nikkor t ed 800 / 1200 mm

[mircea nicolae]

Hi guys,

I've been considering buying the nikkor t ed 600 / 800 / 1200 set.

However, only recently have I understood that you need huge bellows draw for these lenses:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~cbird/nikkor/t.html#T600

for the 600 mm - flange focal distance = 409 mm
for the 800 mm - flange focal distance = 527 mm
for the 755 mm - flange focal distance = 409 mm

After loooking around for a camera that supports these numbers I found the Horseman L camera, which goes as far as 450 mm.

My questions to the people here on the forum who have these lenses and use them are:

1. What cameras do you use for these lenses? (especially for 800 / 1200 mm)
2. How does the setup perform in the stability / micro focus department?
3. Are you using two tripods? (the lenses seem to be heavy)
4. Do you have any idea how far these lenses go, in kilometers or miles? (if someone can indicate a table with ALL nikkor t ed lenses..)


Thanks,

MN

[Ken Lee]

Because they are telephoto designs, they require less bellows draw than their effective focal length: so they are a "bargain" in that department.

If you're accustomed to 4x5 field cameras whose bellows draw is limited to ~300mm, then these figures probably sound dramatic, but even among field cameras, there are several models which allow the use of 450mm non-telephoto lenses like the the Fujinon C or Nikkor M. Many monorail designs of modular design can be extended ad infinitum by simply attaching additional rails and bellows.

5x7 and 8x10 cameras routinely provide more bellows draw, like 600mm or more. Wind and shutter speed influence sharpness.

You might find this article interesting: 610mm APO Nikkor Gallery (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/aponikkor610/index.php). It shows a 610mm lens (non-telephoto) in use on a 4x5 Sinar, with only 1 tripod (and not a particularly fancy one for that matter). The resolution test (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/aponikkor610/Nikkor610Test.php) (1/60 second) might also be interesting.

[John O'Connell]

I had the 600/800T for a few years. I used it solely on a 8x10 Gowland Pocket View with 32" of bellows. Focusing the lens is no big deal, even at the low speed of the longer lengths. You still use a loupe, but I found the 600/800 lengths to be contrasty enough that the single rough focus knob on my camera was sufficient.

My experience was that the 600 was usable without extra support, but the 800 was marginal on a single tripod. It is an extremely large and heavy lens, and seriously alters the balance of the camera (not as much of a problem on a monorail).

Contrary to your thinking, however, the 600T is an incredibly convenient lens for its focal length--I could still reach the controls on the lens from behind the camera. And ~400mm of bellows is wonderful on a 600mm lens. The 800 is less convenient, and the 1200 was never even considered by me (see numerous threads on issues with the 1200T; I didn't want to have to get a new camera).

The easiest way to get enough bellows for these monsters on 4x5 is to cobble together Sinar parts.

[brianjnelson]

I have the 600T that I use with a Linhof 5x7 Technika V. I use one tripod with a Bogen Magic Arm attached to the front (fold down part of camera) and clamp to a tripod leg for added stability. The 5x7 linhof has enough bellows for the 600.

BTW- I used to have a 610 APO Nikkor that I used on a Sinar with multiple rail clamps and a couple magic arms front and back on the rail. Both on 4x5 and 8x10. The 600T is a much easier to work with.

[John Schneider]

Look at post #9 in this thread, which shows Reinhart Wolf using a long process lens (non-telephoto) on a Sinar. It's about 1m of bellows: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?48108-Extremely-Long-Apo-Ronars&highlight=castles+spain

Or this image of the equipment he used for his Castles of Spain book; this lens looks even longer. Notice the compendium and several intermediate standards: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dearchitect.nl/binaries/content/gallery/architect/blogs/11/17/Architectuurfotografie%2Bover%2Brozen/image020.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dearchitect.nl/blogs/2009/11/17/Architectuurfotografie%2Bover%2Brozen.html&h=391&w=610&sz=52&tbnid=f0tFPXQjGQJWVM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=140&zoom=1&usg=__QodC_-iazn_mqozWuoz04gknhqU=&docid=vjajaEKOJzl56M&sa=X&ei=v0_yULLeE8m9iwKJkIGQAQ&ved=0CEkQ9QEwBQ&dur=6950

[mircea nicolae]

This is really useful. Thanks a lot to you all.

