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Scott Davis
28-Jan-2013, 14:08
I'm going to be offering a class on shooting with large format cameras and for obvious reasons, 4x5 will be the preferred camera size for the class. I'm on the horns of a dilemma - I don't shoot 4x5 any more for myself, mostly working with bigger (sometimes MUCH bigger) cameras (5x7, 5x12, 6.5x8.5, and 14x17). I no longer have a 4x5 camera of either field or monorail variety, and so I'm thinking about getting one I can use for teaching with. I think for instructional purposes, a monorail would make sense especially if I want to demonstrate movements in a tabletop situation. My question is, do I go for something classic, like a Sinar Norma or an F/F2, or do I go with something a bit more high-spec like a Cambo Master or Horseman that has yaw-free axis tilts? What about a Cambo SF45? Anyone ever use one of those? I'm trying to keep this on a budget (under $500) or I'd just resolve my issue and get a Sinar P2. I know what I'd like for personal use, but I want something that will be easy to use for students (mostly adult learners, so nobody will be abusing the camera) and flexible enough to support most student interests. Any feedback is welcome, and cameras not on this list will be received with an open mind.

DrTang
28-Jan-2013, 14:15
last rail 4x5 I had was a Horseman L camera.. it was easy to mess with and left me impressed, and they are cheap enough now that a student could pick one up after the class is over and not have to re-fi the house

Mark Sawyer
28-Jan-2013, 14:19
The Toyo monorails seem to go cheap, and are excellent modern studio 4x5's, well built with lots of movements.

adelorenzo
28-Jan-2013, 14:20
I picked up a Toyo 45CX monorail a few months ago as my introduction to large format. As a beginner it has been a great camera and has pretty much anything I could want: full movements, geared fine focusing and easy to switch between horizontal/vertical back. It retails brand new for less than $800 so used it should be quite affordable. (I got mine for much, much less)

The only thing I don't like about it is, obviously, that its a monorail and clunky to drag around outdoors, although that hasn't stopped me.

Scott Davis
28-Jan-2013, 14:29
I'm not crazy about the Toyo monorails, at least the less expensive ones, and perhaps it's an irrational thing, but I remember looking at a Toyo 45CX when they first came out as a budget monorail, and the plastic of the standard mounting boxes was so sharp-edged that I actually cut my hand trying to adjust it (someone else playing with the demo model in the store had over-tightened a focusing lock knob and it required enough force to loosen it that my hand slipped and Bang!).

BarryS
28-Jan-2013, 14:44
Scott--You're welcome to borrow a 4x5 from me if you like. I have an F2 that would do the trick.

Vaughn
28-Jan-2013, 15:03
I like to keep things simple and on that basis suggest a simple Calumet 4x5 rail.

But I suppose if you are focusing in on table top instruction, then Yaw-free might be the way to go, but it certainly increases the number of knobs!

lenser
28-Jan-2013, 15:12
I've got to second the Calumet C-400 series. Dirt cheap and about the only thing it doesn't do is have an interchangeable bellows.

C. D. Keth
28-Jan-2013, 15:18
I'd go with a sinar F2. It's available, easily repaired and added onto, and they're everything you could ever want in a studio camera.

John Kasaian
28-Jan-2013, 15:55
For cheap I'd go with a Calumet 400 or Graphic View II---both are ultra basic & easy for students to understand--and should work just fine for your purposes. Of course if you really feel the need for a new, state of the Art 4x5 see if any of the large makers, why not contact the distributors for Sinar, Arca, etc...? They may well offer special pricing for educators as an incentive in order to lure your students into the "family"

WayneStevenson
28-Jan-2013, 16:01
Calumet C-4XX series will take a lot of abuse. However, the ability to remove the bellows to show everyone the insides to show there's no magic in there always makes for an interesting lesson.

Jerry Bodine
28-Jan-2013, 16:03
Is the $500 budget applicable to only the camera? Surely that amount would not cover lenses/holders/tripod and all the other items needed.

Joseph Dickerson
28-Jan-2013, 16:21
I'm guessing you have all the peripheral items as you already shoot large format, so your budget should be fine.

I'd add another vote for the Sinar F/F1/F2, easy to demo with, I teach large format photography among other things, easy for students to understand, if you don't try to explain the DOF and tilt/swing calculator, I confuse myself when I explain those things, and solid enough that even the most ham-fisted of your students can be trusted around it. :rolleyes:

Something that you might not be aware of is that Toyo (Mamiya America) has a program called Mac On Campus that allows you, and your students to buy Toyo, Mamiya, Induro, and other products at considerable savings. I recent acquired an Induro carbon fiber tripod for nearly $100 less than the B&H price. You have to be teaching for an accredited institution and provide proof of employment but it's worth looking into. They also offer lots of useful information, really a useful program.

Good luck, we need more folks teaching the next generation of LF photographers. :cool:

JD

Vaughn
28-Jan-2013, 17:02
Calumet C-4XX series will take a lot of abuse. However, the ability to remove the bellows to show everyone the insides to show there's no magic in there always makes for an interesting lesson.

The bellows can easily removed on our very basic Calumet rail 4x5's. Not sure of the model, though.

This one:

http://now-on-ebay.blogspot.com/2010/10/calumet-cambo-4x5-view-camera-outfit.html

Joseph Dickerson
28-Jan-2013, 17:46
Calumet C-4XX series will take a lot of abuse. However, the ability to remove the bellows to show everyone the insides to show there's no magic in there always makes for an interesting lesson.

