Using Cedar wood for building a camera

[[Maarten]]

As Cedar is quite lightweight, I was wondering if this would be a good idea to build a camera using this. It is thermally stable, can cope with different humidities (as I read on the net), only disadvantage might be it is not hard wood.
Does anyone knows something about this?

regards
Maarten

[Steven Tribe]

Looking through my "wood" book, my conception that Cedar is a very unspecific term is more than supported!

There are more than 15 species listed. From pencil cedar to "stinking" cedar. Some are good - others are bad.

[[Maarten]]

Ok, I was aware there were different types, but not that many. Would it be a big effort to give me the names of the good types to use?
Apparently it is only the cedar wood from deciduoustree-type which is good, not the conifer type. And that only keeps the Northern American cedar in the running?

greets
Maarten

[cosmicexplosion]

What most commonly is known as cedar and to which I think you refer is the timber used on doors windows and saunas us completely unsuitable as is very soft timber and not very strong.

Apparently Australian red cedar is. Different story and would be ideal.

[Tim k]

Sure you could. But not the best choice. While it might be lighter, I bet the weight savings are insignificant. It's not going to hold a small screw very good. And I don't think you could get a back to hold together. But the bugs would never eat it. Just be boring and go get some cherry. It's actually pretty lightweight.

[Andrey Donchev]

If it is light it is soft. Soft is not good for camera. There are a lot of things to consider when you are choosing a wood for a camera. The most important its dimensional stability in time. Is it prone to absorb moisture, how coarse is its grain. As example here I can point the Oak. Very hard, very stable dimensionally, almost null moisture absorption, bit its grain is very coarse. Chose something traditional. Don't reinvent the wheel. The Cherry is good enough, the Walnut is better, but more expensive, the Mahogany is much better but its scarce, expensive and in danger, the Ebony is much much better but its much scarce, much more expensive and in greater danger.

[E. von Hoegh]

;980133']As Cedar is quite lightweight, I was wondering if this would be a good idea to build a camera using this. It is thermally stable, can cope with different humidities (as I read on the net), only disadvantage might be it is not hard wood.
Does anyone knows something about this?

regards
Maarten

Aircraft grade spruce would be a better coice, if you must use a softwood. The North American cedar is valuable mainly for it's resistance to rot and moth larvae.
But, as has been pointed out, there are other woods which are better than cedar - or spruce - in all respects.

[Simon Benton]

Cherry is one of the best woods for cameras. Strong, stable and not too heavy.

[Steven Tribe]

I could give you some names, but I doubt they would make much sense to your supplier! The knowledge of the average timber stockist has fallen by huge amounts in the last 30 years. Hard wood suppliers are very few and they concentrate on high demand items - oak, ash, teak (often only 2nd/3rd quality these days) and rot resistant tropical species.

Cherry is a very variable wood, sometimes very colourful - but often grey and uninteresting. Camera makers picked out selected timbers. Other fruit tree wood can be used if you can find a suitable size of seasoned stock.

European walnut is very good. My current stock of walnut comes from a neighbour's garden, not an enormous tree, but with useful lengths and widths.
What is called "mahogany" in the trade these days is not the genuine article.
I have seen various lengths dimensions of America Walnut on sale in hobby shops in Europe. These are well finished and with perfect grain and would save a lot of time in manufacture.

[Peter Gomena]

B&J made a lot of cameras out of maple. Not the lightest, but hard.

[Simon Benton]

[QUOTE=Steven Tribe;980190]I could give you some names, but I doubt they would make much sense to your supplier! The knowledge of the average timber stockist has fallen by huge amounts in the last 30 years. Hard wood suppliers are very few and they concentrate on high demand items - oak, ash, teak (often only 2nd/3rd quality these days) and rot resistant tropical species.

Cherry is a very variable wood, sometimes very colourful - but often grey and uninteresting. Camera makers picked out selected timbers. Other fruit tree wood can be used if you can find a suitable size of seasoned stock.QUOTE]

The prized cherry is heartwood which always has the beautiful red brown colour which darkens naturally with light and time. Sap wood cherry, which is whitish grey and will never darken, is often mixed in with heartwood cherry but is only useful if it is stained. When ordering cherry always make sure it is all heartwood. I was a cabinetmaker for 40 years and have a great passion for American black cherry and have made many furniture items out of it.

[Tim Meisburger]

Cedar will work for a camera, but my biggest concerns would be screws pulling out, and if you used thin stock it might be transparent. If you want to experiment with something like that, you might try redwood. Thirty years ago you could still get old growth which was dead strait and a dream to work with hand tools. If you machine it use a mask, as the dust is an irritant.

[Steve Smith]

What is called "mahogany" in the trade these days is not the genuine article.

Mo, but some of the sapele which is pretending to be Mahogany is suitable for camera building.

My vote is to find some old furniture to take apart. I have use the back and sides of drawers made from oak. A lot of the time it's already the right thickness!


Steve,

[ImSoNegative]

you wouldnt have to worry about moths and it would smell really nice : ))

[Brian Sims]

There is another reason no to use cedar. The extractives that make cedar rot resistant may present a risk to some coatings on your lenses. I wouldn't use any of the aromatic woods and I would finish with shellac to prevent possible outgassing.

The suggestion above to use high grade spruce is a good one. It's strenght to weight ratio is unsurpassed. It is dimensionally stable--consider that spruce continues to be the only wood used in a fine piano. I would not use spruce for any parts that are going to rub together however.

