New development technique ?

[chris_4622]

I need to change my method of developing film so I can make my way through 400 sheets of film faster than 3 tubes (rotary) at a time. Fp4+ in Pyrocat Hd.

I'm thinking of using tubes with no end caps, band them together and process vertically. Is there an agitation schedule guideline using this method? What are the drawbacks to this method?

Thanks

[Ken Lee]

You might find this article helpful: Plastic Storage Containers for Sheet Film Development (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/devtray.php). I routinely develop 20 or more negatives at a time.

Using an Infra Red viewing device (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/index.php#Monocular) also helps enormously.

[Jac@stafford.net]

If it stops raining in time, I can supply a photo of a commercial drum processing tube that does 24 sheets (or less - it is extensible) of 4x5 at a time. It uses spirals something like the Nikor tank but in plastic and less complex.

(no way to photograph indoors right now.)

[Doremus Scudder]

The traditional high-volume film-developing set-up was large nitrogen-burst tanks and film on hangers. There are still some of these out there on the market and many still in use. One could, theoretically do hundreds of sheets in a session.

Large dip-and-dunk tanks with hangers would be next in line for volume processing, followed by tray processing.

Best,

Doremus

[jnantz]

processing a huge amount all at once is the easy part
finding space to hang them to dry might be a problem.

i have a large ( 6x4x3 ? ) storage closet purchased at
a big box hardware store i modified to take lots of film.
you might look into something like that before you are
negative-rich, space poor.

have fun !
john

[Randy]

In my days as a USAF photographer we used, I believe, 3.5 gallon stainless steel tanks with hangers (four sheets of 4X5 per hanger) probably 12-14 hangers per run, maybe more...I can't remember exactly. I have run 18-20 sheets of 4X5 in 8X10 trays for my personal work. Not fun, but can be done.

[Jac@stafford.net]

In my days as a USAF photographer.

RAF Upper Heyford air recon here. Huge rolls of 11 inch film. :)

[Doremus Scudder]

FWIW, I manage to crank out about 50 sheets in a four hour session with tray processing. As jnanian points out, the bottleneck is drying space.

I often return from "photo safari" with 100+ negatives and manage to get through these in a couple of days, three at the most, in roughly four-hour sessions. That's how long it takes me to get 48 sheets or so through the washer and things hung up to dry, and about the limit of my drying area. Besides that, my concentration starts to wane about then and it's better that I take a break from processing rather than make a mistake.

Larger throughput than that would prompt me to get a tank and hanger system.

Best,

Doremus

[welly]

You might find this article helpful: Plastic Storage Containers for Sheet Film Development (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/devtray.php). I routinely develop 20 or more negatives at a time.

Using an Infra Red viewing device (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/index.php#Monocular) also helps enormously.

Ah! Just the link I was looking for. I couldn't remember where I found the excellent resource that is your website previously.

[chris_4622]

I tried Ken's recommendation and it was easy with good results. I tried six for my first batch. The bottle neck for me is in the wash cycle, I have plenty of hangers and space for drying 25 sheets.

One more question- does the development time change using this method?

[Ken Lee]

...does the development time change using this method?

Rotary development proceeds faster because agitation is basically continuous. With "shuffle" agitation, agitation is more intermittent, and varies with the number of sheets and how quickly you can shuffle. As a rule of thumb, one highly competent tester whose recommendations I follow, recommends 15% extra time (http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/times.html).

[chris_4622]

Ken,

Just to check, you only shuffle from the ends of the pack changing each cycle through? It looks like one negative has uneven stain in the sky area so I'm not sure what went wrong.

Thanks for your help.

[sun of sand]

large homemade slosher tray
bathtub
hubl paste
do nothing for days
done

[Ken Lee]

Ken,
Just to check, you only shuffle from the ends of the pack changing each cycle through? It looks like one negative has uneven stain in the sky area so I'm not sure what went wrong.

