My Lack of Knowledge in Wet Plate

[stephography]

I don't think I am unique in that I have spent hours upon hours researching wet plate collodion and browsing plate cameras... trying to decide if I should buy one or make one... trying to figure out which lens would be the best & most cost effective at the same time... can I just say- HELP!!! :confused:

I am a skilled photographer. I shoot digital by trade currently, but hibernate in my darkroom making my way through my 5x7 film and 35mm when it's just "me" time. My newest endeavor that I've been itching to begin for some time now (actually 9 months... didn't want to do it while pregnant due to chemical exposure) is wet plate. I am ready to begin this process in my heart, but just when I thought I had it all figured out I realized I don't really know as much as I thought.

I need a wet plate camera. I want a 10x12 or 11x14. I am having trouble finding very many of them. The original idea was to just build my own. I have a skilled woodworking hubby, but my problem is the design... "how" to do it. I have to be able to give my hubby a plan so he can make it since he doesn't know anything about photography. I have ran across the Otti design book and heard mixed reviews. I am wondering if any of you guys know an approximate cost of making your own wet plate camera in the sizes listed? Also, if it would be more cost effective to just buy a camera already made? And if so, what camera(s) would you recommend?

I hope this is not a redundant post. I did search the forum first, but didn't quite find the answer I was hoping for. Maybe some of you wet platters out there can be more of assistance. I almost feel a bit discouraged about the whole thing. :/

Thanks in advance!!

[Cletus]

I'm not much help with regard to wet plate, but if you want a custom built camera, you might could try Richard Ritter, or possibly - doubtfully, J.B. Harlin. I know he's built personal cameras for himself and for his wife Susan, not sure whether he'd be willing to take a commission. Should either of these routes lead to the camera of your dreams, be prepared to pay!

As to Wetplate, there are many here who practice the art - I'm not one of them. :)

[Light Guru]

I shoot digital by trade currently, but hibernate in my darkroom making my way through my 5x7 film and 35mm

I need a wet plate camera. I want a 10x12 or 11x14. I am having trouble finding very many of them.

So you already have a large format camera, before going to the effort of building one or spending big $$$ on buying a plate camera why not get a wet plate holder to use with your existing camera. I know your current camera is not as but as the plate camera you want to get but that also means that materials and chemicals needed during the learning process will be less.

I have been thinking of getting ordering a 4x5 wetplate holder from Chamonix myself.
http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/wetplateholders.html

[Mark Sawyer]

Start with smaller plates (4x5 to 5x7-inch range) til you get the process down.

Any large format camera is fine. If your husband is handy, it's not hard to convert a conventional film holder to a plate holder.

Whatever lens you have is probably fine, as long as it's reasonably fast, but even f/8 is fine out in the sun.

Take a workshop or find a local wet-plater to help you get going. It will save a LOT of time, effort, and frustration.

[jodyake]

Mark has it right. Start with 4x5 till you get a handle on the process. the larger the plate the harder and more expensive it is.
you can buy a wet plate holder from me ( http://incameraindustries.com/ ) or Chamonix or make your own like this.
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/WPC/WPC3/WPP04/wpp04.html

[C. D. Keth]

Hi, Steph! I assume your name is Steph, anyway.

Mark is right. Like the cost of film, everything gets harder and more expensive by order of area rather than linear measure as plates get larger. Since you're already shooting 5x7, how about converting one of your holders to a half plate wetplate holder, the size of which is 4-3/4"x6-1/2"? That's large enough to be nice looking ambrotypes or nice sized contact portraits but small enough to be easily manageable plates in the hand. Here's a short write-up (http://www.collodion.org/plateholderconversion.html) on how to convert a holder for wetplate.

[Doug Howk]

The problem I've had with modified holders is that they are not easy to clean. Collodion is liable to get into light-trap area, for example; and possibly pulling more collodion off the plate. Also its inconvenient to have a GG size that is larger than the actual plate size when composing the image.
I just ordered a Chamonix 5X7 wet-plate holder - looks like a good design.

