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tgtaylor
10-Feb-2013, 21:18
How do you mix this stuff :confused: Anyone know?

I picked up a 1oz bottle with the idea of treating scratches on 8x10 negatives.

Thanks,

Thomas

Jim Fitzgerald
10-Feb-2013, 22:46
Dilute with a little distilled water. Build up the density to where you need it to be. It is an art to use.

frotog
11-Feb-2013, 07:50
Try to find a copy of the 1944 photo techniques book "Lootens' photographic techniques". They're readily available, non-collectible...http://www.amazon.com/Lootens-Photographic-Enlarging-Print-Quality/dp/B002A3U5DC

Possibly the best description that I've read on how to effectively use Crocein Scarlet.

You will need an eyedropper and several small bottles for different degrees of dilution. Diluted ammonia works well as a dissolving agent and as a removal agent. Start working on the non-emulsion side first. CS is a great tool to put sparkle in highlights and hold back shadows but to remove scratches or dust marks you're better off using opaque.

tgtaylor
11-Feb-2013, 19:46
Thanks for the replys everyone!

I've done some research in CS online and it sounds like amazing stuff indeed. If anyone out there has a copy of the Lootens book and could scan and email me the pertinent pages I'd really apreciate it. The only library's that have it locally are school libraries but I imagine I could get it on an inter-library loan. A used copy is on ebay but it's priced too high.

Thanks,

Thomas

Bill Burk
11-Feb-2013, 20:48
Thanks for the replys everyone!

I've done some research in CS online and it sounds like amazing stuff indeed. If anyone out there has a copy of the Lootens book and could scan and email me the pertinent pages I'd really apreciate it. The only library's that have it locally are school libraries but I imagine I could get it on an inter-library loan. A used copy is on ebay but it's priced too high.

Thanks,

Thomas

There was a copy down at Kaufmann's in San Mateo last time I stopped in... It's half the book, so not that easy to scan.

frotog
12-Feb-2013, 04:58
$2.69 plus $4 shipping at the amazon link above.

Drew Wiley
12-Feb-2013, 09:41
There's nothing to it. It dissolves in water, though I prefer distilled to prevent any hypothetical mineral stain. Test on a scrap
negative, and if necessary make it more dilute. I personally keep on hand a slightly strong red bottle, which is then diluted for use. Build it up slowly, letting each layer dry between coats. It doesn't take long. Any b&w printing manual from the
40"s or 50"s should illustrate the technique. Just use an appropriate watercolor brush. Apply to the base side of the film. It was particularly popular back when smoking a ciggie was supposed to make a portrait sitter look sophisticated, but they didn't want smoke in the studio, so they'd simply dub the cigarette smoke afterward with a few swirl or red dye. Clouds were
also added this way. Their version of Fauxtoshop, which in fact is even easier for some things.

Mark Sampson
12-Feb-2013, 11:15
In the files at the company I used to work for, there were many old negatives (1950s-60s) that had had CS applied. The old-timers there used it to add density to the shadow areas of 8x10 negatives. We had a few jars around, left over from those days, but never used it. Although I might have, if anyone had ever shown me the technique.

Drew Wiley
12-Feb-2013, 11:27
A bottle in dry form with last a lifetime, it seems. It can be removed if necessary. Or anther trick is to register a sheet of frosted mylar and apply the dye to that - it can become a built-in dodging/burning mask for blue sensitive emulsions, capable
of handling details difficult to dodge/burn in a conventional manner. I don' use it often; but it sure can be handy at times.

frotog
12-Feb-2013, 15:19
There's nothing to it. It dissolves in water, though I prefer distilled to prevent any hypothetical mineral stain.

Wrong. It will not dissolve entirely in water. You need to add ammonia to the distilled water to make the concentrate. How do I know? Because I frequently use the stuff, even on small negs. And there is definitely something to it, despite what Drew says. I'll still screw negs up from time to time - it takes rigorous technique to gradually and subtly build tone without visible edge marks. Fortunately, when the inevitable mistake occurs, it'll wash off and you can start all over again.