Really? :rolleyes: Wrong camera I suspect. Calumet 4XX series had a fixed, as in permanent bellows. The Cambo/Calumet 45 series have an interchangeable bellows.

Although, come to think of it, I'm sure that students could remove any bellows if left to their own devices! I know that some of mine could. :mad:

JD

Jerry Bodine
28-Jan-2013, 17:58
I'm guessing you have all the peripheral items as you already shoot large format, so your budget should be fine.


Maybe not. For example, if the lenses in hand must be re-mounted on boards that fit whatever camera is chosen ... and if all 4x5 holders were relinquished along with the previous 4x5 camera (no idea how many we're talking about)? Just some of my thoughts.

Joseph Dickerson
28-Jan-2013, 18:03
Maybe not. For example, if the lenses in hand must be re-mounted on boards that fit whatever camera is chosen ... and if all 4x5 holders were relinquished along with the previous 4x5 camera (no idea how many we're talking about)? Just some of my thoughts.

Good point, should have said "some of the peripherals".

Thanks for bringing me to task, I need that once in a while, but it's a service usually supplied by my wife. :rolleyes:

JD

tgtaylor
28-Jan-2013, 18:53
I'd choose the Toyo/Omega-View 45C which are well made full-blown studio cameras and can be readily found for a song. But I own one (actually 5 Toyo's) and of course am biased towards the Toyo-View.

Thomas

Scott Davis
28-Jan-2013, 19:40
I still have all the peripherals - I kept my film holders because I got into the RiteWays that have the locking button, and those were hard to find in any quantity. Tripod? Check - several of them appropriate sized for 4x5. Darkcloth? got two. Meters? Two Sekonic 408s and at least one Minolta SpotMeter F (I know, a bit overkill but hey). Cable releases? coming out my ears. Lenses? I still have my 90, 150, and 210 lenses, not to mention the 12" Commercial Ektar and the 4 3/8" W.A. Dagor. Everything is on Technika boards, so all I need is one lens board adapter and I don't have to do any remounting.

If you dig around long enough, you can find a complete camera kit with a single lens (usually something like one of those convertible symmars or a Kodak 127mm or 135mm Ektar) and a handful of holders for under $500, even on Fleabay. But that probably is one of those gray Calumet CC-4xx models.

Andy Eads
28-Jan-2013, 20:34
I teach photography to high school kids. I have a Horseman 450 monorail that I use to demonstrate the basic parts of a camera. The Horseman or a Sinar would be excellent choices mostly because they are modular. Before you start the lesson, strip the thing down to the frame, ask the kids how they like your camera. Then start building it up explaining each part along the way. Whey they are ready to learn about movements, you've got the best platform possible for the lesson. The Horseman is heavy but built like a tank so it's perfect for a kid centric environment. Have fun!

Kimberly Anderson
28-Jan-2013, 22:01
Methinks your budget is too small for rail cameras.

Scott Davis
29-Jan-2013, 08:05
Methinks your budget is too small for rail cameras.

Not really- I've been watching a bunch of them on the big auction site and there are plenty going well under $500. It's too little if I'm looking for a Sinar P or P2 in good working order, but not for an A1/F/F2 or even a Norma. Ditto most Horseman monorails, Toyos (except maybe the GX and the one with the collapsible monorail) and Calumets/Cambos. There's a plethora of choices, which is why I posed the question.

Joseph Dickerson
29-Jan-2013, 09:45
Scott,

There's a clean F2 on ebay for $450 (buy it now) currently.

JD

Scott Davis
29-Jan-2013, 10:58
Joseph- I think since you posted it the F2 sold, as I can't find one for that price! Well, as many have noted, Sinars are very common. I'll keep watching.

Jonathan Barlow
29-Jan-2013, 13:45
You should be able to find a nice clean Sinar P2 4x5 for $600-800 on eBay. From your comments, it sounds like you'd enjoy working with a P2 as much as the students might :cool:.

welly
29-Jan-2013, 14:23
Methinks your budget is too small for rail cameras.

You could almost buy two monorail cameras for $500! I bought my Cambo 4x5 from this forum for $200 and I see them all the time for that price or a little more.

neil poulsen
29-Jan-2013, 23:07
Go with something to which your students can reasonably aspire. Like an Sinar F series or an inexpensive Cambo. Seems like it should also be capable of accepting a bag bellows.

Daniel Stone
29-Jan-2013, 23:30
as a "former" college(community, not univ) student, I'd recommend something that's as VERSATILE as possible, so you can really show that LF IS VERSATILE!!!

So, watch out for a 4x5 Horseman, Sinar, Cambo, etc... Something to "aspire" to technically-wise, but something that can accept a 75mm-->300mm.

I got(and still have/use) a long-rail Calumet CC-40* model off of c-list locally for $75!!! Handles my 90SW through my 450C with ease

just my experience from a younger(24) person's viewpoint :)

-Dan

Terry Christian
30-Jan-2013, 09:16
I bought my Calumet 540 monorail off APUG for roughly $100-120, and it has removable/interchangeable bellows. It would be an ideal camera for teaching students, as everything is open and accessible.

Bernice Loui
30-Jan-2013, 09:43
The best used market value in mono rails would be a Horseman L and first generation silver Sinar P. While the Sinar offers extremely good versatility and expandability, the Horseman L is a extremely under rated camera and way under valued for what they offer.

IMO, the Sinar P makes a good demonstration and instructional camera due to it's functionality and ease of use. In all cases, the mechanical and functional condition of the camera may be more important than cosmetic condition for camera used in an education environment.


Bernice