[Tim k]

Maarten do you give up yet?

[Kuzano]

Seagull Guitars has been making guitars in Canada for over 30 years, and one choice of soundboard (top) is a Cedar which I think is fairly local to them. I purchased one in 1989, and through all my relocations, that cedar has been stable and impervious to my particular brand of abuse, which is playing poorly.

If using cedar as the toneboard in a guitar is not a testament to it's stability for finely detailed construction, I don't know what is. Seagull guitars are highly respected in the mid priced guitar market. I picked up another Seagull S6 cedar a few years ago, and it too was in excellent condition.

Seagull guitars has a web site, where you may contact them for the type and availability of the Cedar they use. I do know they use a local Red Cherry for the sides and backs of most of their guitars, and that may also be an option. The Cherry sides and backs are a deep red and show no grain, so they are clearly stained to attain that relatively solid color. The cedar tops show a very tight or fine grain and are solid, rather than laminated as many guitars are.

[Ricardo de Oliveira]

From the boat building days : if I remember well the wooden guys from the north half of the globe used to saturate western red cedar with epoxy resin to make strong and lightweight canoes and kayaks. down here cedar is a hard wood, a distant cousin from mahogany, pretty stable, straight grained and easy to work with. it's called cedro rosa (cedrella odorata) and would be my wood choice for a camera.

[Craig Roberts]

To add to Steve Smith's comment: One source is buying old furniture from thrift shops that will will give you some good seasoned wood for camera projects. I have some Honduran mahogany that has been "curing" for over 30 years. Someday I'll build a camera out of it.

[Steve Smith]

If using cedar as the toneboard in a guitar is not a testament to it's stability for finely detailed construction, I don't know what is.

Cedar is excellent as a sound board but if the whole guitar body were made of it, it wouldn't be very stable. A guitar's back and sides are usually of rosewood, mahogany, walnut or maple as these woods can better keep the guitar's shape.


Steve.

[Leszek Vogt]

Marten, not sure how fancy you wish the wood to be. Red Cedar appears to be 380 on the (Janka) hardness scale. I was going to suggest the Yellow Alaskan Cedar type, which is rated at 530...I've seen really nice cabinet built out of it at College of the Redwoods. But, you'd be better off to look locally and perhaps you find some good Euro Beech or Pear. Am Beech rates at about 1300. Both of these woods are pretty when properly finished. Cherry it's rated at 950 and Honduras Mohogany at 800 something. I, too, have a nice slab of that mohogany that I bought around 30 yrs ago. Although it's not the best (mohogany) it's very stable wood....the Phillipine type can actually be nicer, but it's softer and not as stable.

If you don't want the camera to weight much, the exotic hardwoods like padauk, purple heart, cocobolo, ebony, wenge, etc are not your friend.

The more I think....as a personal choice....I probably would choose Koa. This wood is no longer imported from Hawaii (much like the real mohogany from Dominican Republic); therefore, the price just shut up beyond Satelites. Koa has properties v. similar to mohogany....so I'm presuming it will test similarly for hardness. The grain can be very figurative or plain, the thing is that even the plain has darker splatches, giving that extra visual zing....without spending $100/bd foot for the figurative.

But, the bottom line is using sharp tools...that is if you don't want to deal with tearouts or burns. I'd also suggest that the wood moisture content (for stability) is close to a fine cabinet...8-8.5%. Enjoy the process.

Les

[[Maarten]]

Maarten do you give up yet?

No absolutely not. I'm surpriced by the different opinions on the "borderline"choices of wood. some are undoubtly very good choices (if found in good quality and good price, but that's another discussion). Possibly I'll just pass by the local cabinetmaker and see what's there to find.
Anyhow allready lots of thanks for all that gave valuable input up till now. I'll closely follow this discussion, and if in the near future, I'll tell you what has become of my search ;o)

regards
Maarten

[Tim k]

Good for you.

What sort of camera did you have in mind?

[[Maarten]]

I only realise now that I haven't said a word about what I'm planning to do with the camera (thanks Tim to remind me ;) ). So ... second chance ... I got fascinated by the results of the wet plate photography. So what I want to make is a 11x14 inch viewcamera, still being able to do as much as possible technical camera movements.
I hope my concern for a heavy camera makes more sense now.

regards
Maarten

[Miguel Coquis]

There is a very interesting essence called Ochroma lagopus y Ochroma bicolor, popular name "madera de balsa" (Perú and Equateur forests).
It is known for its extremely light weight.
I wonder if someone would be wishing to plan a camera project with it.
On ULF application this could become a must.

[aclark]

Western Red Cedar is used for guitar tops for one reason. It vibrates like mad! As this is the last thing you want a camera to do during a long exposure, this quality alone should rule it out.
If you want a lightweight wood you could consider Lime, which I believe is called Basswood in North America. Its downsides are that it is rather soft and it looks very bland. But it is very dimensionally stable, is light in weight, and it has very high bend strength. Samples I tested were as stiff as ebony despite having only half the weight, and were almost twice as stiff as cherry ash and sycamore despite being slightly lighter than these woods. The net result of this is that you need less of it to make a very rigid camera, so you end up with a significant weight reduction.

Alan

[[Maarten]]

Hey Alan,

this sounds very interesting. However ... I just got my hands on a calumet C1, from which I can use one of the plates to convert to collodion plate holder. This gives me plenty of freedom to use all the camera movements.
So building my own camera is a little bit on hold. Maybe I'll start this project in a few years.

Maarten