cowanw
12-Feb-2013, 16:19
here is the gist of Lootens.
Take 6- 2 oz bottles.
Put one oz of water in each of 5 bottles and 640 mg of New Cocceine in bottle five.
Then take 5 drops of bottle 5 and put in the one oz of water in bottle one
10 drops in bottle 2
20 drops in bottle 3
40 drops in bottle 4
In each of the 5 bottles put 5 drops of wetting solution.
Bottle 6 is one oz of 28% ammonia.
You can't go wrong with bottle one as the effect will be minimal, but start with it and gain experience.
The book is well worth it, any edition will do. The eighth (1975) has chapters on colour. The book is a buck at Abe's

tgtaylor
12-Feb-2013, 18:50
Thanks again everyone - especially to frotog for the link. Initially I searched putting the year 1944 in the search and apparently pulled up a first(?) edition that was sale for around $25. Then last night I clicked on the link and pulled up the more reasonable priced editions for sale so I ordered the $2.70 one since it was to be shipped fom Oregon and it's on it way! One of the questions I had was whether or not it really needed 28% ammonia. If so PF sells it for around $10 a bottle.

The 1oz bottle I scored should last a lifetime as Drew said. Apparently the stuff has an indefinite shelf life as long as it is not exposed to high temperature. I found the bottle on the shelf at K&S Photography in Palo Alto so it's been stored in a temperature controlled environment.

Thomas

BTW, the directions I have managed to find on line said to mix 5gm of the powder with one oz of distilled water and a half-drop of the amonia mix into btl #5 and then: in bottle #1 (with 1oz of distilled water and 1/2 drop of ammonia) add 5 drops from btl 5; in Bottle #2, 10 drops from bottle #5.... #3, 20 drops...in #4 40 drops, etc.

cowanw
12-Feb-2013, 19:05
How do you do a half drop?
Anyway, Water works as a wash as well as ammonia but slower.
House hold ammonia works as well but slower than 28%
Ammonia in the mix acts as a wetting agent.

tgtaylor
12-Feb-2013, 20:56
A half drop in 1 oz caused me some pause also but 1 drop in 2 oz is the same as 1/2 drop in 1 oz, and 2 drops in 4 oz is the same as 1/2 drop in 1 oz...and so on. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the book which I am hoping will clarify the mixing and give further insight into its use.

Thomas

Drew Wiley
13-Feb-2013, 09:28
It's not rocket science. I followed the original dilution recommendations myself, but just think of the usable concentrate looking about like a bottle of red food coloring.

tgtaylor
13-Feb-2013, 12:08
Drew,

What are the original dilution recommendations and where did you find them? There are none on the bottle.

Thanks,

Thomas

Drew Wiley
13-Feb-2013, 13:02
I still have the same bottle from years ago. I suspect I took the instuctions from some 1950's Kodak darkroom manual that I
picked up at random at a used bookstore or that I inherited from my Brother. If I have the presence of mind tonite, I'll check it; but I've got a lot going on at the moment. And I'm quite certain I never needed ammonia. I'd smell it if I ever did. Not trying to make a debate about this - suppose it's possible that at some point in time they added a preservative or binder which altered the dilution characteristics. The actual cresosin dye itself is water soluble and is still mfg for other purposes. I start with a thin solution at the edges and build up with more of the same, or stronger, toward the center. But it's not like Rubylith for a hard-edged cutout mask. Just takes a little practice.

Drew Wiley
13-Feb-2013, 13:19
More ... this dye works best if your neg has a little retouching "tooth" to it, like most sheet films. If the back is slippery, just
build it up more thinly and slowly, or as I mentioned before, you can always register a sheet of frosted mylar to the neg and
dye that. A hypothesis (which I'm never going to test) about ammonia/non-ammonia might related to a period when certain
common studio sheet films were on acetate. What I would have done during that era is add a pinch of clear shellac to improve adhesion ... and if Kodak did that, it would explain the need for a little ammonio solvent. But this product was made
for decades and they might have tweaked it a number of times, and could have even substituted different though related
specific dyes. But it is a useful tool.

Sal Santamaura
13-Feb-2013, 13:54
...if your neg has a little retouching "tooth" to it, like most sheet films...I was under the impression that only 320TXP has a retouching coating on the base. Are you referring to the emulsion side?

