Bear spray.

[ignatiusjk]

Do any of you carry bear spray with you when you are in Yosemite or any other NP? I was walking the North Dome trail and came across a HUGE bear.Luckily he didn't see me.But I've been wondering if it is (or allowed) a good idea.I never worried about before but lately I have. Nothing ruins your day quicker than a bear attack.

[Bill L.]

I carry it in the western mountain parks, although not in the eastern parks. Yellowstone and the Tetons not only allowed it, but often recommended it for some of the trails in bear areas.

Cheers!
Bill

[John Kasaian]

With my luck I'd run into a bear that likes spicy food.
Unless you're in the habitat of really mean bears I'd be more concerned about the other critters.
Mammoth has some incredibly huge bears, but even they seem to be more interested in nabbing unprotected junk food than an "organic" photographer.
The rule of thumb for bears---if you can cover the bear with your thumb, thats as close as you'll want to get.

[Bill Burk]

I like that rule of thumb John.

Good thing California doesn't have Grizzly bears. And since you can't carry a shotgun in Yosemite, I suppose it would be a good idea to carry a can of spray.

Of course you should know how to read signs... Grizzly bear scat has bells in it and smells like pepper.

[ignatiusjk]

I like that rule of thumb John.

Good thing California doesn't have Grizzly bears. And since you can't carry a shotgun in Yosemite, I suppose it would be a good idea to carry a can of spray.

Of course you should know how to read signs... Grizzly bear scat has bells in it and smells like pepper.

Are you allowwed bear spray in Yosemite? I don't think they sell it in the park.

[ROL]

Never carried it anywhere in non-grizzly country, which includes Yosemite, and have laughed at those who do (it is allowed). Common sense and experience, which I may have lacked in my younger years in several legendary black bear encounters, will do more to protect you than bear spray. I will say that I believe, hopefully unnecessarily so, that the continuing range extension of predatory mountain lions in California, is a much more serious threat. I did carry holstered (its got to be at the ready) bear spray in Glacier NP for the first time ever this year, for last stand protection against griz and lion. I have to admit that after a couple of days of carrying it on the waistband of my camera pack, I very much enjoyed the sidearm feeling of its presence (insert testosterone filled grunt). However, when purchasing it, the question both my wife and I asked the clueless clerk was, more importantly to us, "Will it work on the residents of Stanley, Idaho?"

My only serious encounter with wildlife, other than occasional rattlers and ubiquitous marmots, was when I was attacked by a goshawk in upper Ribbon Creek west of El Capitan. Bear spray would not have protected me if I'd had it. I removed myself from further difficulty after a seven mile half blind and bloody march to the nearest road with a lacerated eyeball and broken ankle. The attack was the subject of much speculation until other park personnel reported similar attacks in later years. BTW, the goshawk is the official emblem of the South Korean Air Force, its flying prowess unmatched by any other raptor.

[ROL]

The rule of thumb for bears---if you can cover the bear with your thumb, thats as close as you'll want to get.

Well, the other rule is to never travel alone. Then you don't need to outrun the bear, only your partner.

[Pawlowski6132]

Do any of you carry bear spray with you when you are in Yosemite or any other NP? I was walking the North Dome trail and came across a HUGE bear.Luckily he didn't see me.But I've been wondering if it is (or allowed) a good idea.I never worried about before but lately I have. Nothing ruins your day quicker than a bear attack.

Nothing ruins a bears day more than getting sprayed in the freakin eye while just minding their own business.

[Thad Gerheim]

the question both my wife and I asked the clueless clerk was, more importantly to us, "Will it work on the residents of Stanley, Idaho?"

Hey, I resemble that comment, having lived around Stanley for more than 27 years. Why us? I spent Friday night there, it was -30 F so your answer is, that I would have liked some on my feet and hands if it wasn't froze solid in your canister! And also, I have two cans. How good of a shot are you at 30 feet? Back to the original question, I once in forty years of backpacking, OK twice, had a tough time chasing a bear out of my camp, 99% of the time they're just as scarred or curious as you are. Lately, I've heard of some close encounters of wolves so I sometimes carry the pepper spray. The best thing to carry in the wilderness is an elevated consciousness and enjoy your highly alert senses.

[Brian C. Miller]

Lots of sporting goods stores sell pepper spray in bear-sized canisters.

How to use pepper spray: when the bear approaches, spray the bear in the face, hitting the eyes and nose.
How not to use pepper spray: spray down your tent, and the ground surrounding your tent. Spray it on yourself. Roll yourself in sweet dough. Bears will visit promptly, as they like the taste of peppered meat in a sweet roll.

I like Fox Labs pepper spray (http://www.foxlabs.com/pepperspray.shtml), but on someone else... ;)

Another thing you can do is take a pet skunk with you. This little animal carries the equivalent of military CS gas.

One other thing: stop sticking your thumbs on bears. They do not like that.

[Vaughn]

I would never carry it in California -- I have close to black bears a few times. I am a tad more wary of Mountain Lions (especially the younger hungry ones looking for an unoccupied territory), but wonder if one would have the warning and/or the time to use pepper spray on a lion.

[Greg Miller]

The only bears to bother carrying bear spray for is Grizzlies. Totally unnecessary for black bears.

[Thad Gerheim]

The only bears to bother carrying bear spray for is Grizzlies. Totally unnecessary for black bears.

This may be true with your passive east coast bears, but not always with bears that see relatively few humans. I would advise against getting between a sow and a cub, not too close to an injured bear and sometimes in a bad year bears just get awful dang hungary for the food that you smeared on your pants. This is especially true in Alaska.

[Vaughn]

Getting between a black bear momma and her cub -- I 'm guessing that pepper spray would not help.

[ROL]

the question both my wife and I asked the clueless clerk was, more importantly to us, "Will it work on the residents of Stanley, Idaho?"

Hey, I resemble that comment, having lived around Stanley for more than 27 years.

Sorry about the painting with a broad brush, but I am still way beyond sensitive about being the subject of corporal assault for having California license plates. The kind of meth fueled, right wing, xenophobia exhibited in central Idaho only makes it a more dangerous place for everyone, and not because of the wildlife. Yeah, not even a little bit funny.

[Greg Miller]

This may be true with your passive east coast bears, but not always with bears that see relatively few humans. I would advise against getting between a sow and a cub, not too close to an injured bear and sometimes in a bad year bears just get awful dang hungary for the food that you smeared on your pants. This is especially true in Alaska.

Just because I live in the east doesn't mean I don't visit the West. I have been close to mother black bears and cub(s) in both the east and the west. In all cases the cub scampers up a tree (or runs straight towards mom) and the mother shows no signs of giving a squat. It is a myth that black bear mothers aggressively defend their cubs. They will only get aggressive if you get aggressive. There are no documented deaths in the continental US from black bear mothers defending their cubs. All deaths are from predatory males (except for one mother and cub who are thought to have attacked strictly to eat the victim).

But there are only 13 deaths from black bears in the continental US since 1960 (and not all of those were even in the wilderness; and 5 of the deaths were in the east or mid-west). You have a higher risk if death from pretty much any other cause that you can think of.

[Greg Miller]

This may be true with your passive east coast bears, but not always with bears that see relatively few humans. I would advise against getting between a sow and a cub, not too close to an injured bear and sometimes in a bad year bears just get awful dang hungary for the food that you smeared on your pants. This is especially true in Alaska.

And for what is is worth, east coast bears are not all passive. There are good sized populations of aggressive bears in places such as the Adirondacks and Smokies - I know from experience and have dealt with them (with no bear spray). But Aggressive does not = dangerous. Aggressive black bears just want food, and in almost all cases does not include human flesh.

[John Kasaian]

While weathered in up in Alaska, I spent a few days reading two volumes documenting contemporaty bear attacks in the western US. It was interesting stuff.
The most attacks were against older outdoors men who had some diminished senses (hearing, vision, smell, that sort of stuff) who "surprised" a momma bear.
The second greatest number were women on their period.
There was no mention of large format cameras.

I've never heard of a Large Format photographer getting eaten by a bear. If anyone has heard or expeienced a bear attack while photograpiung with a large format camera, I'd like to hear about it. Perhaps instead of buying pepper spray tourists should buy Large Format cameras as a hooligan bear repellant?
There could be a whole new window of opportunity here!

[Lachlan 717]

We don't use spray here in Australia.

The sharks swim around it.

The snakes hold their breath while they bite you.

The crocs close their nictitating membrane.

The spiders hide in your boots. If they can stand the smell in these, they can easily stand the spray.

And the only native bear we have here, the Drop Bear (the Koala isn't a bear), has developed immunity to it.

[adelorenzo]

I never take any encounter with a bear lightly, black or grizzly. I try to always carry bear spray and, while I haven't had to use it, I have been very close on a few occasions.

I have to add that some of the responses on this thread are showing a real lack of respect for these animals.

[Thad Gerheim]

Sorry about the painting with a broad brush, but I am still way beyond sensitive about being the subject of corporal assault for having California license plates. The kind of meth fueled, right wing, xenophobia exhibited in central Idaho only makes it a more dangerous place for everyone, and not because of the wildlife. Yeah, not even a little bit funny.

Please don't take it out on me if you had a bad experience in Idaho, but Stanley and Sun Valley are non-typical for Idaho and probably voted along the same lines as you, heck Sun Valley is mostly made up of Californians.

And Greg, please don't mistake me as aggressive, but I've had to throw stones at a bear three times, the same bear, from about 15 feet, deep in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness. I still rarely carry pepper spray, but hey if it makes a person feel secure, why not? I never bring a GPS or personal beacon and a cell phone wouldn't work even if I owned one. Please don't get political on me, I can understand your stereo-type for Idaho, but I think you'd be surprised if you knew me.

John, when I first spotted the bear, it was right after pulling my head out from under the darkcloth and looking behind me. Maybe, with their poor vision I looked like five legged bear! He was swimming across the river about forty yards above me and for a split second I thought about swinging the camera around and trying to get a shot of him. The light was fading, and I remembered that I hadn't hung my food in a tree yet, big mistake. He almost beat me back to camp, I had to stop and try to pelt rocks, I had two torn rotator cuffs and was throwing like a three year old. It was frustrating, painful and funny at the same time.

[paulr]

There have been black bear attacks in Teton National Park. The grizzly population there is low, and mostly in the far northern areas. Black bear behavior has inspired many local climbers and hikers to bring spray. I never have while there, but may in the future. An encounter last summer left me banging my ice axe into rocks and singing obnoxiously for fifteen miles, so I wouldn't surprise anyone else's mother.

I did bring spray on a two week trip to the Cirque of the Towers in the Wind River range a few years ago. That place has been a grizzly circus some seasons. But we didn't see any sign of bears the entire time.

[Scott Walker]

Bear spray is very much like a dive knife, you should always carry it.
They are both used in the same fashion, if you see a great white you use your knife to stab your dive buddy and swim away.
If you see a grizzly you spray your hiking buddy in the eyes and run away. :rolleyes:

On a serious note, I always carry it. I spend alot of time in grizz country and a gun is not always an option.
As Thad and a couple of others have expressed, common sense is the best defence.

[Bill Burk]

I never take any encounter with a bear lightly, black or grizzly. I try to always carry bear spray and, while I haven't had to use it, I have been very close on a few occasions.

I have to add that some of the responses on this thread are showing a real lack of respect for these animals.

That's a good point. Sorry for making light of a serious subject.

I'd recommend reading: Bear Attacks, their causes and avoidance, by Stephen Herrerro

And always check local postings and speak with local rangers about animal sightings and recommended best practices before venturing out...

[Jody_S]

Crap, I thought the thread was about a beer spray. Now there's a product that could be useful while hiking.

[Steve Smith]

I thought it was going to be a thread about the right to arm bears.


Steve.

[Leszek Vogt]

While on the subject, and this may be to John K., did you have any issues going through the border with a can or two of the spray ? I shall be embarking on an adventure to Alaska this Summer.

Les

[ruckusman]

Well, the other rule is to never travel alone. Then you don't need to outrun the bear, only your partner.

This is gold!

[ruckusman]

I got fancied once, unwantedly so, by a large hairy man - also called bears, whilst walking past a gay bar once

[knjkrock]

I think it is illegal to even check the spray in your luggage on a plane.

[Greg Miller]

Do any of you carry bear spray with you when you are in Yosemite or any other NP?

From the National Park System web site:

Other Weapons
The possession, use, or discharge of pepper spray (including bear spray), pellet guns, and BB guns in Yosemite National Park is prohibited.

[Greg Miller]

I have, and will continue, to carry bear spray in Grizzly country. I also respect the ability of black bears to do damage. But there are statistically so many other things to worry about in the wilderness than black bears. Bee stings kill and and put way more people in the hospital than black bears. If people are willing to carry the extra weight, I would rather they carry epi pens or better first aid kits, or a SAM splint, than bear spray.

