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cyrus
4-Feb-2013, 02:09
Have you noticed that by the time you work your way to the "perfect" print, you're too worn out and exhausted to keep going on? It is very annoying. I'd like to take an hour or two off and then come back to the print but somehow I can never get back to that exact contrast/density etc as I left and then have to start all over again

Tony Lakin
4-Feb-2013, 03:09
Hi Cyrus
Most of the time I feel too tired to go into the darkroom for any length of time I am over 60 now and have suffered from sleep apnea for the last 15 years and although I am having Cpap treatment I still feel knackered most of the time, in my younger days no problem I could easily spend all day and most of the night in the darkroom doing my own prints or other peoples commercially.

Brian C. Miller
4-Feb-2013, 09:08
Perhaps the contrast/density problem is a factor of your chemicals. You've been printing a while, and then you take a break. What's the condition of the developer? Let's say that you've been using the same tray, unchanged, for your entire session. Then you stop and take a break. What happens to the chemicals? Do you let the tray sit, or put the developer into a jug, or mix up a fresh batch?

If you use fresh chems for each print (i.e., Jobo or similar) then you have exactly repeatable contrast. You can go away for a day or two and get exactly the same results.
If you have a tray that you've been using for X number of prints and you are constantly adjusting your prints, then the condition of the chemicals becomes a part of the printing process. That's just life. So when you take a break, the chemicals will change. If you mix up a fresh batch or just leave the tray open, you have a different chemical reaction than the old chemicals. So of course that throws off your contrast and density.

Kirk Gittings
4-Feb-2013, 09:21
Odd-in my case I get super energized when the print gets close to being finished, but tired when the drudgery of final washing, toning, HC etc. becomes the next task. Try switching to some upbeat more energetic music when you get tired.

Richard Wasserman
4-Feb-2013, 09:28
+1

I also find that doing some simple exercises like squats and/or stretching helps. It gets the blood flowing and perks up my brain.


Odd-in my case I get super energized when the print gets close to being finished, but tired when the drudgery of final washing, toning, HC etc. becomes the next task. Try switching to some upbeat more energetic music when you get tired.

ac12
4-Feb-2013, 09:36
What is the color of your darkroom?
I found it easier working in a light colored darkroom than a BLACK one. The black darkroom put a strain on my eyes, which got me tired.

Good air circulation is another factor, when the air is stale, I sometimes feel tired.

Also air temperature. Too warm sometimes makes me tired, although too cold (in some commercial/group darkrooms) makes me shiver. So I need to have it within a comfortable temp range.

About music, in high school, my friends used to complain that my "elevator music" made them sleepy. For me it was just background music, exactly what elevator music was meant to be.

If you stand, put a sheet of fatigue mat foam or rubber under where you stand. My feet get more tired now than when I was younger. And if you can, put a stool for working on the enlarger.

I'm also inclined to think chemical exhaustion. But that depends on how much chemicals you used, how many prints you processed.

1-2 hrs is a long break, and is long enough that you could/will forget the details of what you had done. I would try shorter breaks, 15-30 min.

ROL
4-Feb-2013, 09:40
Sort of like when you stop looking for something once you've found it (if you're sane)...

I can commiserate with the first part of your statement. For me, I'm fairly certain it has to do with the post-coital like adrenaline rush of "getting it" (some?). That's a huge part of why I use the darkroom. And certainly advancing age has something to do with the increasingly taxing nature of physical printing – but then that's one reason why I run five miles a day and workout with weights. Indeed, the darkroom can be a harsh mistress. (Analogy gone too far? :D)

I cannot subscribe to the second tenant of your posting, as all of my negatives always seem to go to the same place fine art print wise, no matter whether the interim time is a few hours or a few years. Your difficulties suggest that you may benefit from a printing tune-up course or even learning other (alternative) techniques, to freshen your approach and objectivity. Or maybe, just go for a five mile run. ;)

Robert Hall
4-Feb-2013, 10:23
I find that when I get to the perfect print I go looking for the next negative. It continues until I find that it's 3 in the morning and have to fight the urge to refresh the fix and keep going.

