Sepia Toner Types and Permanence

[Pawlowski6132]

Does a Thiocarbamide based Sepia Toner (e.g., Berg) offer the same permanence benefits of a Sulfide based sepia toner?

Thanx in advance.

And, as a sidebar:

If anyone mixes their own Sufide based toner, what do you consider to be the capacity of your solution??


Thanx in advance,

Joe

[IanG]

Yes Thiourea (thiocarbamide) toners ar very permanent, like sulphide. Can't comment on the capacity as I rarely tone with these toners these days. When i did a lot of toning I found the type of paperv and also developer was just as important to the final result as the toner itself.

Ian

[Mark Woods]

I hope you're aware that the sulfide based toners can fog unexposed film and paper. I mix my own thiocarbamide toner.

[Pawlowski6132]

Thanx Gents. I'll guess I'll just stick with the Berg product and not mix my own. But now what do I do with five pounds of Potassium Ferricyanide??

[Mark Woods]

You can use PF for all sorts of things, or sell it on this forum.

[Reinhold Schable]

The beauty of mixing your own is that you can taylor the color across a wide range of tonalities.
I much prefer the chocolate brown color of Varigam 6B-1 / 6T-1 compared to the baby-puke yellow of most sepia toners.

Here's a .pdf I created a few years ago for a photo club project...

Reinhold
www.ClassicBWphoto.com

[Mark Woods]

Thank you for the PDF.

[Nathan Potter]

Reinhold, very useful information. Great thanks.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[patrickjames]

Joe, there is no reason not to mix your own. It is super cheap to do it. After years of using the premixed toners from Berg and Patterson, et al. I now just mix it myself. The color of Thiocarbamide sepia toners can be controlled somewhat through the pH of the toner, but it is hit or miss in my experience. The density also changes according to the pH as well. Not ideal. The browns typically tend to be colder with Thiocarbamide. Sulphide toners tend to be warmer and the tone can be manipulated somewhat with a change in bleach. The density isn't as affected with Sulphide as it is with Thiocarbamide. If you want to tone with Sulphide, all you need is your P. Ferri., some Potassium Bromide and Sodium Sulphide. You can change the bleach to include other salts besides the KBr. You can even use sea salt (sans iodide).

If you are concerned about fog with Sulphide toners, just finish the toning outside. I would never use it indoors 'cause the stuff stinks! I usually tone at night. I know exposure to bright light for a bleached print is not ideal, but I no longer remember why. I have never used Sulphide to exhaustion. I only mix what I need for the session. It usually only takes up to about 40 grams.

[Scott Walker]

Thanks Reinhold, Excellent information.
btw...here's a plug for your dodging wands, I love those things!
Anyone working in a wet darkroom without a set is really missing out and doing things the hard way.

[Reinhold Schable]

Scott, thanks for the testimonial, I think I can hear you chuckling way down here...

A bit more about the Varigam toners...

The bleaches are very robust, they can process at least twice the number of prints than the toners.
In full glass bottles, they will keep for 6 months, easily.

All three toners have a mere 3 grams of Thourea, and are slap-dash simple to mix.
A half gallon of 6T-1 will tone at least 2 dozen 11x14's without a color or density shift.
If I store 6T-1 for more than 2~3 months (half gallon glass bottles), I'll do a quick check on a scrap print.
In 5 minutes I can have a new batch mixed and ready to go.

If I use it conservatively I find that the 6T-1 (dark chocolate) toner will not alter final print density.
This means that untoned print density will be identical to toned print density.
The old saw: "prints to be toned should be 20% darker" may not apply.

Reinhold