80 mm