There have been zero deaths from black bear attacks in the wilderness since 2010. The people who have died from black bears since 2010 were near their homes or caretakers of captive bears.

Only 1 death from black bear attack since 1980 in the continental US was a hiker on a trail. All other involve people near their homes, in a campground, or carrtakers of captive bears.

Yes, respect black bears. But the risk needs to be kept in perspective.

Black Bear deaths in continental US since 1900:
Colorado: 3
Michigan: 2
Several states with 1
California: 0
Montana: 0
Idaho: 0
Oregon: 0

[Steve Smith]

Crap, I thought the thread was about a beer spray. Now there's a product that could be useful while hiking.

Leave that to the Americans - they did invent spray on cheese!


Steve.

[Jac@stafford.net]

From the National Park System web site:

Other Weapons
The possession, use, or discharge of pepper spray (including bear spray), pellet guns, and BB guns in Yosemite National Park is prohibited.

When my wife and began a hike through Glacier (near Isaak Walton Hotel), the entrance had two very large signs. First was a caution regarding bears, how to cope and behave. The other was "No Firearms Allowed." She decided not to pursue the hike. The cognitive dissonance was profound. (The hotel sold the big cans of bear spray.)

But did they not change that ruling in 2010 to allow certain licensed individuals to carry?
See this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35484383/ns/us_news-life/t/new-law-allows-loaded-guns-national-parks/

Me, I will simply hike without the wife next time. :)

[Greg Miller]

When my wife and began a hike through Glacier (near Isaak Walton Hotel), the entrance had two very large signs. First was a caution regarding bears, how to cope and behave. The other was "No Firearms Allowed." She decided not to pursue the hike. The cognitive dissonance was profound. (The hotel sold the big cans of bear spray.)

But did they not change that ruling in 2010 to allow certain licensed individuals to carry?
See this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35484383/ns/us_news-life/t/new-law-allows-loaded-guns-national-parks/

Me, I will simply hike without the wife next time. :)

Yes, guns are allowed in some circumstances.

The OP was asking about bear spray in Yosemite. Bear spray is not permitted in Yosemite.

[Greg Miller]

When my wife and began a hike through Glacier (near Isaak Walton Hotel), the entrance had two very large signs. First was a caution regarding bears, how to cope and behave. The other was "No Firearms Allowed." She decided not to pursue the hike. The cognitive dissonance was profound.

It is surprising how many of the bear deaths involve hunters. The scary bears, brown (Grizzly) and Polar, are simply too big to put down quickly with most guns. Bear spray is actually more effective than guns when an attack occurs with one of these large aggressive bears. A gun shot or two may eventually kill the bear, but not quick enough to save your hide.

[Drew Wiley]

Bears are a nuisance in Yosemite in the same areas as uptight rangers and giardia polluted
water. As I understand it, it's illegal to use a firearm in the park on anything; but if you
just want to act like some "Yosemite Sam" jerk intimidating other campers, guess you now have some technical right to dress with an unloaded sidearm. Leave food out and bears
will be bears. I've never had a black bear conflict in my life in the Sierras, even when they
are conspicuously active nearby; but then, I never camp in those popular spots routinely
visited by problem bears. In the backcountry, they're quite shy.

[paulr]

I don't see any "cognitive dissonance" in a sign warning about bear danger and also forbidding firearms.

If you can't don't think you'll be safe in the bear's house without the ability to kill him, stay out of the bear's house.

But thinking pragmatically, Greg is right. Gun's have a lousy track record with bears. Pepper spray has an excellent one.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I don't see any "cognitive dissonance" in a sign warning about bear danger and also forbidding firearms.

If you can't don't think you'll be safe in the bear's house without the ability to kill him, stay out of the bear's house.

But thinking pragmatically, Greg is right. Gun's have a lousy track record with bears. Pepper spray has an excellent one.

Oh, I agree, Paul. My wife and I are in our late Sixties, each raised in rural areas where firearms were simply common, thus the dissonance which is benign and informative.

I give wildlife a wide berth for their sake, not just my own because I am in their 'house' as you suggested. Father taught me that very early. We had a practice of hiking into the mountains to just sit quietly for hours so that the animal life re-emerged to be watched. It is an amazing experience to see how human presence tromping through the woods has a scaring effect upon the native life.

Back to topics - I so wish I had a camera at that age (Five).

[Drew Wiley]

Shotguns are the norm in grizz habitat. When grizzlies were formerly abundant in SoCal
and the Sierra Madre, they probably enjoyed pepper spray. They probably even sprinkled
chile powder and guacamole on people before eating them. Black bears are more into
peanut butter and jelly.

[John Kasaian]

While on the subject, and this may be to John K., did you have any issues going through the border with a can or two of the spray ? I shall be embarking on an adventure to Alaska this Summer.

Les

No bear spray but a .30-30 Winchester Model 1894 with 170 grain soft points because having a firearm aboard light aircraft operating in the Alaskan wilderness in the survival kit is required by both Federal and Alaska law. Alaskan pilots often carry .44 Magnums (how do you shoot a rifle with a broken arm? You can't, and a broken arm is pretty much a given if the pilot survives a forced landing) but I couldn't because revolvers aren't aren't allowed to cross the Canadian border.
The sound of crunching aluminium sounds like a dinner bell to bears (this is true even in California as I worked downed aircraft SARs and I can honestly tell you that women's nylon panties are unaffected by bear scat.) In Alaska I did carry a huge container of peanut butter as the calories are also required under the same law...and a gill net...and a signal mirror...and a fire starter...and music wire for a snare...and a....(it's a looong list!)
The only time I heard about bears being a serious problem in Alaska is when they get used to people and people's garbage, then come into town looking for food. Alaskan bears do not like to be dissappointed at the buffet table.

[bobwysiwyg]

The sound of crunching aluminium sounds like a dinner bell to bears (this is true even in California as

Just curious, just how often do bears hear crunching aluminum in order to equate it with a free meal?

[Erik Larsen]

Just curious, just how often do bears hear crunching aluminum in order to equate it with a free meal?

Anytime a redneck in the campground smashes a beer can against their forehead:)

[John Kasaian]

Just curious, just how often do bears hear crunching aluminum in order to equate it with a free meal?
They appear to be quick learners.
Have you ever seen a map of Alaska with the location of every known every plane crash represented by a pin? It's quite colorful!
Bears have a thing for carrion, even for carrion wearing women's nylon panties and plane wreckage often contains carrion.
Bears also equate plastic boxes with Igloo and Coleman printing with delicious.

[Bill Burk]

Stephen Herrero's book recommends no repellents except caution and understanding of bears, acting aggressive toward black bears, electrical fencing for certain uses, chemical sprays in some circumstances and proper firearms in the hands of experts.

The problem with pepper spray he says, is that you have to be really close to deliver it and are likely to be too excited to use it properly.

So I bet Yosemite administrators figured people would just make things worse in bear encounters, so they banned the stuff. Safe bet.

I lived in the mountains for a few years. You hear about animal activity from the locals, that's why I suggest stopping by local restaurants and talking... For example you might hear "yeah, the bears have been coming down the hill this summer" - take that as a sign to be wary, as the natural food supply is scarce - and your food and garbage may be a big target.

I also encourage proper food storage - use available lockers, carry bear cans, Kevlar bags, or learn some good hanging technique as regulations require.

[Svelte]

I live in Alaska and carry both a gun and a costco sized pepper spray canister whenever i go in the woods. Ive used both to fend off bears. And both work amazingly.

[Heroique]

I’ve never carried a firearm into the wilderness just to protect myself from bears, but for years, I’ve carried this small can (below) on my waist.

I’ve never used it, and don’t expect I ever will, but I continue to come across plenty of bears in my state of Washington, including a grizzly (from a distance) in the N. Cascades. Only once have I surprised a bear at close range – a black bear – by rounding a boulder and meeting it face to face on the other side. The bear stood up, 10 feet away, and darted away in a panic. If I had cornered it, or if the bear had been a sow w/ cubs, I might have used my spray for the first time. And who knows, maybe the last.

BTW, the canister comes in two sizes – 8.1 oz. (7 sec. of spray, $45) and 10.2 oz. (9.2 sec. of spray, $55). I purchased the larger size, thinking if I ever found myself in a bad situation, the extra $10 would be the cheapest $10 I’ve ever spent!

[goamules]

...There have been zero deaths from black bear attacks in the wilderness since 2010. The people who have died from black bears since 2010 were near their homes or caretakers of captive bears.

Only 1 death from black bear attack since 1980 in the continental US was a hiker on a trail. All other involve people near their homes, in a campground, or carrtakers of captive bears.

Yes, respect black bears. But the risk needs to be kept in perspective.

Black Bear deaths in continental US since 1900:
Colorado: 3
Michigan: 2
Several states with 1
California: 0
Montana: 0
Idaho: 0
Oregon: 0

You forgot ..... The statistics I read say there have been [B]45 Black Bear related deaths since 1900. And there was a lady that was killed in 2010 by one while walking her dog. You're right, some were in campgrounds, rural neighborhoods, fishing cabins, etc., but not on "hiking trails."

I agree the risk is pretty small, but you are skewing your statistics a lot here. Selecting states with no deaths, giving caveats like "...on a trail..." "...in the wilderness..." and even using "deaths" as the criteria can give the false impression you have zero chance of being attacked by a black bear.

I know that in New Mexico when I was there in the 90s there were at least two very damaging attacks by them. One was a hiker pulled out of his tent and supposedly killed, if I recall correctly. But I don't see it here in this list of all people killed (again, no mention of attacked but not killed) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America#Black_bear

So just because you aren't killed, I'd hate to get pulled out of a sleep and gnawed on for a while! I read there have been 500 attacks/conflicts with Black Bears since the 1900s, so there's a little bit of danger there. I agree, it's still small. But I've encountered them several times (they all just ran away or didn't see me) in my life. If one out of 100 may attack....that's getting to be significant. Yes, I would carry bear spray when it's allowed.

[Photo Dave]

Another excellent example of a serious question taken seriously off track...

When I traveled to Alaska a year ago I didn't bother with border crossings with Bear Spray. Even the Denali bus they made darn sure the spray was "properly" stored before allowing on board. But the Rangers were carrying Air Horns (freon cans as boaters use) and I saw first hand they were impressively effective. Next time that's what I'll have... Very safe to carry... Very Effective!
Dave

[goamules]

Original question:

Do any of you carry bear spray with you when you are in Yosemite or any other NP? ...But I've been wondering if it is (or allowed) a good idea....



Another excellent example of a serious question taken seriously off track...
Rangers were carrying Air Horns...

It seems to me most of the responses have been on track, answering either part 1 (do you carry it), or part 2 (is it a good idea - which relates to risk calculations and alternatives to spray - like your air horn idea).

[John Kasaian]

What about deaf bears?:rolleyes:

[Scott Walker]

A bit off track from the OP’s question but still about bears.

A couple of months ago my wife and I went to Banff National Park for the first snowshoe treck of the season. Since it was the first one we decided on an intermediate-advanced trail that was fairly popular among outdoor enthusiasts and reasonably well traveled (maybe 2 dozen people on it in a day during the weekend). About an hour into the hike we came across the first group of snowshoers who were on their way back to the base of the mountain because they claim to have come across Grizzly tracks and a fresh blood trail about 30 minutes further up the mountain where the trail splits, so I asked all the necessary questions to determine what the risks were of us carrying on (mostly because the story didn’t sound right & I really didn’t believe that they had seen bear tracks of any sort and sort of guessed that they likely couldn’t tell the difference between a bear and a dog track) so we carried on. About 10 minutes later we came across another group who had heard about the so called bear sighting but thought it had been a black not a grizz and had seen no tracks or blood, so on we went. When we got to the fork in the trail there was no sign of blood or bear tracks but there were a few snow angels in the fresh powder and lots of dog tracks and just as we are ready to carry on Lorraine says Blood! I got that crappy feeling that I had just done something very stupid and put us into a life threatening situation, right until I saw the blood, sure enough it was red, and it was fresh, and there were quite a few droplets of it, and it was the wrong color of red to be blood, but I couldn’t place it. So we checked the area again for bear tracks just to be safe and after finding none we carried on with our treck (about another 90 minutes up the mountain). Along the way we would periodically come across a few droplets of the red stuff on the trail but no tracks other than snowshoes and dogs. Once we got to the end of the day trail we stopped for a bit of lunch and discovered a fairly large splattering of the red stuff we had been seeing on the trail. Turns out the Grizzly with the fresh kill was just a snowshoer with a leaky wineskin in their backpack. So I made myself a little red wine snow cone to go with my lunch.