[Drewskers]

I have a Nikkor T ED 600/800. I originally used it in the late 80's on a Horseman LX 45 camera, which I don't have any longer. That camera had a telescoping rail that enabled me to focus the 800T. I used a Bogen 3058 tripod (the old 3058 which dwarfs the current 3058) and a Gitzo 470 Pan-Tilt head that had a long bed with two mounting screws. Horseman had an adapter at that time that was ribbed 1/4" steel about 1/ 1/2" wide and 12" long. It had 2 mounting blocks for the camera rail at either end. I would attach this adapter directly to the Gitzo head using both mounting screws. That camera/head/tripod were so rigid it was like they were machined out of a single block of steel. It never needed any additional support. And I could also balance the camera nicely despite the weight of the 800T.

Unfortunately, I injured my back using that rig. Go figure, lol. I sold the Horseman and bought a Linhoff Technikarden. This camera only has enough bellows draw for the 600T. I put it on a Gitzo 4-series tripod that weighs about a third of the Bogen. (The Bogen is still holding down the floor in my basement. It's that heavy.) The Gitzo pan tilt head was replaced with a Foba BALLA Super Ball with QR. I got a custom 8" long mounting plate from Kirk with two mounting holes lined up with the two mounting holes in the main rail section of the Linhoff. This adds some rigidity and allows for some balance adjustment as well (by sliding the plate in the QR mount). This setup, and the Technikarden, is not as rigid as the Horseman, but good enough. I have used a second small tripod a few times when it is windy. I don't attach it but just snick it up against the far end of the telescoped rail.

[Drewskers]

A correction to my post, and some additional information, as I found my Horseman catalog from way back when.

The Horseman camera I had was the L45EX. Collapsed, the rail was 460mm long, and it extended to 700mm. I always needed some extension to focus the 800T.

The mounting plate I mentioned was actually called the "Support Plate" and the part number was 27562.

That Horseman was a beautiful camera. Wish I had kept it!

[Dean Wilmot]

Hi all, re the nikkor t ed 360/500/720 and 600/800/1200 sets of lenses, firstly can someone please advise exactly what number of front and rear elements should come for each set of focal lengths in each set of lenses? Also can the 600/800/1200 set of lenses be used on the same setup as the 360/500/720 ie using the same copal setup?? Thanks in advance

[chassis]

Hi Dean,

The questions are answered precisely in the Nikkor large format lens catalogs. Google finds them quickly and easily. Here is some feedback:

Shutters are different, therefore the two lens sets are not interchangeable with one shutter, because of different lens to shutter thread sizes. Copal 1 and Copal 3 thread sizes are easily found using Google.

Nikkor-T ED 360/500/720
- Copal 1 shutter
- 4 items, excluding shutter, are needed for the set:
-- ED 360mm f/8 front lens component, includes 3 elements in 2 groups
-- ED 360mm f/8 rear lens component, includes 2 elements in 2 groups
-- ED 500mm f/11 rear lens component, includes 3 elements in 2 groups
-- ED 720mm f/16 rear lens component, includes 4 elements in 2 groups

Nikkor-T ED 600/800/1200
- Copal 3 shutter
- 4 items, excluding shutter, are needed for the set:
-- ED 600mm f/9 front lens component, includes 4 elements in 3 groups
-- ED 600mm f/9 rear lens component, includes 2 elements in 2 groups
-- ED 800mm f/12 rear lens component, includes 3 elements in 2 groups
-- ED 1200mm f/16 rear lens component, includes 4 elements in 2 groups

[Pere Casals]

3. Are you using two tripods? (the lenses seem to be heavy)

As always, on any doubt you just can place a toy laser pointer in the front standard, and point at some distance, this will tell you how steady is the thing, and also it teaches what effect has wind in a particular setup.