[Cor]

Good advice to start small and use your exciting camera with a modified holder..Jody's holders get a good press. Be meticulously (always wanted to use that word..;-)..) clean, the chemicals (silver nitrate) is quite corrosive to your camera (be it metal or wood: wood will stain), I started with my Toyo Field 8*10 and a standard 8*10 holder with a wet plate insert (actually cut out in the septum). Although I did not stain my camera I later obtained a wooden Japanese whole plate camera and holders..sadly I do not practice wet plate that much any more, partly because other photographic priorities and partly because for me wet plate has a more restricted idiom

And you should really consider joining a dedicated web forum on Collodion such as Quin Jacobsons http://www.collodion.com/

good luck!

best,

Cor

[Light Guru]

And you should really consider joining a dedicated web forum on Collodion such as Quin Jacobsons http://www.collodion.com/

Problem with Quin's forum http://www.collodion.com/cp/forum.php is that it is seldom used. I check it once a week or two and when it click "What's New" to show me any new posts there NEVER are any. So ether there are never any new posts or the forum does not function properly to show the new posts.

[dwross]

Hi Steph,

Although I very much appreciate both the romance and beauty of wet plate, you might consider learning dry plate instead. No worries about damaging your camera or plate holders, and certainly safer and easier with little ones in your life. Way less expensive, too.

There aren't many of us yet practicing dry plate, so not as much social interaction. Also not as much competition. Those factors might influence your decision, or not. Anyway, I throw this out because it amazes me how dry plate still isn't a known option to many LF photographers.

Best of luck (and fun!)
d

[C. D. Keth]

The problem I've had with modified holders is that they are not easy to clean. Collodion is liable to get into light-trap area, for example; and possibly pulling more collodion off the plate. Also its inconvenient to have a GG size that is larger than the actual plate size when composing the image.
I just ordered a Chamonix 5X7 wet-plate holder - looks like a good design.

I agree about cleanliness but it's a lot cheaper for learning than one of Jody's probably-very-nice-but-certainly-very-expensive plate holders. Why is a larger groundglass than your plate a problem? I think it's nice to have a lookaround area around your frame.

[Nicholas White]

Just something that might help you for research, a friend of mine who graduated last year spent his final year making his own 20x24 camera and making wet plate collodion images. He has a blog on the project here, and you should be able to message him!

http://20x24cameraproject.tumblr.com

[Wayne Aho]

Check Black Art Woodcraft, or Ty Guillory for cameras, both excellent, and Black Art also makes darkboxes. Buy John Coffers manual, the best to get started with, and ArtCraft Chemicals is a good supplier, although Bostick and Sullivan make a good starter kit. For the hard to get stuff like cyanide and ether, I use Chemsavers.

By the way, I agree with the previous posters about using smaller plates to get started, the cost of chemicals will eat up your wallet as you go up in plate size, much cheaper to learn the process with the smaller plates. Also, some folks try it out, and then quit using the process.

Wayne

[Cor]

Problem with Quin's forum http://www.collodion.com/cp/forum.php is that it is seldom used. I check it once a week or two and when it click "What's New" to show me any new posts there NEVER are any. So ether there are never any new posts or the forum does not function properly to show the new posts.

I am not sure what is happening there, I know there is a transition from the old forum to the new one: the old one, using my bookmark on http://www.collodion.com/ is still very much alive, the new one Chemical Pictures is not so much..maybe a more regular visitor to these fora can chime in ?

Best,

Cor

[Light Guru]

I am not sure what is happening there, I know there is a transition from the old forum to the new one: the old one, using my bookmark on http://www.collodion.com/ is still very much alive, the new one Chemical Pictures is not so much..maybe a more regular visitor to these fora can chime in ?

Best,

Cor

The link I use is to the new one. From what I can tell the "transition" from old to new forum happened a year ago so people should be using the new one, but I always get no new posts.

[davehyams]

I would second both Steve at Black Art Woodcraft and Ty, both make beautiful and functional cameras. Also starting smaller than 11X14 is a great idea. Coffer's manual is a must have, and it really helps to have someone run you through the process. Where are you located, chances are there is someone in your neck of the woods that has already started shooting wet plate, and would probably let you sit in on a shoot. For Chemicals everything you need is at Bostick & Sullivan, and Dana not only makes the majority of it himself, he is also shooting some pretty impressive plates up to 12X20 in his spare time. I would also advise against cyanide until you have figured out that you like the process and it fits your work, and also until you have developed an air tight workflow where you are confident that you will not be making errant mistakes. It doesn't take too much acid to turn a good shoot into a disaster.

[goamules]

Problem with Quin's forum is that it is seldom used. I check it once a week or two and when it click "What's New" to show me any new posts there NEVER are any. So ether there are never any new posts or the forum does not function properly to show the new posts.