Maybe I should switch to a developer that doesn't last so long. :)

Jody_S
4-Feb-2013, 10:46
I used to be able to pull darkroom all-nighters a couple times a week, now it's a half-night session once a month. I'm not getting much done.

ROL
4-Feb-2013, 10:59
Maybe I should switch to a developer that doesn't last so long. :)

That's not so silly as your smiley suggests. Dektol limits my printing sessions to 4 or 5 hours maximum, whereupon after cleanup, the rest of the day is spent in in the fresh air and light. I've always considered that an advantage. The somewhat storied, vaunted, all day and night marathon printing sessions to arrive at a perfect print seem to me to be mostly a symptom of a poorly executed negative, as you have indeed alluded.

Drew Wiley
4-Feb-2013, 12:42
Every aspect of black and white photography seems so easy compared to serious color work that I hardly think about it. It's recreation.

Mark Woods
4-Feb-2013, 14:06
Because of the configuration of my darkroom, I sit on a short stool while I work on the enlarger and stand to process the print. The up and down activity helps and the lower leg compression stockings. When a print works, I have extensive notes to get back to it. When it doesn't work, I usually leave the neg in the enlarger and close up/clean up to revisit it the next morning. I "sleep" on it. Works for me.

C. D. Keth
4-Feb-2013, 14:16
I get wired and don't notice huge passages of time.

Corran
4-Feb-2013, 14:29
Me neither. I'll start around 8pm and have to force myself to go to sleep around 3-4am. I have to go to work at 9, after all...

Fred L
4-Feb-2013, 14:53
I've found proper anti-fatigue mats make a noticeable difference in comfort for long developing/ printing sessions. I have some basic ones from a Canadian hardware store but they're just a stop gap until I get better ones. I plan to get mats similar to those found in restaurants (not the ones with holes mind you) and similar businesses where staff are on their feet for long periods. The first lab I worked in had them and for my first experience, it was quite a revelation.

Fresh air is also key so make sure there's a good exchange in your darkroom. and take breaks as often as you can.

Jerry Bodine
4-Feb-2013, 15:02
Me neither. I'll start around 8pm and have to force myself to go to sleep around 3-4am. I have to go to work at 9, after all...

Off topic, but this reminds me of when I was 23, closing down the Hollywood Palladium dancing with my girl friend at 2am three nights a week, get home at 3am, then up for work at 6am. Then one morning her mother (a nurse) said I looked like I had fever, took my temp, 104F, asked if I could drive home ok and get in bed, she'd call their family doctor to come and check me out. Dr arrived at 105F, rubbing feet with alcohol. Asked if I was ok - Sure, I feel "fine." Turns out I was just run down, needed rest. Called into work, doctor's orders to rest until he says to get up. Girl friend comes over and we practice our dance lessons in the living room while I'm "sick." Ah, those were the days!

ROL
4-Feb-2013, 16:45
Every aspect of black and white photography seems so easy compared to serious color work that I hardly think about it. It's recreation.

OK boys, a real live can–o–worms opener (we been dissed :mad:):

"black and white photography seems so easy" ...And yet rarely is the medium done well.
"serious color work" ...Puleaze! Interpreting the world in non literal tones is simply beyond some.
"hardly think about it" ...Seems true enough for you.
"It's recreation." ...Recreating the world beyond the literal. If you don't enjoy what you're doing, don't.

Drew Wiley
4-Feb-2013, 16:54
I didn't dis anyone. When I get into black and white I'm probably just as intense as anyone, and at least as nitpicky about the end result. But most of the time you're just cleaning the neg plus the carrier
glass once per image. The other nite I was working on a master printing dupe (color) which required
eight precision masks in advance. Then I was turning that into an interneg! Every single step not only
had to be unblemished but in perfect register, before I can even start to print. Now that particular image was more involved than most, but you should be able to get the point ....

Chuck P.
4-Feb-2013, 17:08
I get wired and don't notice huge passages of time.