If a tripod is weak for a setup, before using 2 tripods, one may try to attach a monopod in the front, as temporary solution. Usually vibrations in the pitch axis are the more problematic with long bellows...

[Drew Wiley]

Those Nikkor Teles can be unrealistically heavy for some field cameras. The alternatives like Apo Nikkors will be optically superior with far larger image circles, but obviously require more bellows extension, plus in most cases, finding a suitable shutter. I Personally use 450 and 600 Fuji C's (Compact); but these are now fetching rather high prices. What works way better than the two-tripod method is two rail mounts both connected to a single long bar (like Sinar offers, though I make my own out of maple hardwood stock), then mounting this directly atop a flat tripod platform like big Ries tripods have.

[Dean Wilmot]

Thanks Guys. Ive heard today from a bloke that owned one that the 360/500/720 isn't a great lens setup and best to stick with a Fujinon T 8/400mm and other dedicated focal length tele lenses. Any thoughts or maybe he just had a dud???

[Huub]

I have been using a 360 / 500 Nikon T* ED set for about two years now and it is great to work with. I use it mostly in the 360mm configuration, only changing it to the 500 mm when i need the long focal lenght. The example I have is a good lens, contrasty and sharp in both configurations.

Stability is an issue and the lens is on the heavy side for the Shenhao i use, especially when the bellows is fully racked out for the 500mm.

[Pere Casals]

The alternatives like Apo Nikkors There is another difference, T-ED are multicoated, this may be more or less important for a particular photographer...

[Corran]

Thanks Guys. Ive heard today from a bloke that owned one that the 360/500/720 isn't a great lens setup and best to stick with a Fujinon T 8/400mm and other dedicated focal length tele lenses. Any thoughts or maybe he just had a dud???

I have and use the whole set, when I shoot tele. I think they are fine lenses and they deliver excellent results with careful use. They don't need to be stopped down much to reach full potential. The previous owner was a professional photographer who used them extensively and he told me the optimum aperture was two stops down from max at each focal length, and only 1 stop at the 720 length, which has proven to be true from my usage. More likely the "issues" with sharpness on these lenses come first from camera stability.

[John Jarosz]

They are fine lenses. However, they are not for use with rickety cameras, dinky little tripods or windy days.

Two tripods help - a lot. If it takes you less than a half hour to setup the equipment, well, then the setup is suspect.

[drew.saunders]

Hi all, re the nikkor t ed 360/500/720 and 600/800/1200 sets of lenses, firstly can someone please advise exactly what number of front and rear elements should come for each set of focal lengths in each set of lenses? Also can the 600/800/1200 set of lenses be used on the same setup as the 360/500/720 ie using the same copal setup?? Thanks in advance

The 2007 B&H Professional Photo Sourcebook is available online, and has a lot of really good useful LF information (all sourcebooks can be found here: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/FreeCatalog.jsp). If you go to the LF lens section: https://static.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/Product_Resources/SourceBookProPhoto/Section04LgFormatLenses.pdf and scroll down a bit (page 234 in the original catalog) you'll see a whole page on the Nikon T lenses, including a chart of what goes with what, and a photo of the 800mm lens to give you an idea of how huge they are. You can also see 2007 prices!

[Corran]

Two tripods help - a lot.

That reminds me of a little trick I've used with the 720mm element. I have an extended focus rack for my Chamonix. I drilled a hole in the front and put a threaded insert into it for a 1/4" tripod mount. I used a monopod there to support the front of the camera/lens, with the camera itself of course on my normal tripod. Works great.

With regard to setup time - 30 minutes is an eternity. Get used to your equipment and know it well and you should be able to setup much quicker. Setting up my 8x20 takes less time than that...and it's a POS that takes a lot of time. I can setup and shoot my Chamonix in 3-4 minutes...maybe an extra 5-6 to setup the extension rack and 720 if I'm doing that.