Wetplate is booming. More people are shooting it every day. I'm a moderator for http://www.collodion.com/ and most posts are now by newcomers. The experts are out shooting pictures, the newcomers post a lot as they get started. It's a great site with years of expert knowledge and answers, you just have to search. There are very few new questions about wetplate, though they are repeatedly asked every few weeks. They've all been answered there before (Can I use a modern lens? What size? Are chemicals expensive?)

The most active places to see current wetplates being shot today are on several facebook groups, and on flickr, and on blogs. This will get you started:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/wetplate/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/1362001@N25/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/44113752162/?fref=ts


I don't think I am unique in that I have spent hours upon hours researching wet plate collodion and browsing plate cameras... trying to decide if I should buy one or make one... trying to figure out which lens would be the best & most cost effective at the same time..

To add to Mark and others answers, I agree start learning with a small plate. Your 5x7 camera will work great, with a modified film holder. You can draw a pencil line on the ground glass to represent the smaller plate size. The silver will not damage the wood if you wipe out the holder each shot. The existing lens will work. After you learn, then you can decide to build or buy a dedicated "plate camera", but really there is no need. You can buy a wetplate back for an existing camera too.

[big_ben_blue]

The link I use is to the new one. From what I can tell the "transition" from old to new forum happened a year ago so people should be using the new one, but I always get no new posts.
Almost everyone is still using the old forum (it's a busy place), or as Mark Twain would say:"The reports of its death are greatly exaggerated" .

[Light Guru]

Almost everyone is still using the old forum (it's a busy place), or as Mark Twain would say:"The reports of its death are greatly exaggerated" .

then what the point of them moving to the new forum platform. Keep the old one so people can read it but force people to post on the new one.

[stephography]

Wow! So much response. Thank you all so much for your help and taking the time to reply to my post. I really appreciate it :)

You have brought up some great points that I haven't even considered. I think I will definitely start out with 5x7 to cut down on costs in the beginning while I'm getting my feet (hands) wet ;) I do have a question about getting a back for my current 5x7 camera. If I get a back, say from Chamonix, will it just fit right down into the back of my camera where the film plates go? Or do I have to modify the back to accommodate it? My 5x7 camera is an old Century. I'd like to keep it intact so I can still shoot film as well. But I could purchase another style 5x7 that I could modify for only a few hundred bucks.

Also, one poster mentioned not using cyanide while I'm learning. What would I use in place of cyanide?

I have purchased the Coffer manual. Just waiting for it to arrive :)

I live in Salt Lake City. It would be amazing to find someone here doing wet plate. I guess I will have to start asking around.

I've joined the collodion forum mentioned as well.

Also, one poster mentioned trying dry plate instead. I am aware of dry plate, but wet plate images just move me. I have to try it. Each image created feels so... real. It's something I've waited a long time to try and I couldn't be more excited that now is the time :) Perhaps in the future I can try dry plate as well, though!

THANK YOU all again!

Steph

[stephography]

then what the point of them moving to the new forum platform. Keep the old one so people can read it but force people to post on the new one.

Oh my gosh! I just noticed your location Light Guru!!! You are in SLC!! So am I! :) Would watching you create wet plate be an option for me?!

[C. D. Keth]

Also, one poster mentioned not using cyanide while I'm learning. What would I use in place of cyanide?

...

I live in Salt Lake City. It would be amazing to find someone here doing wet plate. I guess I will have to start asking around.

THANK YOU all again!

Steph

You can use sodium thiosulfate to fix rather than the incredibly poisonous potassium cyanide.

You might look into taking a class from Quinn Jacobson. He's in Denver and gives a lot of workshops. It's not right there in Salt Lake but it's not too far, either, once you get rid of all that snow.

[stephography]

You can use sodium thiosulfate to fix rather than the incredibly poisonous potassium cyanide.

You might look into taking a class from Quinn Jacobson. He's in Denver and gives a lot of workshops. It's not right there in Salt Lake but it's not too far, either, once you get rid of all that snow.

Thanks for the info on the cyanide sub! And I will definitely look into Quinn Jacobson's workshops!

[Light Guru]

I think I will definitely start out with 5x7 to cut down on costs in the beginning while I'm getting my feet (hands) wet ;) I do have a question about getting a back for my current 5x7 camera. If I get a back, say from Chamonix, will it just fit right down into the back of my camera where the film plates go? Or do I have to modify the back to accommodate it?

The wet plate hold from Chamonix is not a back for the camera, it is just a standard size film holder that fits into standard size camera backs. Just like regular film holders.