[Greg Miller]

You forgot ..... The statistics I read say there have been [B]45 Black Bear related deaths since 1900. And there was a lady that was killed in 2010 by one while walking her dog. You're right, some were in campgrounds, rural neighborhoods, fishing cabins, etc., but not on "hiking trails."

I agree the risk is pretty small, but you are skewing your statistics a lot here. Selecting states with no deaths, giving caveats like "...on a trail..." "...in the wilderness..." and even using "deaths" as the criteria can give the false impression you have zero chance of being attacked by a black bear.

I know that in New Mexico when I was there in the 90s there were at least two very damaging attacks by them. One was a hiker pulled out of his tent and supposedly killed, if I recall correctly. But I don't see it here in this list of all people killed (again, no mention of attacked but not killed) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America#Black_bear

So just because you aren't killed, I'd hate to get pulled out of a sleep and gnawed on for a while! I read there have been 500 attacks/conflicts with Black Bears since the 1900s, so there's a little bit of danger there. I agree, it's still small. But I've encountered them several times (they all just ran away or didn't see me) in my life. If one out of 100 may attack....that's getting to be significant. Yes, I would carry bear spray when it's allowed.

You may find this video interesting from the de facto expert on bear attacks: http://www.nytimes.com/video/2011/05/10/science/100000000812441/stephen-herrero-on-black-bear-attacks.html

My statistics come from him. The states I quote with no deaths were states with the highest populations of black bears, so if anything those states make my case even stronger (how many black bears are there in Hawaii for gosh sakes?).

A few points he makes. The mother bear with cubs myth is in fact a myth. The fatal black bear attacks are predominantly single predatory males in stealth mode. They attack without you hearing them. Bear spray, or a gun, won't help you then, and it won't help you if you are being dragged out of your tent while sleeping.

Again this is black bears - I do carry bear spray in Grizzly country. I live an an area with the highest density of black bears in the continental US. They commonly encounter humans and so tend to be more aggressive than bears in he back country (they associate humans with food and have lost some of their natural fear). If I am going to carry extra weight, I think there are many other things that would be more valuable to carry than bear spray. Rattle snakes cause way more deaths than black bears, but how many people know how to treat a snake bite?

[Drew Wiley]

John - times have changed! My backpacking pals alleviated attracting bears with the sound
of aluminum with the simple fact that Pliny the Elder only comes in bottles. Sierra black
bears are more cultivated than bears elsewhere; and its simply a matter of common etiquette now to share a fine microbrew with them around the campfire. Maybe bears in
New Mexico will drink Coors, but not here. And that may be why some of them misbehave
in places like Yosemite, where outside tourists have not learned the necessary courtesy
to the local wildlife.

[John Kasaian]

John - times have changed! My backpacking pals alleviated attracting bears with the sound
of aluminum with the simple fact that Pliny the Elder only comes in bottles. Sierra black
bears are more cultivated than bears elsewhere; and its simply a matter of common etiquette now to share a fine microbrew with them around the campfire. Maybe bears in
New Mexico will drink Coors, but not here. And that may be why some of them misbehave
in places like Yosemite, where outside tourists have not learned the necessary courtesy
to the local wildlife.

One of the funniest bear stories was a group of fisherman at Granite Creek who had thier cooler "appropriated" by a California bear one evening. The bear sitting on it's haunches in the middle of camp taking can after can out, opening and relishing the beer but when it got a taste of Pepsi, tossing it over it's shoulder in disgust while the fishermen were cowering and watching from behind the trees.
If only I had a video camera along!

[Drew Wiley]

Ah Granite Creek! So many memories there! Wish I had a video camera when a bunch of
us pulled off our Bigfoot hoax and had grown men scurrying up trees faster than squirrels;
that is, till after about a week of terrorism one of them came out of a tent with a shotgun
and Bigfoot in his Hollywood King Kong costume (loaned by Wilbur Plaugher) ran off into the woods still wearing his huge floppy carved wooden footprint sandals!

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] the Rangers were carrying Air Horns (freon cans as boaters use) and I saw first hand they were impressively effective. Next time that's what I'll have... Very safe to carry... Very Effective!
Dave

And you don't have to be sure to use it upwind of the animal!

[Vaughn]

As a much younger man, I was backpacking in the Yolla Bolly Mountains (on a bit of a busman's holiday) and did not hang my food up. I got up around 2am or so to photograph the moon rising over some sugar pines. When I got back to camp a bear was getting into my food -- it saw me, grabbed a stuffsack of food and took off. I followed and I could hear it digging into the bag. When I caught up with it, it grabbed the bag, dropping some of the food and took off again. Chasing the bear, this repeated two more times until the bear got fed up with the interruptions and took off again and never stopped.

But he dropped enough of my food that I could still stay out the whole time.

But maybe it was Drew in a bear-suit?! :)

[David Lobato]

I haven't seen Doug Peacock mentioned yet. He supposedly stopped a charging bear by popping open an umbrella. He studied grizzlies extensively, all while carrying no defensive devices. His sharp wits and intuitions kept him safe with the bears.

[Vaughn]

A close friend was charged by a momma black bear two summers ago (Northern CA coastal range). He had tossed a rock towards what he thought was a 2+yr-old bear (non-cub), just to let it know that a person was around. Turned out the bear was smaller than he thought, and was indeed a cub. This must have pissed off momma who sprinted up the hill and all my friend had time to do was to grab a big stick at his feet and while yelling, wave it in front of the momma's face. She eventually backed off and left with the cub.

I do not know what the momma and cub 'myth' is, but I have come across enough sets of them and have seen their defensive stances they take to know I do not want to give the momma any reason to think I am interested in her cub(s).

[mmerig]

No bear spray but a .30-30 Winchester Model 1894 with 170 grain soft points because having a firearm aboard light aircraft operating in the Alaskan wilderness in the survival kit is required by both Federal and Alaska law. Alaskan pilots often carry .44 Magnums (how do you shoot a rifle with a broken arm? You can't, and a broken arm is pretty much a given if the pilot survives a forced landing) but I couldn't because revolvers aren't aren't allowed to cross the Canadian border.



From what I gather, the current Alaskan statute (Sec. 02.35.110) does not require firearms (not since Sept. 27,2001 anyway).

I think the 30-30 is too small to stop a big bear quickly, but worthwhile for shooting smaller fare for dinner if desperate. (I have had a similar-sized 32 Winchester Special since I was a kid (1960's), and would never plan on using it on a bear).

Handguns (revolvers) are restricted in Canada, but the laws seem to allow them (including a 44 mag) with some prior planning and applications to the CMP.

[adelorenzo]

Research has shown that bear spray is more effective than guns (http://news.byu.edu/archive08-Mar-bearspray.aspx) and that using a gun doesn't actually make you safer (http://news.byu.edu/archive12-mar-bearsandguns.aspx).


"It really isn’t about the kind of gun you carry, it’s about how you carry yourself,” said Smith, who has researched bears in the field for 20 years. “We need to respect an animal that could potentially take our lives."

I can never understand fact that anyone would not respect an animal that can easily kill you. Somehow as a species we have lost this basic understanding of how nature works. Then you get people who think it's OK to photograph a grizzly at close range (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/26/us/alaska-bear-attack/index.html) and end up getting killed.

Oh and if you think black bears are not to be taken seriously and that only grizzlies are dangerous. Have you ever had a close range stand-off with an aggressive black bear that tracked you through the bush? I have and I certainly wasn't thinking "Oh good, it's only a black bear I will be fine."

[mmerig]

There have been black bear attacks in Teton National Park. The grizzly population there is low, and mostly in the far northern areas. Black bear behavior has inspired many local climbers and hikers to bring spray. I never have while there, but may in the future. An encounter last summer left me banging my ice axe into rocks and singing obnoxiously for fifteen miles, so I wouldn't surprise anyone else's mother.

I did bring spray on a two week trip to the Cirque of the Towers in the Wind River range a few years ago. That place has been a grizzly circus some seasons. But we didn't see any sign of bears the entire time.

For the past 30 + years. I hiked and camped in the backcountry in or near Grand Teton National Park (worked on the adjacent Targhee and Bridger-Teton National Forest), climbed in the Tetons almost every week, and occasionally in the Wind River's. Over this time, the grizzlies have spread south along the Teton Range, and they are now common everywhere in the Tetons.

Two summers ago, a women riding her bike in Teton Valley (near Victor, Idaho) was chased by a grizzly. Last summer, a hiker was mauled by a black bear on the fringe of the Teton west slope, but without going into details, it was his fault. There were close calls with grizzlies too; most involved loose dogs that harassed the bear and ran back to the owner.

Despite being out in the woods alone 6 or 7 days a week all summer, I did not start carrying bear spray until a last summer when my employer sort of required it. It's not a macho thing -- for many years, bear spray was not available so I was not in the habit of carrying it. Also, I think paying attention is more important than feeling safer with a gun or pepper spray.

I have only been close (<100 feet) to one grizzly bear in the Grand Teton NP, and I saw him first and it was easy to get around him (it was a huge boar).

As for black bear encounters, I have been closer than 10 feet to 4 or 5 of them (so much for "paying attention" being more important). Two of these encounters were with sow & cub. One pair was sleeping (I heard soft breathing, but did not realize what it was until the mother stood up and the cub ran up a tree right next to me), and the other was during sun-rise and I could not see the bears (blinded) until I got close. The others were "round a corner and there it is". One other passed through camp on his way from one whitebark pine tree to another, paying me no apparent mind. None of these encounters involved bear aggression, and I did not have to yell or anything like that before the situation resolved itself. I would not have used bear spray in any of these situations.

The point is, if one spends enough time out there, you will run into a bear, but the chances are low and consequences are in your favor. Also, I am too lazy to make purposeful noise, so I probably encounter more bears because of that.

But as Mickey Mantle said in later life, "Don't be like me". It does not hurt to carry bear spray, and it helps bear conservation -- a bear that runs away, rather than hurting a person, is less apt to be "removed" from the population by bear managers.

By the way, grizzlies are still rare in the Wind Rivers, mostly in the north, and the "grizzly circus" at the Cirque of the Towers (and nearby Big Sandy Lake) has involved black bears as far as I know; they are historically pesky there.

[ImSoNegative]

out here in the eastern appalachia, its the young male black bears you have to be careful around, they are out to prove themselves i suppose, had a standoff with one sometime back, didnt have any spray, had a glock though, was glad i didnt have to shoot him. several years ago a black bear mauled a child in eastern tenn.

[Heroique]

There’s a biological fact about black bears that few people know, and which I have a tough time accepting as the proud resident of a Western state.

Eastern black bears are generally much larger than Western black bears. A 700 pound black bear may not be common, but neither is it unusual in a state like Pennsylvania. Let’s just say a Montana black bear would be wise to avoid a Pennsylvania black bear.

Also, a myth to help soothe the wounded pride of our Western-state members. Black bears, it is said, learned to climb trees because they fear grizzlies. Grizzlies stay on the ground because they fear nothing. I’m proud that grizzlies are making a come back in my state; the black bears must think otherwise.

Fact or myth, black or grizzly, I’m convinced that bear spray is a useful tool for experienced outdoors people, who are, ironically, the people who least need it.

[Drew Wiley]

A grizzly bear is on our state flag, though extinct here since the 1920's. But at one time
Calif had a massive population of grizzles, and they had a fearsome repuatation. Yet despite growing up around quite a number of old Indians, I never heard a single story of
a grizzly incident, and only one second-hand story the mauling of a white pioneer. Black
bears didn't even get much notice. But the Indians did kill grizzlies; so it would seem that
bears have a lot more to fear from humans than the other way around. And they probably
learned that fear a long, long time ago. But I have yet to see anyone carrying a can of
pepper spray around in this state, and would probably laugh at them if they did. More likely, it's the black bears that deserve the can of spray!

[John Kasaian]

From what I gather, the current Alaskan statute (Sec. 02.35.110) does not require firearms (not since Sept. 27,2001 anyway).

I think the 30-30 is too small to stop a big bear quickly, but worthwhile for shooting smaller fare for dinner if desperate. (I have had a similar-sized 32 Winchester Special since I was a kid (1960's), and would never plan on using it on a bear).

Handguns (revolvers) are restricted in Canada, but the laws seem to allow them (including a 44 mag) with some prior planning and applications to the CMP.
I was flying up there in '92. The firearm requirement wasn't considering for fending off bears, but for getting food, which is why the calorie requirement, fishing tackle, gill net and snare wire was also required.
The bears made it an interesting problem---one certainly dosen't want to share a medium sized game critter with a grizz but draging a bloody caribou quarter into camp strikes me as a splendid way to invite Mr. Bear in camp for a nosh. Small game with a .22 would be near ideal but if Mr. Bear was being a bad citizen I'm afraid a .22 wouldn't be any use other than probably much needed comic relief. The Pros almost never carried shotguns because of the thin tubes---a shotgun with a bent barrel (which is likely in a crash) is useless. The S&W .44 revolver impressed me---with shot cartridges it could bag small tasty game like hares, ptarmigan etc... easy to shoot and reload with one hand (with practice) and credible bear medicine at close defensive range with (all six) full house rounds.