Same here, I'm amazed how time passes when in the darkroom. I usually tone in the same session, but am considering going straight to washing after the last print, picking up the toning activity the next day or so. This would mean that I could get out of the darkroom earlier on already late nights. Oh, and I always clean up thoroughly after each session, regardless of the time (hate sloppy darkroom trays, sink, etc....I'm compelled to clean up, but that's just me).....that's when I really begin to feel tired.

Dan Henderson
4-Feb-2013, 18:59
I find that my efficiency and creativity in the darkroom begins waning after a couple of hours. I begin to make little mistakes, and get inordinately annoyed by them. It is best for me to get into the darkroom by 9am, and be done by lunchtime. If I have gotten a finished print by that time, great. If not, the negative will be waiting for me tomorrow morning. And maybe, while I am doing something else in the afternoon, I will get some inspiration to interpret the negative even better.

jp
4-Feb-2013, 19:39
Every aspect of black and white photography seems so easy compared to serious color work that I hardly think about it. It's recreation.

Compared to any color printing, it is easy. Just takes time.

jp
4-Feb-2013, 19:41
Anti-fatigue mat is helpful.

Music is helpful. I don't stay up as late as I used to in the darkroom, part of that is because I can't crank the music with little kids sleeping in the same house. Something motivating or energetic.

DanK
4-Feb-2013, 20:05
... tired when the drudgery of final washing, toning, HC etc. becomes the next task ...

Washing and Toning are the killers for me....prefer to print at night and I'll print myself to exhaustion, then realize I'm committed for another couple hours...

I used to stand all the time in the darkroom and used the mats (in my 20's), then switched to an old wooden stool (thought that was heaven - in my 30's), now I'm all for my nice padded, adjustable height, air-cushioned posing stool (40's)... :)

Dan

Mark Woods
4-Feb-2013, 20:10
Yes. I wrap around 3 p.m.

Merg Ross
4-Feb-2013, 22:01
One thing I have never felt in the darkroom, is fatigue. If faced with negatives and vision of dubious worth, I call it a day. However, if inspired by what appears on the easel, and ultimately in the fixer, time has no bounds. A good day in the darkroom is usually twelve hours, sometimes only to reach the wash, sometimes to conclude with mounted prints on the wall. It is all about the passion, knowing when you have a dud, and moving on. I am still young, so perhaps this will change.

cyrus
4-Feb-2013, 22:14
Glad I'm not the only one! I do have fatigue mats I think I'm going to put a stool next to the sink. Guess I'm getting old~! Even a good neg takes time since you still have to figure out how to interpret it -- should I burn here or dodge there? Should the print be high contrast or low contrast etc etc. and by the time I think I've finally figured out what I want to do with a neg, I'm just too worn out to continue. It is quite frustrating.

ShawnHoke
5-Feb-2013, 10:40
I wish I had the time to get tired in the darkroom! My "darkroom" is our only bathroom, so I can't really occupy it for more than a few hours. :) And then I have to clean it up and return everything to order.

That's the tradeoff with our tiny NYC living quarters.

cyrus
6-Feb-2013, 12:48
I cannot subscribe to the second tenant of your posting, as all of my negatives always seem to go to the same place fine art print wise, no matter whether the interim time is a few hours or a few years. Your difficulties suggest that you may benefit from a printing tune-up course or even learning other (alternative) techniques, to freshen your approach and objectivity. Or maybe, just go for a five mile run. ;)

Oh I've been known to make multiple versions of prints from the same negative. Sometimes I like it darker, sometimes lighter, sometimes cropped, sometimes not... etc etc In fact I am making a deliberate effort to NOT do a "standard" print nowdays.

I think a lot of photographers do that.

Kirk Gittings
6-Feb-2013, 12:58
Printers should think outside the traditional box on occasion-it helps one to explore the full possibilities in a negative.