I live in Salt Lake City. It would be amazing to find someone here doing wet plate. I guess I will have to start asking around.

I also live in salt lake and have been wanting to learn wet plate. If you find someone local willing to teach the process please let me know.

[Leonard Robertson]

I wanted to thank Denise for posting the http://www.thelightfarm.com/ link back in post #10 of this thread. It was only about a week ago I saw a YouTube video on making a dry plate holder from a standard sheet film holder. I didn't even know people were doing dry plates. Reading through the Light Farm site, I get the impression dry plate making may be a bit more involved when doing the coating than wet plates, but way more convenient to use in the field. I've definitely Bookmarked the Light Farm site for when I have more free time to experiment.

Len

[goamules]

...
I also live in salt lake and have been wanting to learn wet plate. If you find someone local willing to teach the process please let me know.

You've never done it but you are advising people to learn film first, weplate "much later" and telling them it's difficult, expensive and toxic here? http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?99849-Wet-Plate-Beginner&p=987701&viewfull=1#post987701

[StoneNYC]

I've been following this forum for a bit, so, wet plate can't be done on a normal LF camera that takes film? It needs a special camera?

[jodyake]

wet plate can be done on any camera, you just need a plate holder.

[Light Guru]

I've been following this forum for a bit, so, wet plate can't be done on a normal LF camera that takes film? It needs a special camera?

Read the entire thread I posted this link early on as a place to buy wet plate holders.
http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/wetplateholders.html

I think that a link to another option and even to how to modify a regular holder has also been posted.

[StoneNYC]

Read the entire thread I posted this link early on as a place to buy wet plate holders.
http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/wetplateholders.html

I think that a link to another option and even to how to modify a regular holder has also been posted.

I wasn't sure that a wet plate holder would still slide into a normal Holden's holder... Uhhh back... Normal holder'a back... That's kinda what I was trying to work out. So now I have the answer thanks.

[ghostcount]

You've never done it but you are advising people to learn film first, weplate "much later" and telling them it's difficult, expensive and toxic here? http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?99849-Wet-Plate-Beginner&p=987701&viewfull=1#post987701

Indeed...

[Light Guru]

You've never done it but you are advising people to learn film first, weplate "much later" and telling them it's difficult, expensive and toxic here? http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?99849-Wet-Plate-Beginner&p=987701&viewfull=1#post987701

I have based this off of all the research I have done. I have seen many people say that the chemicals can be toxic, and from what I have seen on cost of chemicals and tin plates it is not cheep.

Keeping in mind that what may be cheep for some people may not be cheep for others.

[Monty McCutchen]

The key here though is that the OP has a strong interest in learning Wet Plate and all of the knowledge/energy that this forum has in that field should be spent on helping her get to that end, not discouraging her with our own thoughts on why she should wait. It comes down to finding a way to help her say yes instead of no. I've been involved in Wet Plate for close to a decade now, Platinum/Palladium for the same amount of time and to this day wouldn't know the first thing about printing in Silver Gelatin. I learned Wet Plate out of a desire to do so and like many disciplines the cost of it is as much based on working methodologies, controlling waste, and being diligent in getting the most out of your medium as it does the original outlay of money. What's REALLY expensive is spending money on a medium you don't have as strong of an interest in based on some ideal of how to go about photographic pursuits. I hope the OP learns Wet Plate as fast as her life can allow--its a great medium of expression and is just as enjoyable in the process as it is in the final product. Don't wait another second is what I would recommend.

Monty

[StoneNYC]

Can you "contact print" a wet plate? So while learning wet play you can still shoot LF then transfer the image later to a wet plate image?

[Light Guru]

Can you "contact print" a wet plate?

If you mean making prints from a finished dry glass negative made using the wet plate process then yes that's how they did it originality with wet plate.

[QUOTE=StoneNYC;989367So while learning wet play you can still shoot LF then transfer the image later to a wet plate image?[/QUOTE]

If you mean taking an existing print and putting it indirect contact with a wt plate to make your wet plate image, NO when you remove your existing print it is going to be covered with the collodian and silver salts you put onto your glass or tin material thus ruining the wet plate image.

[StoneNYC]

If you mean making prints from a finished dry glass negative made using the wet plate process then yes that's how they did it originality with wet plate.



If you mean taking an existing print and putting it indirect contact with a wt plate to make your wet plate image, NO when you remove your existing print it is going to be covered with the collodian and silver salts you put onto your glass or tin material thus ruining the wet plate image.