None of this makes any sense with my local California bruins. They've always treated me quite nice (but then I'm not nylon panty wearing carrion either!)

Fending off an enraged bear with an umbrella? That must have been a total looser bear. All the other bears must laughing at him with their claws in the shape of an "L on their foreheads and taunting him about that to this very day.

[Drew Wiley]

Did you get to the gravel-pit museum in Chowchilla yet, John? That skeleton of a short-faced bear .... now that's a bear that would send a grizzly running the other direction! -
and just about anything else except that Harlan's ground sloth.

[John Kasaian]

Did you get to the gravel-pit museum in Chowchilla yet, John? That skeleton of a short-faced bear .... now that's a bear that would send a grizzly running the other direction! -
and just about anything else except that Harlan's ground sloth.

It's on my list!

[Bill L.]

While weathered in up in Alaska, I spent a few days reading two volumes documenting contemporaty bear attacks in the western US. It was interesting stuff.
The most attacks were against older outdoors men who had some diminished senses (hearing, vision, smell, that sort of stuff) who "surprised" a momma bear.
The second greatest number were women on their period.
There was no mention of large format cameras.

I've never heard of a Large Format photographer getting eaten by a bear. If anyone has heard or expeienced a bear attack while photograpiung with a large format camera, I'd like to hear about it. Perhaps instead of buying pepper spray tourists should buy Large Format cameras as a hooligan bear repellant?
There could be a whole new window of opportunity here!

Perhaps QT would like to jump in on this? IIRC several years ago he posted photos of a brown bear in Alaska trying to use his 4x5 when he was set up for a sunrise shoot...

[Vaughn]

I photographed a black bear in September with my 4x5 -- he walked into a 45 second exposure, but did not stick around long enough to register on the film. I had a herd of elk do the same thing a long time ago (but using 8x10).

[Brassai]

It is surprising how many of the bear deaths involve hunters. ... A gun shot or two may eventually kill the bear, but not quick enough to save your hide.


Not true. Most hunters that run into grizzlies are after elk. Standard elk rifles will easily drop a bear in its tracks. That said, bear spray is worth carrying and much lighter than a .338 Rem magnum if you aren't hunting.


George B.

[Heroique]

Standard elk rifles will easily drop a bear in its tracks.

By comparison, the Lewis & Clark journals give multiple reports about the Grizzly – each report, during their ascent of the upper Missouri River, quite entertaining and typically accurate.

To be sure, the animal’s ferocity (after being shot) never ceases to astonish them.

They and their men used muzzle-loading Kentucky rifles (whose power was equivalent to, say, a thirty-two caliber Winchester), and time and again, these expert outdoorsmen and hunters report just how many well-placed shots it takes to drop one these enraged beasts. One grizzly was shot 10 times, 5 times through the lungs, before it fell.

L&C certainly recognized their rifles were sufficient for white-tailed deer and black bears back home, but not adequate for Grizzlies. “I must confess that I do not like the gentlemen,” Lewis writes, “and had rather fight two Indians than one bear.”

One wonders what they would have thought about bear spray. ;^)

[Matt Stage]

Have to ask. Do bears get angry about having industrial strength pepper sprayed in their eyes? I have heard that bears are about as smart as dogs. I had a puppy who was pepper sprayed by the mailman. She was a totally harmless 8 month Airedale puppy and had just bounced out the door to meet someone new. The direct hit of pepper gel was all over her face and burned her eyes. Took me hours to clean it off. After that, and for the rest of her days she hated the mailman. Whenever he came by she would get very aggressive and attack any piece of furniture or rug near the door. This was the same for any mail carrier, but she had no problem with the UPS or Fedex guys. So will the bears associate pepper spray with hikers and become more aggressive towards them by association?

[Steve Smith]

Humans violating the bear's territory? I think the bear has more right to kill the human than the other way round.


Steve.

[Heroique]

So will the bears associate pepper spray with hikers and become more aggressive towards them by association?

Matt, that’s a sad story about your Airedale puppy.

I don’t have an answer to your question – but may be able to offer a few related remarks...

Grizzlies are intelligent & independent – certainly smarter than black bears, and probably smarter than clever dogs. To be sure, their intelligence makes it difficult to predict their behavior. Some grizzlies who are victims of pepper spray (or gun shot wounds) might be smart enough to avoid future encounters w/ humans; others might be smart enough to stalk and successfully “rid” their territory of their aggressors. Still other grizzlies might switch between the two behaviors, depending on experience, mood, and whim – on what they’re “thinking” at the moment. It’s a fascinating animal, worthy of our reverence.

[Michael Lloyd]

I spent a couple of weeks in Grand Teton NP with a couple of friends of mine back in June. One carried spray, one didn't. One morning we hiked a couple of miles into the "woods" to photograph an owl nest and it's occupants (twins). On the return trip we spotted a fresh (steaming) pile of bear scat. That was a little unnerving. The non bear spray carrying friend put the bear spray carrying friend in the lead ;) I didn't see any bells in the scat by the way.

During my June visit to GTNP I found that it was orders of magnitude more enjoyable to photograph anything but bear and moose. The zoo that ensues when 399 or 610 appear is nauseating. The disrespect that some of the local photographers show for the rangers is hard to believe. On the day that I left I got a call that one of two orphaned cubs, named Brownie and Ash, had been run over by a motorist and killed. The bear was in sage brush, not on the road. I don't recall which one it was or what the circumstances were. Many times I saw people driving well over the speed limit so it's not surprising that someone went "off road" and ran over a cub. Sad but not surprising.

At few years ago I had a plan to camp in the YSNP back country but that fell through. During the process of investigating bear proof containers, bear spray, and other bear-isms I came across a few articles on the internet (you can't put anything on the internet if it's not true, right?) that stated the Black Bear was more prone to track a human walking through the woods, out of curiosity, than a grizzly bear is. They, allegedly, are more curious.

I think that if I were headed to the back country I would carry bear spray. If I was photographing in the roadside zoo that is GTNP in the summer I would not. The rangers and brigade seem to do a remarkable job of maintaining order. Here in TX we have limited population of black bears in Big Bend NP and to my knowledge there have been no attacks from them. The mountain lions will occasionally act up but what do you expect from a cat?

Timothy Treadwell knew grizzly bears inside and out. I don't think he had bear spray...


For the past 30 + years. I hiked and camped in the backcountry in or near Grand Teton National Park (worked on the adjacent Targhee and Bridger-Teton National Forest), climbed in the Tetons almost every week, and occasionally in the Wind River's. Over this time, the grizzlies have spread south along the Teton Range, and they are now common everywhere in the Tetons.

Two summers ago, a women riding her bike in Teton Valley (near Victor, Idaho) was chased by a grizzly. Last summer, a hiker was mauled by a black bear on the fringe of the Teton west slope, but without going into details, it was his fault. There were close calls with grizzlies too; most involved loose dogs that harassed the bear and ran back to the owner.

Despite being out in the woods alone 6 or 7 days a week all summer, I did not start carrying bear spray until a last summer when my employer sort of required it. It's not a macho thing -- for many years, bear spray was not available so I was not in the habit of carrying it. Also, I think paying attention is more important than feeling safer with a gun or pepper spray.

I have only been close (<100 feet) to one grizzly bear in the Grand Teton NP, and I saw him first and it was easy to get around him (it was a huge boar).

As for black bear encounters, I have been closer than 10 feet to 4 or 5 of them (so much for "paying attention" being more important). Two of these encounters were with sow & cub. One pair was sleeping (I heard soft breathing, but did not realize what it was until the mother stood up and the cub ran up a tree right next to me), and the other was during sun-rise and I could not see the bears (blinded) until I got close. The others were "round a corner and there it is". One other passed through camp on his way from one whitebark pine tree to another, paying me no apparent mind. None of these encounters involved bear aggression, and I did not have to yell or anything like that before the situation resolved itself. I would not have used bear spray in any of these situations.

The point is, if one spends enough time out there, you will run into a bear, but the chances are low and consequences are in your favor. Also, I am too lazy to make purposeful noise, so I probably encounter more bears because of that.

But as Mickey Mantle said in later life, "Don't be like me". It does not hurt to carry bear spray, and it helps bear conservation -- a bear that runs away, rather than hurting a person, is less apt to be "removed" from the population by bear managers.

By the way, grizzlies are still rare in the Wind Rivers, mostly in the north, and the "grizzly circus" at the Cirque of the Towers (and nearby Big Sandy Lake) has involved black bears as far as I know; they are historically pesky there.

[Thad Gerheim]

Even if human fatalities by black bears are extremely unlikely, proper food handling should be observed out of respect for the bears. As some say, a fed bear is a dead bear. This site has some good information about camping and hiking, although I think some of it is being overly cautious. http://www.americanbear.org/awareness/camping-hiking.html In the encounters I had, I never felt that the bear wanted to attack me, he wanted my food. The encounter I had in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness was thirty miles from the trailhead I came in on, I was by myself in November. One should be careful.

[adelorenzo]

Not true. Most hunters that run into grizzlies are after elk. Standard elk rifles will easily drop a bear in its tracks. That said, bear spray is worth carrying and much lighter than a .338 Rem magnum if you aren't hunting.

George you should read the links to the studies I posed a few pages back. The truth is it is almost impossible to 'drop a bear in its tracks' while being charged and that a gun of any size does not make you statistically safer in a bear encounter.

Have you ever shot a bear or any large animal?

[Drew Wiley]

Well there is a time-tested spray that nature itself has perfected: you can always carry
a live skunk!

[Michael Lloyd]

I know of more than one bear killed with one shot at 1016 yards with a .338-300. The bear crumples on impact. So "almost impossible" is a stretch. Have I done it? No... I don't hunt bear. I don't begrudge those that do, it's just not my thing

This is a compilation. The second video is the bear shot. The distance is so far that it's not real graphic. I have one of his rifles and I can tell you 1000 yard shots on a target are pretty easy with the right technique. The 300 gr bullet leaves the barrel at 2,800 fps and at 1,600 yards it carries more energy than a 7mm Rem Mag at 900 yards (my first long range rifle w/ wild hog kills out to a little over 1,000 yards) and the bullet routinely passes through with devastating results.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX4aqmbaGIo&feature=share&list=PL57DDB03803696CBA


George you should read the links to the studies I posed a few pages back. The truth is it is almost impossible to 'drop a bear in its tracks' while being charged and that a gun of any size does not make you statistically safer in a bear encounter.

Have you ever shot a bear or any large animal?

[Jac@stafford.net]

Humans violating the bear's territory? I think the bear has more right to kill the human than the other way round.

Steve.

That's why we need to revise the 2nd amendment to: "The right to arm bears"

[Drew Wiley]

An enraged grizz all pumped up with adrenaline, suddenly coming toward you head-on is a completely different scenario from an opportunistic carefully-placed shot at an unaware specimen.

[goamules]

I'm a hunter and long range target rifle shooter (open sights though), but why is this thread being turned into a discussion on bullet stopping power and extreme range game sniping? That has nothing to do with a hiker asking if pepper spray is worth carrying.

Back to the question, yes, I'd carry pepper spray if that was my only option, and if allowed. Especially if I was hiking or riding alone as I used to. When in a crowd of more than 3 people, studies show the chance of being attacked by a bear become almost nil.

[Steve Smith]

That's why we need to revise the 2nd amendment to: "The right to arm bears"

That was my comment on the third page of this thread!


I know of more than one bear killed with one shot at 1016 yards

Why shoot a bear which is so far away?


Steve.

[Eric James]

Why shoot a bear?

[Drew Wiley]

We shoot bears because we have a trigger finger. They can't shoot, so use what they
have - claws and teeth. If the contest was put into the court system rather than
technology versus brute force, only the lawyers would win.

[Michael Lloyd]

Why shoot a bear?

Don't know... because it's bear season? I don't really get it either. It's not my thing.

[Michael Lloyd]

In Grizzly country you are supposed to wear little bells to make noise and warn them of your presence as well as carry pepper spray to scare them off.

You can tell you are in Grizzly territory because the bear poop smells like pepper spray and has little bells in it.

My buddy Dan says the same thing. Timothy Treadwell said "you bad bear" and it worked all but one time...

[Greg Miller]

Grizzlies are intelligent & independent – certainly smarter than black bears, and probably smarter than clever dogs.