I'm not sure what you mean. I pull the bottom sheet out, flip it over, put it on the top, and gently push it down to submerge it. I just keep doing that continuously. This way each negative gets pushed into the developer face down and face up, alternatively, over and over again. The process continues in the stop bath and fixer. You never stop shuffling. A moderate pace is all that is required. There is probably a video on Youtube which show this.

If you get uneven development then perhaps two sheets got stuck together early in the process. Presoaking (with shuffling) for a few minutes in water will prevent that. (Even if they stick together in the beginning when immersed in water, it doesn't matter.) Insert each sheet separately.

Using an infra red viewing device makes all of this very easy, and you can watch development proceed.

The tray or tank should be deep, not wide. We want less oxidation and more coverage.

To avoid neck strain, adjust the height of you developing area to your height and arms. When I get home I'll put a picture on my site of the special high-tech device I use for that: plastic seed trays :cool:

[cjbecker]

I'm not sure what you mean. I pull the bottom sheet out, flip it over, put it on the top, and gently push it down to submerge it. I just keep doing that continuously. This way each negative gets pushed into the developer face down and face up, alternatively, over and over again. The process continues in the stop bath and fixer. You never stop shuffling. A moderate pace is all that is required. There is probably a video on Youtube which show this.

If you get uneven development then perhaps two sheets got stuck together early in the process. Presoaking (with shuffling) for a few minutes in water will prevent that. (Even if they stick together in the beginning when immersed in water, it doesn't matter.) Insert each sheet separately.

Using an infra red viewing device makes all of this very easy, and you can watch development proceed.

The tray or tank should be deep, not wide. We want less oxidation and more coverage.

To avoid neck strain, adjust the height of you developing area to your height and arms. When I get home I'll put a picture on my site of the special high-tech device I use for that: plastic seed trays :cool:

Its also much easer if you have a tray with runs and valleys in it. Can't think of a better way to describe it now.

[chris_4622]

On some negatives I'm getting uneven stain. The bottom of this negative shows it on the right side. Other negs from the same batch worked well. Is this a technique issue?89932

[Ken Lee]

Looking at that negative inverted, there appears to be fog on the lower left corner. It's not stain as far as I can tell: it's light striking the film. Note that the clear film edge is also fogged.

One way to isolate the problem (and not waste any more important shots) is to develop an unexposed sheet, right out of the film box. This will tell you if your film is fogged.

Another approach is to load a sheet into the holder and take a photo with the lens cap on. This will tell you if there is a problem with your shooting technique: a leaky bellows or not placing the film into the camera properly, etc.

You can develop both sheets together if you like: just cut a notch in one sheet to identify which one is which. They should both come out completely clear. No need to wash these negatives archivally: once they've been fixed, rinse them off and inspect them.

Also take the camera on a tripod into the darkroom and stick a flashlight into the front of the camera with the bellows extended and a film holder in the back. See if there are any leaks. All it takes is a small pinhole or loosely attached bellow or back, and you'll see the light as it were.

[Ken Lee]

Its also much easer if you have a tray with runs and valleys in it. Can't think of a better way to describe it now.

Standard photo trays have uneven bottoms with small smooth ridges and troughs, so that sheet of film and paper can't get stuck. If they get stuck face down, development can be uneven. If we have to pry them off a flat surface, we can scratch and tear them.

[photonsoup]

You might find this article helpful: Plastic Storage Containers for Sheet Film Development (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/devtray.php). I routinely develop 20 or more negatives at a time.

Using an Infra Red viewing device (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/index.php#Monocular) also helps enormously.


can you use night vision goggles with color film?

[Ken Lee]

I have never tried the IR viewer with color film. I only develop B&W.

[chris_4622]

I checked my camera before going on the trip and it was light tight. I checked it again now and it is still light tight. Since having that problem (with many negs) I went back to using tubes with a presoak. 24 negatives later and not one is showing any problem. I'm attributing it to my technique in tray developing. Thanks for all the help. It will take much longer this way but it will still be shorter than having to go back to Sicily to redo shots.

[chris_4622]

After going back to the tube method I had a few negatives that still showed the irregular stain pattern. I showed a few to a friend and he recommended another time through the fixer. That got rid of the stain.

Time to start printing.