[Pfsor]

I've been using the 800 mm Nikkor for ages (more that 10 years). I have constructed my own camera around this lens, for 6x12 and 6x9 film format. I always use 2 tripods with the camera, it doesn't move even in strong winds. I use 2 tripods even for my Fuji 600C lens in the same conditions.
Can't imagine how a monopod can stabilize the lens when it itself is not stabilized. Must be a miracle of physics. Winds come from all directions, so do vibrations caused by handling. If you want to avoid movement of the lens stabilize it with what is stable in the first place. Just common sense.
(If you want to see what stabilize this lens correctly try to stabilize 16x binoculars between your face and a monopod - you will see the result for yourself. Then go and put the binocs on a tripod and compare the visual vibrations).

[Corran]

Tripod AND a monopod. Read more carefully.

[Pfsor]

Tripod AND a monopod. Read more carefully.

I read it so. Hence - a stable support and the one that is not stable. Read more carefully.

[Corran]

Works fine for me.

[Pfsor]

Works fine for me.

And what stabilizes your monopod in its horizontal movements? Just curious.

[Corran]

In windy conditions I can see the front of the camera moving. With the monopod it stops. That's all there is to it.

Here's a photo I shot w/ the 720, in the middle of an athletic field and with some wind, since it is wide open:

http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/ung-5209ss.jpg

Here's a roughly 30x crop of the weather vane where I discovered later was a hawk sitting:

http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/ung-5209c.jpg

I don't see any stability issues.

[Pfsor]

The question remains - what does stop the monopod in its horizontal movements when the lens itself is moved by the wind?
Of course, if you use the lens wide open and against illuminated sky then the short exposure time can fix some movement in some conditions. Not always and not in all conditions. The monopod is not stable in itself, the lens either. If you want to play the Russian roulette with your film the monopod is the right means for it.

[Corran]

Try it for yourself, you might be surprised. You can draw force diagrams if you want.

[Pfsor]

Try to understand that a heavy lens in horizontal vibrations cannot be successfully stabilized by a light monopod itself not stable in its horizontal plane. You might be surprised to see that physics can explain things you don't need to try first to see they cannot work.

[Corran]

Whatever you say boss. You seem to be discounting the force from planting the monopod solidly to the ground. To move horizontally it would have to describe a circle, but it can't if the monopod is extended solidly. I didn't invent this technique - others have done it as well. If you want to use two tripods, go for it.

[Pfsor]

The boss is not me, but the physical realities. If you want to use a monopod to stabilize a front standard using an 800 mm lens, go for it. You will be surprised to see how many times it doesn't work. Not only for me, the matter has been discussed on this forum before.

[Pfsor]

But because you seem to be so bent on actual experiences try this one. Put an 800mm lens on your camera front standard supported at this end by a monopod and with your hand try to wiggle the monopod horizontally. You will be surprised to see how easily and effortlessly the picture on your gg starts to dance. No planting of the monopod can be enough to impede it. If the monopod moves because of your hand or the wind that moves it or the shutter vibration that moves it the result on the gg is still the same.
I know, because I too tried it before I decided for the 2 tripods solution. And that solution is rock steady even in winds that move my head while looking at the gg with a loupe.

[Drew Wiley]

I can stabilize with a single large tripod way way faster, and probably do it better, by the way I already described. First buy or alter a solid tripod for a stable platform top. Second, leave your tripod head at home. Connect the long bar directly to the tripod platform with the 3/8-16 turnbolt below. I routinely do this for both very long extensions with view cameras and long heavy MF telephotos. It works. But what it can't cure is a flimsy front standard or sudden gust of wind. And since big bellows function like kites, on very windy days I tend to resort to MF.