That would make grizzlies quite smart. Because black bears are extremely smart. Adirondack bear have figured out how to open bear canisters. In particular a new brand (about 5 years ago) that took me 10 minutes to open after reading the instructions. The bears figured it out in the dark with no instructions. Canisters are required in the High Peaks of the Adirondacks because the black bears have defeated every hanging system tried.

[Greg Miller]

The mandatory bear video for backpackers in Glacier National Park states that you are safer from grizzlies when sleeping in a tent than in the open. How a few mil thick piece of nylon makes a human safer from grizzlies is puzzling (the rangers say the bears respect the structure...).

[Michael Lloyd]

That would make grizzlies quite smart. Because black bears are extremely smart. Adirondack bear have figured out how to open bear canisters. In particular a new brand (about 5 years ago) that took me 10 minutes to open after reading the instructions. The bears figured it out in the dark with no instructions. Canisters are required in the High Peaks of the Adirondacks because the black bears have defeated every hanging system tried.

Totally off topic but that reminded me of a Southpark quote

Stan: Dude- Dolphins are intelligent and friendly
Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonaise :cool:

back to our irregularly scheduled bear stuff...

[bobwysiwyg]

T..(the rangers say the bears respect the structure...).

Bet they don 't sleep in tents. :)

[Heroique]

That would make grizzlies quite smart. Because black bears are extremely smart. Adirondack bear have figured out how to open bear canisters. In particular a new brand (about 5 years ago) that took me 10 minutes to open after reading the instructions. The bears figured it out in the dark with no instructions. Canisters are required in the High Peaks of the Adirondacks because the black bears have defeated every hanging system tried.

Now that’s pretty smart! :D

I’ve never heard of a Grizzly figuring out a bear canister, but it’s probably because it would take more effort than a quick incision w/ his more powerful claw. Kind of like slicing through the Gordian knot, instead of figuring out how to untie it.

However, if a comparison is to be made with a grizzly’s intelligence & opportunism, one might ask, for example, how the larger bear finds enough food on barren ground (Northern Alaska) to sustain his massive size & daily energy needs. No bear canisters up there – and much less of most everything else, too, including snow-free months.

But we should all defer to a final perspective from the Eskimos (and other native cultures), who have endless stories to back up their worshipful claims.

[Greg Miller]

But we should all defer to a final perspective from the Eskimos (and other native cultures), who have endless stories to back up their worshipful claims.

And have survived and raised families for centuries with no bear spray ;)

[rdenney]

...The most attacks were against older outdoors men who had some diminished senses...

It sounds to me as though large-format photographers should be afraid...very afraid.

Rick "just sayin..." Denney

[Brian K]

I wouldn't go into back country without it.

[Drew Wiley]

I use Kevlar and Spectra combat fabric bear bags (Ursack) because they weigh barely
(bearly?) more than an ordinary food duffle, and I'm more concerned about friendly marmots than bears per se. They're officially approved in all the Sierra except a few high
traffic areas, including Yos NP (although most of its own real backcountry has no significant bear issues). I've managed to backpack for half a century without canisters
or bears getting into my food. It's always a possibility, but just not high on my priorities.
Most of the injuries I hear of is when someone inexperienced thinks they can drive a determined bear away. They are in fact bigger than us. And I still remember how half-tame grizzlies behaved in Yellowstone back in the day, or in Yos Valley when they were
deliberately fed. Once that kind of Yogi Bear culture develops, they train their cubs to
do the same. Now there's a zero-tolerance policy in much of the Sierra backcountry, and
a problem bear with be tracked and euthanized rather than deported to become a pest
somewhere else.

[Jody_S]

I've spent some time in bear country, the only bears I've ever wanted protection from were Polar bears. I don't get the obsession with guns and such while out in the woods. Yes, a bear could attack you (I've met survivors of black bear attacks). You're much more likely to die from something like exposure, a heart attack, or terminal stupidity. If you're going to make preparations for going out in 'the wild' safely, bears wouldn't be the 1st contingency on my list to prepare for (unless, of course, you're going to Polar bear country in autumn, which I've done).

[rguinter]

This may be true with your passive east coast bears, but not always with bears that see relatively few humans. I would advise against getting between a sow and a cub, not too close to an injured bear and sometimes in a bad year bears just get awful dang hungary for the food that you smeared on your pants. This is especially true in Alaska.

Have to say I agree with Thad. For many years I spent lots of time in the north Maine woods just East of Katahdin. My late uncle had a cabin there on the East Branch Penobscot River.

The black bears there are big as a Volkswagen Beetle and can run over 35 mph. And several very close encounters over those years convinced me they have little fear of humans. My opinion for what it's worth.

Bob G

[Annie M.]

I live among black bears I see them at least a dozen times a year and have a few close encounters (within 10 feet) each year... I always carry bear spray and have never had to use it. Bears are individuals and you have no way of knowing what their previous experience has been, with that in mind you never know exactly what they will do. At least they usually attack from the front with some warning behavior... the cougars quietly sneak up from behind.

[Drew Wiley]

Cougars attack humans??? Now that is rare. They're abundant in this state, and so are
people. I used the calculator one day to figure out that, realistically, humans have about a
25000% more likely chance of being killed by a Pekinese dog (yeah, that one breed) than
by a mtn lion. It happens, but at an extraordinarily rare frequency. The cougars have been
coming in right up the street from me for wild turkeys, and are starting to behave like bobcats in that respect. Don't think twice about them. I've been around them my whole life, just like black bears. Feel lucky even to see one time to time.

[Vaughn]

Of course one of the more recent couger attacks was up here where I photograph -- not a fatality, but pretty dang close...would have been if the wife was not beating on the couger as it had her husbands head in its mouth. Actually, it was infections that came closet to killing the husband. It happened right where I use to take my three boys hiking as soon as they could actually walk a mile or two (4 yrs old or so). Tasty little tid-bits they would have been!

But after watching the video of fellows dropping a bear and other game at 1000+ yards, I am a touch more worried about my fellow man that the wildlife!

[Eric James]

...I used the calculator one day to figure out that, realistically, humans have about a
25000% more likely chance of being killed by a Pekinese dog (yeah, that one breed) than
by a mtn lion....

That's 5000 deaths by Pekinese dogs in North America alone - my!

[Annie M.]

I live on Vancouver Island ... there were several cougar attacks this summer... the odds increase dramatically when you are in their territory. I agree it is wonderful to see them... I have been lucky (and down wind) that way too!

This little one treed by the neighbors dog... other neighbor lost a dog to the cougar a few years ago by the time we got to him much of his body had been eaten... carry bear spray.

[Drew Wiley]

Vaughn - that incident with the old man in Del Norte Woods is the only recent incident in
the whole state I'm aware of. There was a much publicized kill by a cougar on a jogging
trail above Sacto; but it turned out to be a homicide merely scavanged by a cat. I had a
three-legged crippled cat stalk me once, and know of several incidents where cats charged
people they thought were competing for the same prey animals. But yes, right here in the
SF Bay area five kids were killed by pekinese in one year. Add that to the fact that there
are over 500 ER incidents per year in SF alone for domestic doggies, and several fatalities,
and that makes cougars look pretty benign. But as Calif suburbanizes more and more into
their territory, nobody wants cougars getting habituated to humans by discovering pets
are easy prey, or by getting hemmed in without sufficient elbow room as on Vacouver Is.
Nonetheless, I was pretty pissed when cops shot a couple of cougar kittens hiding below
someone's deck the other day rather than calling wildlife or animal control.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh ... rambling on, but yes, Pekinese are considered a dangerous breed, esp to infants.
They were in fact originally bred as guard dogs with a temper. But per LF outings, I've
been charged numerous times by bulls. No red darkcloth for me, thank you. I've been watched at close range by curious bears several times, as well as wild boars (far more
dangerous than bears or cougars in my opinion). Truly wild cougars can be treed by a
chihuaua. But they do have a slow learning curve, as Vancouver Is suggests. But along
with wolves and black bears, we have some of the least dangerous big predators in the
world - and they all have lived alongside humans for thousands of years. I don't recall anything in recorded Calif Indian lore about cougars being a threat to men; rather, they
had a solid reputation for extreme secrecy. Grizzlies had just the opposite reputation.

[Annie M.]

"Nonetheless, I was pretty pissed when cops shot a couple of cougar kittens hiding below
someone's deck the other day rather than calling wildlife or animal control."

This is absolutely heartbreaking.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Cougars attack humans???

I live in rural Minnesota and the rare sightings of cougars were almost always considered mistaken. Then a cop car camera got some good photos. Holy Cow! The real deal! Later the DNR caught one, tagged and released it. How stealthy and shy of humans was this one? About a year later it was killed by a car in Connecticut. It crossed half of the United States without being detected (or at least reported). That also demonstrates how much of the USA is rural.

[Leszek Vogt]

That cougar must have had many snacks down the rural alley. I saw one in the campground at Sequoia Natl PK....and my mind started to visualize how easy the access is....and the children playing about. This one was the size of couple of St Bernards (healthy). Needless to say, I defected the tent and slept in my hatchback that night....having some metal around me. Not so sure that the spray could help.....if you have these gnarly teeth in your flash (pardon the drama). I think it would work on the bears, tho.

Les

[Drew Wiley]

When I was just a kid one of my dad's employees shot the third biggest cougar on record,
a conspicuously tubby 9ft tom well over 300 lbs. He was offered a sum of money by Field
& Stream magazine to publish his life and death account of how he killed the savage beast.
But that all fell thru when his wife accidentally spilled the beans and mentioned how there
was a ruckus in their garbage can at dawn and he had simply stuck the gun barrel thru
the bedroom window.

[Tim Peare]

I've been carrying it in Tahoe only because of the mountain lions. The bears in Nor Cal are very non threatening. I've even had surprise encounters with them within ten feet and they were more scared than I was. The can I carry around is made by MSI (Mace Security International) (http://www.mace.com/mace-pepper-spray-gel/outdoor-animal-bear-mace-pepper-spray/mace-bear-pepper-spray.html)

[drew.saunders]

This month's Backpacker magazine is the "Bear Issue" with a whole bunch of articles on bears. Regarding bear spray, in short: carry it, but learn to use it before you have to use it.

[Drew Wiley]

Leszet - this past summers jaunt into Sequoia no issues with wildlife except one rattler that slithered into camp down in the canyon. Getting back there into country more spectacular than Yos Valley and absolutely no one else around other than us three, withe
bears everywhere, scratching trees to mark territory and hearing them chomp berries at
nite just a few yards away, but never once actually breaking our informal camp perimeter.
Didn't see any of the alleged heavy cougar population in the lower elevations, but all such
critters are shy. Even the bears during the daytime would stay under cover of thimbleberries and other shrubbery to nap and people watch. Had one stretch his legs once in awhile right beside a fabulous 300ft waterfall. A lot of SEKI isn't known to the
general public, and I'd like to keep it that way. Still places you can walk a week without
seeing anyone else.

[Michael Lloyd]

Big Bend has had a few cougar attacks

I think this one is a little shady (like someone fell down and then created something more exciting) http://www.nps.gov/bibe/parknews/nov-2012-lion-attack.htm

This one is the real deal- http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/6-year-old-boy-survives-mountain-lion-attack-state-park-article-1.1018562

This list, spanning 100 years, kind of puts the risk factor (low) in perspective- http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks.htm

And since this is actually a bear thread, something from Wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

[John Kasaian]

Leszet - this past summers jaunt into Sequoia no issues with wildlife except one rattler that slithered into camp down in the canyon. Getting back there into country more spectacular than Yos Valley and absolutely no one else around other than us three, withe
bears everywhere, scratching trees to mark territory and hearing them chomp berries at
nite just a few yards away, but never once actually breaking our informal camp perimeter.
Didn't see any of the alleged heavy cougar population in the lower elevations, but all such
critters are shy. Even the bears during the daytime would stay under cover of thimbleberries and other shrubbery to nap and people watch. Had one stretch his legs once in awhile right beside a fabulous 300ft waterfall. A lot of SEKI isn't known to the
general public, and I'd like to keep it that way. Still places you can walk a week without
seeing anyone else.

I've noticed that the bears in SEKI aren't as big as they were when I was a kid. I thought it was my imagination but I asked one of the rangers anyway. She said that the super-sized bears they used to have were that way because they ate a lot of garbage and for the last 15 or 20 year simproved food storage for campers and more secure garbage containers had put the critters back on a more natural diet
They still have plenty of "super bears" in Mammoth though!