What about keeping it 1/2mm away from the surface? I mean theoretically could it be done?

[Fourtoes]

Actually theres a few people that contact print wet plates from positives, mostly acetate digi "negs", but positives if you see what I mean.

[StoneNYC]

Actually theres a few people that contact print wet plates from positives, mostly acetate digi "negs", but positives if you see what I mean.

Like a B&W Transparency you mean? H mm so I should plan to reverse the image as part of my development (if I were to try it) interesting thanks.

[Fourtoes]

Yes but it depends on how much you value your original transparency. Most use a digital neg. You can also use an enlarger with with your original transparency. Just lay the plate beneath and do a test strip plate.

[StoneNYC]

Yes but it depends on how much you value your original transparency. Most use a digital neg. You can also use an enlarger with with your original transparency. Just lay the plate beneath and do a test strip plate.

I'll look into digital negs, have no idea what the process is thanks

[Fourtoes]

Lots of info here...
http://www.alternativephotography.com/

[C. D. Keth]

Here's a pretty reasonable plate holder to start with. (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?100150-Wet-Plate-workers-4*5-inch-glassplate-holder-and-leightweight-B-amp-L-Petzval)

[Doug Howk]

The Chamonix 5X7 wetplate holder appears to be very similar in design to the above linked Graphlex plate holder. I hope to test the Chamonix this weekend.
As to lens, I presume the faster the better. I was using an f9 lens but will switch to an f4.5 lens (Velostigmat) whose shutter doesn't work.

[alex from holland]

Making your own plate holder is very easy and cheap http://collodion-art.blogspot.nl/2010/10/normal-film-holder-for-wet-plate.html
and wet plate isn't as wet as it sounds. I have been using severral camera's over the past years and non of them got damaged severely. Only slight signs of silver nitrate.
start small, grow big is my advice

[stephography]

The key here though is that the OP has a strong interest in learning Wet Plate and all of the knowledge/energy that this forum has in that field should be spent on helping her get to that end, not discouraging her with our own thoughts on why she should wait. It comes down to finding a way to help her say yes instead of no. I've been involved in Wet Plate for close to a decade now, Platinum/Palladium for the same amount of time and to this day wouldn't know the first thing about printing in Silver Gelatin. I learned Wet Plate out of a desire to do so and like many disciplines the cost of it is as much based on working methodologies, controlling waste, and being diligent in getting the most out of your medium as it does the original outlay of money. What's REALLY expensive is spending money on a medium you don't have as strong of an interest in based on some ideal of how to go about photographic pursuits. I hope the OP learns Wet Plate as fast as her life can allow--its a great medium of expression and is just as enjoyable in the process as it is in the final product. Don't wait another second is what I would recommend.

Monty

Thanks, Monty :) I just saw this. If you can believe it I am just now getting everything together to practice wet plate. I am the OP. And I am thrilled to be able to finally get started!

[aluncrockford]

You might find these reference books useful and free

A Manual of Photography . Mathew Carey Lea

http://archive.org/details/amanualphotogra00leagoog

And

The silver Sunbeam

http://archive.org/details/silversunbeampra00towluoft

Both written in the 1880's and very relevant for the world of wet collodion, and many other aspects of large format photography

[Don Dudenbostel]

The Chamonix 5X7 wetplate holder appears to be very similar in design to the above linked Graphlex plate holder. I hope to test the Chamonix this weekend.
As to lens, I presume the faster the better. I was using an f9 lens but will switch to an f4.5 lens (Velostigmat) whose shutter doesn't work.


I purchased one of the 8x10 holders. The only complaint the plates have to be a fraction of an inch smaler than 8x10. Not a big deal but worth mentioning.

It's really a beautifully made holder and works perfectly. I would highly recommend these. I also had my brother who is an acoustic musical instrument maker make two inserts for me. One is full plate and the other 5x7. I'm going to get him to make a half plate and a panoramic insert too.

[David Schaller]

I would have had him make me a mandolin! Perhaps he has already. You are two very talented brothers.
Thank you for your contributions to this forum Don. I always admire your work.
Best,
Dave


I purchased one of the 8x10 holders. The only complaint the plates have to be a fraction of an inch smaler than 8x10. Not a big deal but worth mentioning.

It's really a beautifully made holder and works perfectly. I would highly recommend these. I also had my brother who is an acoustic musical instrument maker make two inserts for me. One is full plate and the other 5x7. I'm going to get him to make a half plate and a panoramic insert too.