[Bernice Loui]

More than 4x normal focal length with a view camera is fraught with problems. Larger the film format size, longer the focal length lens the BIGGER the problems. This is what Sinar suggest for camera support with long focal length lenses.
183809

Having been and done the Tele Nikkor 600-800-1200mm set on 5x7 & 8x10, would never own that lens set again. It is BIG, heavy, expen$ive, not that great a performer. If camera movements are applied, projected image can get whacky in wacky ways. IMO, once you're at those view camera focal lengths, Do the fixed focal length lens (good process lens is superior to the Tele Nikkor for tele view camera) or the last version of Schneider APO tele Xenar, $$$$$ but GOOD!

Smaller formats DO work better, far better for tele. Power pole transformer image with a Canon FD 500mm f4.5 L, 2x converter on Canon mirrorless digital.
183810

Cropped from that same image showing the over temperature sticker on the power pole transformer.
183811

How would a simple lens test image like this be accomplished using a view camera? Choosing the proper implement for a given image need can and does make a difference.


Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

Cropped image (30x) using a film scanner?

Look very carefully at the edges and contrast transition of film grains. There is digital dithering added to the scan to result in what appears to be a contrast enhanced defined edge.

Make the same image using a very high quality optical microscope and camera system. The resulting image could be different.


Bernice



In windy conditions I can see the front of the camera moving. With the monopod it stops. That's all there is to it.

Here's a roughly 30x crop of the weather vane where I discovered later was a hawk sitting:

http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/ung-5209c.jpg

I don't see any stability issues.

[Pere Casals]

Cropped image (30x) using a film scanner?

Look very carefully at the edges and contrast transition of film grains. There is digital dithering added to the scan to result in what appears to be a contrast enhanced defined edge.

Make the same image using a very high quality optical microscope and camera system. The resulting image could be different.

Bernice


Anyway that crop clearly shows that no pictorial benefit would be obtained with a better tripod, in that situation.

I had similar results with a SC 8x10 sailing in a moderate wind, the particular tripod/head was good enough.

Let me reiterate that if one has a doubt he may use a $5 toy laser pointer DIY attached to the front standard, the vibration of the spot on the subject tells what will be blurred in a long exposure, a short exposure may have less blur.

Even we can easily pseudo-calculate the blur in lp/mm, operating with magnification and vibration of the spot.

Gentlemen, a toy laser is a must have... I one owns it then he knows what tripod does without wasting sheets.

[AA+]

I have the complete set of the 600mm 800mm 1200mm for my 5x7 wood Canham view camera. The 600mm and 800mm work fine for bellows extension, but the 1200mm is too long. I made a cumbersome top hat extender for the 1200mm and took one picture with it. I have toyed with making a more permanent and useful extender, but have procrastinated on it for years.

Best wishes --- Allen

[Drew Wiley]

Apo Nikkors are far more precise than Tele-Nikkors, even at infinity. But this entire subject if fraught with a default, and that is, the atmosphere itself degrades scenes in most distant situations far more than nitpicky differences between lenses or even formats. Haze, pollen, smog, heat waves. Skilled distance photographers study the time of day and time of year for suitable conditions. Then there are people like me who prize the manner in which haze can be controlled through filtration to selectively introduce a sense of distance in the scene. I might carry anything from a deep red, near-infrared 29+ filter
to dramatically cut through haze, right to the opposite extreme of a 47 blue to dramatically accentuate haze just like olden blue-sensitive plates. Usually I select something in between. But when I'm contemplating long distance work, I'm more likely to carry a Norma 4x5 with its sectional rails than my 8x10 folder. Or if tilt isn't needed for sake of foreground focus, my 300 EDIF Pentax 67 lens is a joy to work with; but even it has a double attachment to a precisely fitted bar or maple hardwood, which is then in turn bolted to the platform of my big Ries tripod, just like a view camera. I even faux-finished the maple block to match the weathered look of the maple tripod itself, by tinting the penetrating epoxy with rust. The maple block is laminated to machined phenolic for a precise fit, much like wooden rifle stocks get precisely bedded with fiberglass. I'll admit the whole idea was conceived as a fun rainy day shop project; but it works superbly.