[Drew Wiley]

John - I know that bears are still a significant pest down in Cedar Grove, up at Kearsarge
Pass and adjacent Rae Lks area - but these are heavily visited areas where one would
expect such problems. Had a long sit down in the handmade rocking chair at the Roaring River backcountry patrol cabin last yr, just before heading into remoter country, and the
longtime ranger there filled us in with all the details. Quite different than Yosemite. Basically, rogue bears get one warning and are chased off. If they don't learn the lesson
they're not deported but culled. And those backcountry bears do look very healthy with
shiny coats and are relatively small; and there are plenty of them. The policy seems to be
working; and an added benefit is that the rangers aren't all anal and uptight about carrying
heavy bear canisters around, except in the handful of proscribed areas noted above. The
same goes down in the Mineral King area. But when I enter Yos NP, its usually from the
south (Granite Cr or Norris Cr) or over the top from the North boundary, and bears seem
to be a non-issue in those quieter areas too.

[Drew Wiley]

Michael - my mother knew of a 3-yr old girl killed and eaten by a cougar in Oregon; but
that was back even before WWI. Two joggers in Colorado were killed; but that was by
a captive adolescent cougar that was released and didn't know how to hunt properly,
had become habituated to people, yet wasn't really a true pet either. And the problems on
Vancouver Is are known. We did have one genuine incident here on the Calif coast, which
Vaughn referred to already. And I suppose it's only a matter of time before one of our local
suburbs has an incident with someone trying to shoo a cat with a broom or something. They are getting bolder. But it's amazing how long it's taking them.

[rguinter]

Research has shown that bear spray is more effective than guns (http://news.byu.edu/archive08-Mar-bearspray.aspx) and that using a gun doesn't actually make you safer (http://news.byu.edu/archive12-mar-bearsandguns.aspx).



I can never understand fact that anyone would not respect an animal that can easily kill you. Somehow as a species we have lost this basic understanding of how nature works. Then you get people who think it's OK to photograph a grizzly at close range (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/26/us/alaska-bear-attack/index.html) and end up getting killed.

Oh and if you think black bears are not to be taken seriously and that only grizzlies are dangerous. Have you ever had a close range stand-off with an aggressive black bear that tracked you through the bush? I have and I certainly wasn't thinking "Oh good, it's only a black bear I will be fine."

I too experienced one of these standoffs at about 10-feet distance. The bear had been tracking me for a couple miles through thick brush. Happened circa 1995 in the area east of Mt. Katahdin. I was unarmed. Never went back in those woods unarmed again.

Anyone wanting more info can PM me. I am lucky to be alive but was able to defend myself in a very unusual manner.

Bob G. rguinter@yahoo.com

[rguinter]

[QUOTE=Steve Smith;978792]Humans violating the bear's territory? I think the bear has more right to kill the human than the other way round.


Steve.[/QUOT

Interesting argument.

Until one realizes that all territory on earth was once "bear's territory" until it was settled.

Bob G.

[rguinter]

Matt, that’s a sad story about your Airedale puppy.

I don’t have an answer to your question – but may be able to offer a few related remarks...

Grizzlies are intelligent & independent – certainly smarter than black bears, and probably smarter than clever dogs. To be sure, their intelligence makes it difficult to predict their behavior. Some grizzlies who are victims of pepper spray (or gun shot wounds) might be smart enough to avoid future encounters w/ humans; others might be smart enough to stalk and successfully “rid” their territory of their aggressors. Still other grizzlies might switch between the two behaviors, depending on experience, mood, and whim – on what they’re “thinking” at the moment. It’s a fascinating animal, worthy of our reverence.

Heroique has an interesting comment about animal behaviors. Reminds me of a poster I once saw on the wall in an animal testing lab. The caption read, "Under perfectly controlled experimental conditions a test animal will behave - As it Damn Well Pleases!"

Years later after some unexplainable experiences with wild animals I've modified this a bit: "Under uncontrolled environmental conditions a wild animal will behave - As it Damn Well Pleases!"

So my opinion?... best to bring the bear spray et al.

Bob G.

[Drew Wiley]

One of my favorite vintage Far Side cartoons was the one that showed a mauled hunter
lying on the ground and two bears standing beside him, one holding his wallet and the other shuffling thru his credit cards.

[C. D. Keth]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/n64atlas/various%20pics/bearsign.jpg

[David Lobato]

One of my favorite vintage Far Side cartoons was the one that showed a mauled hunter
lying on the ground and two bears standing beside him, one holding his wallet and the other shuffling thru his credit cards.

My favorite Far Side cartoon showed a peaceful happy bear drinking from a stream. Then a hunter sneaks up from the bushes and shoots him. The last frame showed the bear stuffed in a standing menacing pose in the hunter's living room.

I like this thread because of so many posters who spend time outdoors. Good group here to be associated with, besides big cameras. I've seen several bears in the wild, spent a nervous night at a lake surrounded by huge piles of fresh scat (containing no bells or pepper), knew a woman who was dragged from a tent at Yosemite, knew a crazy friend who resisted food raiders with thick sticks and foolish bravery, knew a guy who shot one in California and vowed to never kill again and his friends who all got trichinosis from that bear, had a mountain lion stalk me, and of course read many stories about bear/human interactions. Personally I've been in far more danger from unpredictable weather and exposure at dizzying heights. Common sense, preparation, and caution (and running out of film) keep us returning home.

[Heroique]

If it’s a mountain goat, forget the pepper spray.

“Chase it off by yelling & throwing rocks,” says Olympic Nat’l Park.

(No grizzlies here, but killer goats roam the high meadows.)

[Vaughn]

One of my favorite vintage Far Side cartoons was the one that showed a mauled hunter
lying on the ground and two bears standing beside him, one holding his wallet and the other shuffling thru his credit cards.

My favorite Far Sides (and my boys, too) is the one where there are three fellows in sleeping bags sleeping around a campfire -- two bears come across their camp and say, "Sandwiches!"

[Heroique]

My favorite Far Sides (and my boys, too) is the one where there are three fellows in sleeping bags sleeping around a campfire -- two bears come across their camp and say, "Sandwiches!"

I missed that one, but I do recall another Far Side w/ two polar bears.

They’re sitting on their haunches, enjoying a meal next to an Eskimo’s broken igloo.

“I love these!” one bear says. “Crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside.”

[Eric James]

And there's the one with bear in the crosshairs pointing at the bear next to him. Gary Larson's work is a national treasure.

[Roger Cole]

I'm a hunter and long range target rifle shooter (open sights though), but why is this thread being turned into a discussion on bullet stopping power and extreme range game sniping? That has nothing to do with a hiker asking if pepper spray is worth carrying.

Back to the question, yes, I'd carry pepper spray if that was my only option, and if allowed. Especially if I was hiking or riding alone as I used to. When in a crowd of more than 3 people, studies show the chance of being attacked by a bear become almost nil.

I think if I were in grizzly country I might carry it even if it was not allowed. Being ticketed (very unlikely if you keep it out of sight and keep your mouth shut anyway) beats the hell out of being mauled by a bear.

[Roger Cole]

Have to say I agree with Thad. For many years I spent lots of time in the north Maine woods just East of Katahdin. My late uncle had a cabin there on the East Branch Penobscot River.

The black bears there are big as a Volkswagen Beetle and can run over 35 mph. And several very close encounters over those years convinced me they have little fear of humans. My opinion for what it's worth.

Bob G

Well worth noting, the fact that behavior of even the same species is colored by their environment and experience. I've been in the mountains of east TN a lot, having grown up there and worked at a TV transmitter on Holston mountain on sleep over shifts for years. One of the other engineers would put out bird feed for birds and squirrels, and that brought in the bears (until the manager made him stop.) I went up on a maintenance shift one night to find three black bears, two rather large, in the driveway. They didn't run from the truck and I didn't get out. Blowing the horn several times sent them ambling away, as if it annoyed them and they were just done being there more than being scared. (In semi-defense of the old man who fed the birds though, bears, at least more than one sighted every couple of years, were a pretty new population there. Even ten years before you'd probably have never seen a bear there no matter how much food you left out.)

I've hiked and photographed on that same mountain though and the only bears I've seen have been a couple, or one bear and one black shape I think was a bear, seen from the road who beat retreat when they heard my vehicle coming. I've never seen one on foot when I make it a point to be a bit noisy. Bears who haven't learned to associate humans with food are generally more afraid of you than you are of them. Only when they've made that association does that seem to no longer hold.


One of my favorite vintage Far Side cartoons was the one that showed a mauled hunter
lying on the ground and two bears standing beside him, one holding his wallet and the other shuffling thru his credit cards.


I missed that one, but I do recall another Far Side w/ two polar bears.

They’re sitting on their haunches, enjoying a meal next to an Eskimo’s broken igloo.

“I love these!” one bear says. “Crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside.”

I recall a cartoon in Dragon magazine once years ago of a large dragon holding a helpless knight in armor and talking to a little child dragon saying, "Once you get past the hard outer shell the inside is good eatin'."

[Bill Burk]

My take-away from Stephen Herrero's Bear Attacks was that there isn't much data to go on... Bears are unpredictable and likely to be more so in the future... And be especially wary in years when there aren't very many berries.

[Thad Gerheim]

Here we go, some advice by an Idaho fly fishing guide. An expert on all things, kind of like Peter Lik and a few around here. This is the advice we tell out of state photographers, the ones that want to know exactly where to place their tripod. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Db6moaCuk8

[Drew Wiley]

The average bear has better taste than to devour anything it has to Lik.

[Vaughn]

The average bear has better taste than to devour anything it has to Lik.

When I was a wilderness ranger, I have seen bear wander by and take bites out of a decomposing horse, so they might like Lik if he was allowed to age a few weeks in the summer sun.

[Michael Lloyd]

When I was a wilderness ranger, I have seen bear wander by and take bites out of a decomposing horse, so they might like Lik if he was allowed to age a few weeks in the summer sun.

Not if they had seen his television show :cool:

[Michael Kadillak]

Unbelievable that thus thread has gone this long on a subject that is so distant from the average persons reality check. Fact. If you announce your presence bears of all species will usually get out of your way. Grizzlies are a horse of a different color but will still get out of your way if properly allowed to hear of your presence in the area. Huckleberries only glow in areas of NW Montana that have previously been involved in a forest fire. Grizz like the berries and know where they grow. My uncle went into prime huckleberry picking territory each year near Kalispell for over 20 years and called out to the bears to let them know that he was picking berries with them and not once did he have a problem. He could smell and hear them and never was challenged for his intrusion into the area. You do not need bear spray or a .458 Win Magnum over your shoulder if you have half a brain. Just like the sign at Fishing Bridge in Yellowstone Park that prohibits any camping because of the grizzly bears there. When knuckleheads set up a tent there late at night and get attacked and killed, the park service offers their condolences to the victims and calls it a day. It is called natural selection.

[Scott Walker]

Last summer for the first time, Parks Canada, in their infinite wisdom placed the following restriction on hikers in Banff National Park.
"Until Sept. 15, it will be mandatory for hikers to travel in groups of at least four. At least one of the individuals will be required to carry bear spray"

If you decided not to obey the rules you could be charged.
Being charged requires a mandatory court appearance where a judge can impose a fine of up to $25,000 under the National Parks Act.

Parks officials stated that they would only enforce the new regulations on the Minewanka Loop which is a very popular 32 km trail near the Banff town site.

[Drew Wiley]

By far the most dangerous animal in Yellowstone is the bison, not the grizzly. Do they make
bison spray?

[lenser]

Drew,

I remember a long ago campfiret talk by one of the Yellowstone Rangers in which he related the story of a couple out to get close up images of one of the bison. The husband kept encouraging the wife to throw and arm across the bull's neck and when she refused, he took her place and handed her the camera. The photo she got was one of him being gored under the ribcage and tossed well into the air. I can't remember if he survived or not, but it sounded pretty bad. Anyway, the whole point of his talk was how dangerous the wildlife....and especially the bison....can be in the park. Of course that was particularly so when compounded by stupid human tricks.

[Scott Davis]

Yeah- if you want a close portrait of a bison, rent a 600mm lens. They're nearsighted and bad-tempered. And that's on a good day. Considering they weigh only somewhat less than a small rhino, think what they can do to your car, let alone you, if you piss them off. I'd actually be more afraid of a bison than a bear. A grizzly is far less likely to feel threatened by you than a bison is, and trying to stop a charging bison is like trying to stop a freight train with a full head of steam.

[Drew Wiley]

The whole point with bears is to let them know you are there with bells and singing etc.
That should work for the bison too. Stand out in the middle of a grazing meadow where
they can see you; and for the sake of their eyesight, wear bright red. Wave your arms,
and preferably have a dog along which likes to chase the calves. That should gets their
attention. In the meantime, I'm just waiting for some elk bull to gore a nosey photographer over here at Pt Reyes.

[John Kasaian]

By far the most dangerous animal in Yellowstone is the bison, not the grizzly. Do they make
bison spray?