Drew Wiley
13-Feb-2013, 14:20
No - on the back. Almost all old-school polyester sheet films had it, though it was more prominently advertised with something like Plus-X which was marketed to the portrait and fashion trade. Nowadays on something like TMY and Kodak color neg films you have a surface "improved for scanning" which helps supress Newton rings and incidentally adds retouch tooth if hypothetically needed. Basically, you just want to be cautious with films which feel downright slick on the back, like Tech Pan, Delta 100, ACROS, TMX100, certain lith films, and most 120 films.

tgtaylor
16-Feb-2013, 10:29
here is the gist of Lootens.
Take 6- 2 oz bottles.
Put one oz of water in each of 5 bottles and 640 mg of New Cocceine in bottle five.
Then take 5 drops of bottle 5 and put in the one oz of water in bottle one
10 drops in bottle 2
20 drops in bottle 3
40 drops in bottle 4
In each of the 5 bottles put 5 drops of wetting solution.
Bottle 6 is one oz of 28% ammonia.
You can't go wrong with bottle one as the effect will be minimal, but start with it and gain experience.
The book is well worth it, any edition will do. The eighth (1975) has chapters on colour. The book is a buck at Abe's

According to my 7th edition, this is correct except that the book specifies 10 grains (648mg) and 3 drops of a wetting agent (or "a small drop" of 28% ammonia). The 1oz bottle that I bought ($24.95) contains 437.5 grains so it should last several lifetimes - can be passed down for generation after generation. "Your great,great,great,great...great grandfather bought this way back in the 21st Century along with this equally ancient Lootens manuscript on how to use it. Imagine they packaged products in glass and printed instructions on paper back then!"

The Lootens book is a trasure trove of darkroom information!

Thomas

frotog
17-Feb-2013, 06:57
"I still have the same bottle from years ago. I suspect I took the instuctions from some 1950's Kodak darkroom manual that I
picked up at random at a used bookstore or that I inherited from my Brother. If I have the presence of mind tonite, I'll check it; but I've got a lot going on at the moment. And I'm quite certain I never needed ammonia. I'd smell it if I ever did. Not trying to make a debate about this - suppose it's possible that at some point in time they added a preservative or binder which altered the dilution characteristics. The actual cresosin dye itself is water soluble and is still mfg for other purposes. I start with a thin solution at the edges and build up with more of the same, or stronger, toward the center. But it's not like Rubylith for a hard-edged cutout mask. Just takes a little practice."
More ... this dye works best if your neg has a little retouching "tooth" to it, like most sheet films. If the back is slippery, just
build it up more thinly and slowly, or as I mentioned before, you can always register a sheet of frosted mylar to the neg and
dye that. A hypothesis (which I'm never going to test) about ammonia/non-ammonia might related to a period when certain
common studio sheet films were on acetate. What I would have done during that era is add a pinch of clear shellac to improve adhesion ... and if Kodak did that, it would explain the need for a little ammonio solvent. But this product was made
for decades and they might have tweaked it a number of times, and could have even substituted different though related
specific dyes. But it is a useful tool.

Drew, the more you discuss this the more evident it becomes that you have no idea what you're talking about. The reason for the small amount of ammonia has nothing to do with adhesion or acetate and everything to do with dilution. Without it, the dye particles will not fully dissolve and instead will dry on the negative, leaving small white pinholes on the print. You say you're quite certain that you've never needed ammonia? Are you "quite certain" that you've actually used C.S.? Or are you just kind of certain?

Furthermore, the retouching base on tri-x is there for pencils. There are no positive effects of the base tooth on the application of crocein scarlet vs. the regular base of any other film.

Jim Noel
17-Feb-2013, 07:44
Try to find a copy of the 1944 photo techniques book "Lootens' photographic techniques". They're readily available, non-collectible...http://www.amazon.com/Lootens-Photographic-Enlarging-Print-Quality/dp/B002A3U5DC

Possibly the best description that I've read on how to effectively use Crocein Scarlet.

You will need an eyedropper and several small bottles for different degrees of dilution. Diluted ammonia works well as a dissolving agent and as a removal agent. Start working on the non-emulsion side first. CS is a great tool to put sparkle in highlights and hold back shadows but to remove scratches or dust marks you're better off using opaque.

The actual title is "Looten's on Enlarging". I believe the information is in all editions, not just 1944.

frotog
18-Feb-2013, 06:23
You're right Jim. Great book on printing techniques.

tgtaylor
4-Nov-2015, 17:42
Well I finally got around to mixing it up - found a small pin hole in the sky area on an 8x10 negative I shot last weekend and decided to put Crocein to the test. I only had 3 1-oz dropper bottles available so mixed the stock and bottles 1 and 2 per the instructions in Lootens. The instructions call for adding "three drops of the Aerosol (or other wetting solution"..."or a small drop of 28% ammonia in each of the bottles." I wonder if I can substitute 3 drops of working solution photoflo solution for the Aerosol?

Thomas