Mark Woods
6-Feb-2013, 13:05
I look at a print and when it's right for me, I know it. I've spent a number of years working on a negative (on and off) until I finally made a print I was satisfied with. I previsualize the image at the time of the shot and have a solid idea of what the print should look like. I guess it comes from my over 30 years working as a cinematographer where I was paid to get a specific image for a client. Not much wiggle room if one wanted to stay employed.

Merg Ross
6-Feb-2013, 13:13
Printers should think outside the traditional box on occasion-it helps one to explore the full possibilities in a negative.

Moonrise?

Kirk Gittings
6-Feb-2013, 13:24
Good example.

Mark Woods
6-Feb-2013, 13:27
That's the one. It's a very complicated print and different contrast on different parts of the image. I have another of the moon over the Japanese Tea House in the Huntington Gardens that was not much of a problem. But I shot it with the first Moonrise in mind and what I needed to do to make the negative a bit more printer friendly. ;-)

DrTang
6-Feb-2013, 13:59
rubber mats, stool, heater if it's too cold, good tunes

Drew Wiley
6-Feb-2013, 14:48
Darkroom work almost always relaxes me. Only at the end of a long session and final toning or washing does it begin to wear me down. I previsualize everything exactly, perfectly expose and develop, blah blah, then generally prefer the specific print that goes contrary to my original idea.
I do tweaks. 90% of the game transpires in the darkroom itself; and I rarely make two prints identically. That's what xerox machines are for.

JMB
6-Feb-2013, 15:00
Per Volquartz always amazed me by the way that he could power through marathons in the darkroom at 70 plus years old. And he was even beautiful in the lab because after many years of photography he would still set to work with the enthusiasm of an 18 year old preparing to take his first car for a spin.

Andrew O'Neill
6-Feb-2013, 15:34
Perhaps the contrast/density problem is a factor of your chemicals. You've been printing a while, and then you take a break. What's the condition of the developer? Let's say that you've been using the same tray, unchanged, for your entire session. Then you stop and take a break. What happens to the chemicals? Do you let the tray sit, or put the developer into a jug, or mix up a fresh batch?

If you use fresh chems for each print (i.e., Jobo or similar) then you have exactly repeatable contrast. You can go away for a day or two and get exactly the same results.
If you have a tray that you've been using for X number of prints and you are constantly adjusting your prints, then the condition of the chemicals becomes a part of the printing process. That's just life. So when you take a break, the chemicals will change. If you mix up a fresh batch or just leave the tray open, you have a different chemical reaction than the old chemicals. So of course that throws off your contrast and density.

That's why I use the factorial method of development, which is outlined in AA's book, The Print.
When I get tired in the darkroom, I shut it down. I used to push myself when I was tired, spending hours into the night trying to get a print to work, only to come back in later and be shocked at the crap I did. For me, being too tired and frustrated just leads to more frustration and a tremendous waste of materials. Paper ain't cheap anymore...

Colin Robertson
6-Feb-2013, 16:18
Some sessions last hours, others don't. Two stupid mistakes back to back means 'call it a day'.

SpeedGraphicMan
7-Feb-2013, 14:24
Has the oppisite effect on me, any sign of progress often pushes me to continue!
Perseverence is the key! It takes a great deal of it when you have to do an occasional 18-20 hour printing session!

Curt
7-Feb-2013, 18:19
Per Volquartz always amazed me by the way that he could power through marathons in the darkroom at 70 plus years old. And he was even beautiful in the lab because after many years of photography he would still set to work with the enthusiasm of an 18 year old preparing to take his first car for a spin.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?78429-Rest-in-Peace-Per-Volquartz-1947-2011

Per had an enormous talent and a huge enthusiasm. He was an inspiration to me and a great many others. I miss him.

cyrus
8-Feb-2013, 12:40
Two stupid mistakes back to back means 'call it a day'.

Yeah this is a good policy I've started to adopt. I've started to keep handwritten notes in the darkroom to make it easier to know where I left off too.

Mark Woods
8-Feb-2013, 13:31
I keep extensive notes for each print that is kept with the neg. It's helped me become a better printer and learn more about the processes I do. I also keep notes about the exposure and processing of the film.