The reminds me of the famous vaudeville one-liner:
"Pardon me, but do you have a match?"
"Yes. Your breath and a buffalo's fart.":rolleyes:

[Drew Wiley]

John - is the big Blasingame breeding ranch still out there past Academy? They used to raise a lot of bison. Just at the toe of the hill there was steep long ditch which was one
of the primary pronghorn stampede locations for the local Yokuts. That's where the Pliocene version of the San Joaquin drained. It was diverted a couple of times by the
big lava flows of Table Mtn, and at one time actually entered the Kings drainage, though
way back then the gradient was much less than now since the main Sierra uplift hadn't
transpired. I never trusted those bison, esp with no tree cover anywhere. I'd travel in the
ditches as much as possible.

[Vaughn]

...I remember a long ago campfire talk by one of the Yellowstone Rangers in which he related the story of a couple out to get close up images of one of the bison....

Last time I was in Yellowstone (4 or 5 yrs ago) there was a bison laying down about 10 feet from a boardwalk. Tourists were taking photos and a ranger giving a tour came by and told everyone to keep moving...including telling a woman who was pushing a stroller but standing well away from the beast that she could go past the bison...that it would be okay as long as she kept moving. As the stroller passed the bison, it startled and jumped up and scared the bejeebers out of everyone. The woman was not pleased with the red-faced ranger!

[Drew Wiley]

A bull is a bull. I remember an old hereford bull that my mom used to swat with a broom to
chase it out of the garden. Seemed about as benign as they came. My young bride was a
city girl unfamiliar with cowpieology. We we walking my sister's dog up the road (open range) and the dog started barking at a calf. My wife was wearing her bright red goosedown jacket (she still has it). That ole bull heard the dog but was staring at my wife.
"Why is that bull staring?", she asked, "he must be curious". "He's not curious, we better
keep moving", I answered. "I want to see what he does" ... "NO you dont!" Then the big
critter charges. We both jump into a muddy ditch and crawl thru the culvert running under
the fence. She arrives back at the house covered with mud and everyone cracks up (we've all been chased by bulls many times before).

[Roger Cole]

By far the most dangerous animal in Yellowstone is the bison, not the grizzly. Do they make
bison spray?

By far the most dangerous animals out in any woods are humans.

[Roger Cole]

Isn't the red a myth? I thought they had poor if any color vision and the red cape was for the human viewers of bullfighting, with the bull actually responding to the movement.

[Drew Wiley]

How many bulls have you been around, Roger? You're welcome to run your own objective
tests. I'd be happy to supply a red darkcloth.

[Roger Cole]

How many bulls have you been around, Roger? You're welcome to run your own objective
tests. I'd be happy to supply a red darkcloth.

Quite a few actually. Well, probably a half dozen. My brother in law raised cattle and used to graze them on our property. Most of them were completely docile as long as you didn't harass them. I remember one with a bit of a bad attitude but I never noticed that it had anything to do with color of clothing or the like. He was just surly all the time. I grant that I never intentionally waived different color cloths at him to see if the color made a difference, though.

[Roger Cole]

Wikipedia article on bullfighting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting)


"It is a common misconception that the color red is supposed to anger the bull, because bulls, in fact, are colorblind.[10][11] The cape is thought to be red to mask the bull's blood, although this is now also a matter of tradition."

[Graybeard]

My wife and I have encountered black bears three times now-

Once on the Appalacian Trail in Shenandoah NP - a sow with two cubs - strictly speaking, the south end of three bears running north very quickly.

Twice in the Adirondacks; once a skinny juvenile walking away from a dumpster in Long Lake (NY) and a second time a different teenager walking along a parallel trail a hundred yards from he one which we were on north of Speculator (also NY). Neither one seem the least concerned with out presence. When we backpack or canoe camp, the food goes up in a tree at the end of a line and we clean the fish a long way from the camp.

[Drew Wiley]

Well consider the source, Roger. Guess you could do a little vet research, cause I don't
really care if they have cones that see red as a primary hue like we do, or some physiological mechanism that makes red stand out like a red filter does per pan film, making it appear brighter per - really don't care - but they sure as hell perk up at anything bright red. It doesn't take a matador to figure that out. Everyone in rodeo knows it too. So does every farm hand who values his life. You can take your turn. I've been chased
by too many bulls already, and frankly, don't run anywhere near as fast as I once did!

[Roger Cole]

I can look in more authoritative places, and I'm getting curious enough to do so when I have time. For all the scorn heaped on Wikipedia it tends to be pretty accurate overall. I suspect they are colorblind and can't tell a red coat or cloak from a green one. I can't prove it, and even authoritative sources couldn't prove it, but I'll look into it more.

[Drew Wiley]

They'd probably be Wicki-Peeed-in-their-pants if they ever actually tested that hypothesis. I think that was a lesson learned back when mostly naked folks learned not
to adorn themselves with red ochre on the same day as foraging around aurochs.

[Roger Cole]

History is full of "things everyone knows" that turned out to be wrong. Everyone knew tomatoes were poisonous too.

http://www.colour-blindness.com/general/myths/

They apparently can distinguish some colors but they don't get angry about red or any other color. They get angry because fighting bulls are bred for aggressiveness, already stabbed several times, and then taunted with the cloak.

http://www.colormatters.com/color-matters-for-kids/how-animals-see-color

Mythbusters tested this one:

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-database/color-red-makes-bulls-go-ballistic.htm

MythBusters set out to find a way to test this myth — carefully. They decided to put makeshift matadors into an arena, each holding a flag of a different color, and wait for an angry bull to see red.

The red, blue and white flags got equal, half-hearted attacks when they were motionless. In order to elicit an aggressive charge response from the bull, the flags had to be waved.

Turns out, the color red isn't what causes bulls to attack. In fact, bulls don't seem to have any color preference at all. They'll charge whichever object is moving the most, which means this old myth can get tossed right out of the ring.

Myth - busted. It is, in fact, a different kind of bull.

[Scott Walker]

By far the most dangerous animals out in any woods are humans.

Yup, by a long shot

[C. D. Keth]

Last time I was in Yellowstone (4 or 5 yrs ago) there was a bison laying down about 10 feet from a boardwalk. Tourists were taking photos and a ranger giving a tour came by and told everyone to keep moving...including telling a woman who was pushing a stroller but standing well away from the beast that she could go past the bison...that it would be okay as long as she kept moving. As the stroller passed the bison, it startled and jumped up and scared the bejeebers out of everyone. The woman was not pleased with the red-faced ranger!

When I was maybe 8 years old, I remember getting a "never, ever do what those people are doing" lecture in Yellowstone. An Asian family were getting their little kid to go stand with a sleeping bull bison for a photo op.

[Michael Kadillak]

When I was maybe 8 years old, I remember getting a "never, ever do what those people are doing" lecture in Yellowstone. An Asian family were getting their little kid to go stand with a sleeping bull bison for a photo op.

I heard of an Asian guy that got to close to a bison for a photo and the animal took three long steps and launched the guy 15 feet into the air in less than a second. He was dead on impact and looked like he was a 100# sack of spuds that fell to the ground out of the back of a produce truck. Truly a sickening sight. The National Park Service did absolutely nothing to the animal upon seeing the footage much to the dismay of the victims family. Yet no matter how many languages they use and how much emphasis on deathly risk is conveyed to the visitors on this issue, park rangers continue to have to regularly arrest visitors and kick them out of the park for their own safety. Sometimes I see park visitors filming Orientals that seemingly cannot comply with these fundamental rules to see if they are going to capture their stupidity on disk. They all pile out of their car and run towards the animals when they see them near. For the life of me I cannot understand if it is a cultural disconnect or something else because I know that they have been told in their language the park rules.

[Roger Cole]

Too many anthropomorphic animal cartoons maybe. Some people just don't understand that wild animals are wild. They are not big (or small or whatever) fluffy domesticated pets.

[Vaughn]

Unbelievable that thus thread has gone this long on a subject that is so distant from the average persons reality check...

And no one has mentioned Hitler-spray yet!

[Drew Wiley]

Like I said before, Roger, consider the source. Some bulls are relatively benign, some are relatively aggressive. Point in case, and ordinarily benign bull chased my
wife when she was just standing there in a red coat - it didn't chase me or the dog which was running all around actually pestering the calf. I have a guy here
at work that is color-blind to everything but blue, but he can still identify red because every tint of red, weak or saturated, appears very bright to him. Don't
know if this is related at all. But if you want to risk your life testing all this, go ahead. Would make some good entertainment in a rodeo ring. And yes I grew up
around rodeo hall-of-famers whose career job was to tempt bulls. I suspect they knew what they were talking about. And yeah, I owned a pasture full of cows,
and had ranches all around me - so I think I am a little more authoritative on this subject than some cable channel which also broadcasted Bigfoot documentaries.

[C. D. Keth]

I felt a little bad including that the family was Asian, but there does seem to be a cultural belief to many Asian tourists that anywhere tourists commonly go is safe, clean, and disneyfied. Most other tourists get it so I have to wonder of there are poor translations of safety bulletins or if it's something else.

[Vaughn]

I was driving with some relatives from Australia (two cars) and the other car almost drove off the road due to their excitement of seeing an example of America's unique and exotic wildlife -- in this case, a ground squirrel.

[Drew Wiley]

I can be downright mean. Tourists over here on the Point are walking around with their binoculars and field guides and start asking me bird questions because they
see that big Ries tripod attached to my pack and assume that I'm carrying a huge spotting scope. I'll make up some ridiculous name for a common turkey vulture
or crow and get them all excited about the first spotting of such a rare species north of the equator. Or I had to warn some kids on their first token backpack
trek of 1-1/2 miles about our carnivorous deer (responding to a bear question). My dad liked to point to cattle all oriented to the same direction on the side of a
hill and explain how they were specially bred as "sidehill cows" with legs shorter on one side than the other, so that they would always walk around the hill in
that one orientation. City mice think country mice are naive, but they're thinking the same thing about the city mice.

[C. D. Keth]

My dad liked to point to cattle all oriented to the same direction on the side of a
hill and explain how they were specially bred as "sidehill cows" with legs shorter on one side than the other, so that they would always walk around the hill in
that one orientation.

That's a good one. I need to remember that.




City mice think country mice are naive, but they're thinking the same thing about the city mice.

While I live in LA right now, I grew up in a pretty small town in PA. There's nothing that gets me angry faster than people here referring to country folks as podunks, hicks, ignorant, backwards, etc. Just like you say this country mouse thinks the average native Los Angeleno is batsh!t crazy!

[Vaughn]

...Just like you say this country mouse thinks the average native Los Angeleno is batsh!t crazy!

Hey! I resemble that remark! But I moved to Nor Cal (and I aint talking about central CA, you know, SF Bay Area) 40 years ago, but I don't know if that makes me more or less crazy!

Vaughn

[C. D. Keth]

Hey! I resemble that remark! But I moved to Nor Cal (and I aint talking about central CA, you know, SF Bay Area) 40 years ago, but I don't know if that makes me more or less crazy!

Vaughn

I wasn't here and didn't exist yet, but I think Los Angeles was a very different place 40 years ago. You could also be in the sane minority who drives like they don't want to die and for whom courtesy is not a completely foreign, quaint concept. ;)

[mmerig]

Huckleberries only glow in areas of NW Montana that have previously been involved in a forest fire.

A small point, but huckleberries occur far beyond NW Montana, including mature forest that may have (or not have) burned in the last century or more given the proper site conditions (cool, moist, slightly acidic). So, bears can be in non-burned areas eating berries and I have seen many bears doing so.

[John Kasaian]

This reminds me of a sign I saw at a pack station
;
For people who like to ride fast, we have fast horses
For people who like to ride slow, we have slow horses
And for people who don't like to ride, we have horses that don't like to be ridden.

[Roger Cole]

Like I said before, Roger, consider the source. Some bulls are relatively benign, some are relatively aggressive. Point in case, and ordinarily benign bull chased my
wife when she was just standing there in a red coat - it didn't chase me or the dog which was running all around actually pestering the calf. I have a guy here
at work that is color-blind to everything but blue, but he can still identify red because every tint of red, weak or saturated, appears very bright to him. Don't
know if this is related at all. But if you want to risk your life testing all this, go ahead. Would make some good entertainment in a rodeo ring. And yes I grew up
around rodeo hall-of-famers whose career job was to tempt bulls. I suspect they knew what they were talking about. And yeah, I owned a pasture full of cows,
and had ranches all around me - so I think I am a little more authoritative on this subject than some cable channel which also broadcasted Bigfoot documentaries.

You can test this without risking your life. Get enough head start. I'm willing to do that if the opportunity presents itself. In fact I think my BIL has a bull now (pretty sure he has a steer or two destined for the freezer but I'm not sure if the full equipment is required in order to precipitate a rage on seeing the color red.) It is also possible that some bulls are conditioned to anger at red, maybe by associating it with being stabbed in practice.

All scientific, as opposed to anecdotal, evidence is that they don't care about color. I'll go on believing that. I'm willing to test it, under conditions I consider very low risk, when I get the chance but I'm not going out of my way to do so now.

Oh and it doesn't matter if the network broadcasts shows about Bigfoot. Mythbusters certainly don't buy into Bigfoot. Nor, to be fair, do they consider it a good topic:

Are there any topics that are off-limits to you guys?

There are several categories we don't touch: what [James] Randi would call woo-woo [and] what we call oogie-boogie. I'm still ashamed we ever went near pyramid power as a story to test. All of those mystical things. Dowsing is an open question that we've been thinking back and forth about for years whether or not to do it on the show. We're never going to look for the Loch Ness Monster. We're never going to look for Bigfoot. We're not going to try to prove a negative. We are always going to look for something that we can actually get our hands on and do tests toward the goal of coming to a conclusion.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/mythbusterss_adam_savage/

[Roger Cole]

A small point, but huckleberries occur far beyond NW Montana, including mature forest that may have (or not have) burned in the last century or more given the proper site conditions (cool, moist, slightly acidic). So, bears can be in non-burned areas eating berries and I have seen many bears doing so.

Something we at least call huckleberries grow wild on Unaka mountain up in my home part of TN. My dad usually likes to go pick them every year. They make delicious pies. One of his friends was picking from a bush once and encountered a black bear eating from the other side of the bush. They spotted each other pretty much simultaneously when one or the other moved a limb, and both startled and fled quickly in opposite directions.

[Vaughn]

And we have huckleberries here on the Redwood coast -- two varieties...an evergreen variety with blue berries, and one that loses it leaves in the winter and has red berries. I have gotten hungry enough to eat the blue ones bear-style -- put the end of the branch in my mouth and pull it out, leaving the berries in my mouth -- along with some roughage (leaves) and some protein (whatever bugs happen to have been on the branch).

In the Yolla Bollys, I have seen the bears munch down the manzanita berries, so no competition there with humans! And seeing bear scat that is nothing but whole manzanita berries, I can imagine that such a diet really cleans the bears' digestive track!

[Roger Cole]

I don't know if the TN/NC ones are the same, but they sure are tasty in pies. They're ok raw but a bit more tart than common tame blueberries, a bit too tart for my tastes raw though far from inedible. But the pie...

Ok /OT. :D

[Vaughn]

Ours are sweet -- my favorite based on taste and volume, but the thimbleberry is my favorite NW berry based just on taste.

Also the thimbleberry is called the "Charmin of the Woods".

[Thad Gerheim]

Quit it, you guys are making me salivate, huckleberry milkshakes, pancakes and pies are my favorite! And there's whortleberries too, the slightly smaller tarter version that grows in the colder drier climates around here. Awe, but with all the wildfires we had last year, it's going to be bushels and bushels of morel mushrooms to dry and freeze this year. But beware of nasty ticks, bears, bison, bulls, rattlesnakes, rednecks and did I mention ticks those little blood suckers are aggressive! !:(

[C. D. Keth]

Quit it, you guys are making me salivate, huckleberry milkshakes, pancakes and pies are my favorite! And there's whortleberries too, the slightly smaller tarter version that grows in the colder drier climates around here. Awe, but with all the wildfires we had last year, it's going to be bushels and bushels of morel mushrooms to dry and freeze this year. But beware of nasty ticks, bears, bison, bulls, rattlesnakes, rednecks and did I mention ticks those little blood suckers are aggressive! !:(

All worth it for morels. My favorite feature of fall where I grew up in PA is venison tenderloin medallions with morels and the iron skillet (it has to be an iron skillet) deglazed with a little red wine and made into a sauce.

[Jody_S]

From bear spray to bigfoot and huckleberry milkshakes in 18 pages. And, far as can I remember, not a single reference to LF photography. This is exactly what I've come to expect from LFPF. Hitler would not have approved of this thread. Nor would MLK. ;)

[Bill Burk]

Did I already tell the story about when Bigfoot yelled out to warn me as I approached a black bear eating a pine cone in Belknap Grove?

[C. D. Keth]

From bear spray to bigfoot and huckleberry milkshakes in 18 pages. And, far as can I remember, not a single reference to LF photography. This is exactly what I've come to expect from LFPF. Hitler would not have approved of this thread. Nor would MLK. ;)

But I hear Lenin, being Russian, loved long stories with lots of tangents.

[Vaughn]

From bear spray to bigfoot and huckleberry milkshakes in 18 pages. And, far as can I remember, not a single reference to LF photography. This is exactly what I've come to expect from LFPF. Hitler would not have approved of this thread. Nor would MLK. ;)

Then you missed my reference of having a black bear walking into my scene I was photographing with a 4x5...:)

Bill:
Did I already tell the story about when Bigfoot yelled out to warn me as I approached a black bear eating a pine cone in Belknap Grove?

I am confused, was it you or the bear that was eating the pine cone?

[Stephen Willard]

In 2005 I fended off a mountain lion attach on my two llamas with rocks. Both my llamas and I were in camp when the attack happened. I new something was going to occur long before the lion arrived because of how my llamas were acting. This gave me time to gather some big rocks. So when the very big tom showed up in camp I was bouncing rocks off it as pots and pans were flying in the air and my llamas were going berserk.

I can assure you that defending yourself against a mountain lion attack or even a bear attack with rocks is NOT the way to go. Since then I have armed myself to the teeth with bear spray with backup canisters, four bear proof food containers, and bear bells on my llamas and myself. I can stay out for 30 days at a clip before I have to return for fresh film and provisions, and for the past two years, I have been shooting in the backcountry of northern Wind River in prime grizzly bear country. Boy, do I love my bear spry....

88002 88003

88005 88004

[David Lobato]

Roger, a similar thing happened to one of my female pioneer ancestors. She was picking berries from a thick bush and unknown to her a bear was on the other side. She got a good scare and the family got a good laugh.

When I was a Scoutmaster we were planning a 1998 summer camp in the mountains of central New Mexico and were forewarned about bears. A young scout with his mother asked me, "Mr. Lobato, what kind of bears do they have there?" I replied "Hungry bears." The looks on his and Mom's faces were priceless.


Something we at least call huckleberries grow wild on Unaka mountain up in my home part of TN. My dad usually likes to go pick them every year. They make delicious pies. One of his friends was picking from a bush once and encountered a black bear eating from the other side of the bush. They spotted each other pretty much simultaneously when one or the other moved a limb, and both startled and fled quickly in opposite directions.

[John Kasaian]

This is a truly amazing thread!:)

[bobwysiwyg]

This is a truly amazing thread!:)

In length or substance? :rolleyes:

[Bill Burk]

Then you missed my reference of having a black bear walking into my scene I was photographing with a 4x5...:)

Bill:


Did I already tell the story about when Bigfoot yelled out to warn me as I approached a black bear eating a pine cone in Belknap Grove?


I am confused, was it you or the bear that was eating the pine cone?

Many parts are edible, but no... it was the bear eating the pinecone. Story doesn't work as well the other way around... Actually is a true story though.

[John Kasaian]

Newsflash from the YNP!
Several cases of Chalula Hot Sauce have been reported missing from the Ahwanee Hotel kitchen.
Bear paw prints were found all over the crime scene.:rolleyes:

[Drew Wiley]

That all pretty much sums it up .... spray chili powder on your llamas, but never huckleberry jam, that is, unless the bears involved were known to frequent
MexTex brunches at the Ahwahnee ...

[Vaughn]

I appreciated the bears in the Yolla Bollys -- they dug up the yellow jacket nests along the trails. I figure being stung in the mouth as they munched down the yellowjackets must be like eating good spicy Mexican food for us!

Having the bears dig out the nests was a lot better than having one of the mules stepping into one -- and the rodeo that was often the result!

Vaughn

[Drew Wiley]

I've stepped into a couple of those nests myself, once crossing a rotten log up on the Oregon coast.
Got about twenty stings. Maybe that's why I don't like spicy food!

[Roger Cole]

Ouch. I got three stings once and wound up shivering all night and puking my guts out. 20 might kill me. No, I don't carry an epi-pen - that was the only time I've ever had that kind of reaction and I did get stung three times. But I don't go on overnight trips into the wood either, just shortish day hikes. If I were, I might look into that (I did carry Benadryl when out riding my bike dozens of miles from civilization.)

I got stung twice last summer by other wasps under my deck (and went on the warpath and destroyed their nests) without any ill effects except the usual localized sting and itch.

But I love spicy food, hold the wasps.

[Drew Wiley]

Roger - might sound like a tale, but in fact true ... I was 12 at the time and the wild bee swarms would
almost blacken the sky like a big cloud (Oregon woods again). They honeycombed about twenty linear
feet of blackberry bushes down by my Grandma's pond in just two days (a LOT of bees!!). It was beside a gravel path, and my brat cousin just had to pick up a stone and pitch it at the colony. Never
saw so many bees in my life. We ran to the pond, broke off short sections of cattail reeds and swam
underwater across that pond breathing through the reeds. Wouldn't be alive to tell the story if we hadn't; and remarkably, didn't get a single sting.

[Vaughn]

There is a Forest Service story about the timber marker who took a piss over a log and got himself stung several times on the offending (from the yellow jackets' perspective) member. The secretary had a hard time (laughing too hard) writing up the accident report -- especially when it came to the part about the swelling...

[John Kasaian]

Wasps seem to love hair.
We went hiking with another family whose daughter has thick lack hair and came across a nest of wasps.
It's one of the few times that it's good to be a baldy (not so good to have a beard though!)
That poor girl was really getting the business!

[Keith Fleming]

I have a niece who had the same experience crossing a log on the banks of the Rappahannock River in Virginia. Her mom and dad had to comb yellow jackets out of her hair.

A somewhat more crazy thing happened when I was a platoon commander in an infantry company at Camp Lejeune, NC in the early 1960's. We were out in the field, and two of the Marines heard a rattlesnake as they were about to cross a log. Taking the rattling as a challenge, they stunned the snake by firing blanks from their rifles, then beat it to death with the butts of the weapons. The two skinned the snake with their combat knives, and, using a canteen cup, brought the skin and some of the meat back to where the rest of the company was set in for the night. They cooked the meat over a fire that night, and reported it tasted a bit like chicken. I saw the skin in the canteen cup afterward, but didn't ask to try the meat. A safety lecture just didn't seem appropriate--I decided it was one of those times I should shut up and just go back to my own area and allow the two to bask in the admiration of their fellow Marines.

Keith

[bobwysiwyg]

I 'ge noticed a number of the listed incidents involved stepping over logs. As a Boy Scout w-a-y long ago, never step over logs without checking out the other side first.

[Drew Wiley]

Rattlers for dinner?? Just a long chicken neck with little meat on it at all. Needs a lot of breading. My
brother and I killed a huge rattler one morning - maybe 7 ft long - then deep fried it, and as a prank
took it to one of those Grange type potlucks, coiled of course, on a bed of rice in a lovely old antique
cassarole pot with a lid atop. The old ladies would lift that lid, go pale, put the lid back on, and walk
away without any food at all. We had a good chuckle, and more slices of pie for us anyway.

[Leszek Vogt]

I've been away for quite a while....foraging for some good Kona beans on the island...well, somebody had to do it....and this thread is still percolating. All I know is that "fear" is not part of griz's DNA make up. Spray makes sense...

Les

[E. von Hoegh]

Bear spray can also be used to make the ultimate hot wings. :)

[E. von Hoegh]

From bear spray to bigfoot and huckleberry milkshakes in 18 pages. And, far as can I remember, not a single reference to LF photography. This is exactly what I've come to expect from LFPF. Hitler would not have approved of this thread. Nor would MLK. ;)

Actually, I think Goebbels would be the one who had problems with the thread.

[Drew Wiley]

Yes indeed. There are lots of goebblers in the woods too.

[E. von Hoegh]

Yes indeed. There are lots of goebblers in the woods too.

Hot goebbler wings?

[John Kasaian]

Bear spray can also be used to make the ultimate hot wings. :)The most useful bit of info this thread has to offer!

[Scott Davis]

Just hold your breath while eating them... or even just while in reasonable proximity :)

[Drew Wiley]

After eating Mexican food my breath will ordinarily kill anything within a twenty foot radius. No need
for bear spray. And the back end can be even more lethal.

[bobwysiwyg]

After eating Mexican food my breath will ordinarily kill anything within a twenty foot radius. No need
for bear spray. And the back end can be even more lethal.

No need to be concerned about them chasing you either then. :)