New 8x10 camera build

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I have a question for all of the DYI photographers out there. Some of you know that I have built three ULF cameras. I've decided to build a fourth. My workhorse 8x10 Seneca Improved is getting tired so I decided that it is time to build a repalacement. I'm designing it around the Chamonix as I like the design and every camera I have built has been a different design. Well I guess I should get to the point...... Can someone who has an 8x10 Chamonix measure the height of the front standard for me? That is it for now. Maybe more questions as they come up and I'll post some pictures of the build as I go. Thanks.

[Peter De Smidt]

Sorry, I don't have a Chamonix. Nonetheless, I'm going to be following your progress with great interest! May it go smoothly!

[Vaughn]

I thought you had a girlfriend to keep you busy...;)

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I do, but she is in Timor Leste teaching English at the University and she is gone for 10 MONTHS!!! I have to do something to keep myself busy!!

[Kuzano]

Don't know if this will help, but you can get some sense of scale in this Youtube Video... six minutes of setup and takedown for the Chamonix 8X10....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOjJTnuZUdY

[Sal Santamaura]

These images


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/cameras/phillips/

show the Phillips Compact II upon which Chamonix based its 8x10. I strongly suggest that, unlike Chamonix, you copy the handle too. :) Also, my recommendation is to source bellows from these folks:


http://www.custombellows.co.uk/

Adhesive or some other component used in the Chamonix bellows exudes a strong odor which, even after airing for many months, failed to dissipate. I reluctantly returned my Chamonix wholeplate camera to Hugo when unable to stand the smell. Lack of a handle is something I would have lived with, although not happy about it.

[thomasfallon]

Don't know if this will help, but you can get some sense of scale in this Youtube Video... six minutes of setup and takedown for the Chamonix 8X10....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOjJTnuZUdY

Just be sure to mute the "musical" track that accompanies this. I could make a better musical track with fart noises.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Thanks, for the info everyone. I ordered my bellows from Custom Bellows for my 14x17 so I am familiar with their outstanding quality. I've looked at the 8x10 on the Chamonix site as well as the Phillips. I have plenty of experience building cameras and as alway appreciate any help or advice. I hope someone comes through with the measurement. Just want to confirm what I think to be right. Thanks.

[Sal Santamaura]

The aluminum front standard "U" on my Compact II (s/n 344 from about 1998) is made from three pieces, just like the one in images on this site I linked to above. The only differences I can see are that, on mine, the uprights taper very slightly at their top inch, whereas those pictured are rectangular, and the bottom horizontal piece on mine has top "chamfers" in front of and behind the slot, while the one pictured is fully rectangular. Dick made running changes over the years, but I think these basic dimensions are the same. In this case, I suspect he beefed up the front slightly to accommodate larger/heavier lenses. That probably also contributed to the Compact II's weight gain in later production. I've occasionally used lenses heavier than 2 pounds with no issues and am glad to have an earlier, lighter camera version.

Front-back depth of all three aluminum pieces is 1-1/4 inches. Height of the upright pieces is 9-3/4 inches; they're 1/8 inch thick. Width of the bottom, horizontal piece into which the upright pieces are screwed is exactly 7 inches. It's 1/2 inch thick. The slot cut in it is 5-1/2 inches long. All these measurements were made with a steel rule and should be very accurate.

Hope this helps!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

The aluminum front standard "U" on my Compact II (s/n 344 from about 1998) is made from three pieces, just like the one in images on this site I linked to above. The only differences I can see are that, on mine, the uprights taper very slightly at their top inch, whereas those pictured are rectangular, and the bottom horizontal piece on mine has top "chamfers" in front of and behind the slot, while the one pictured is fully rectangular. Dick made running changes over the years, but I think these basic dimensions are the same. In this case, I suspect he beefed up the front slightly to accommodate larger/heavier lenses. That probably also contributed to the Compact II's weight gain in later production. I've occasionally used lenses heavier than 2 pounds with no issues and am glad to have an earlier, lighter camera version.

Front-back depth of all three aluminum pieces is 1-1/4 inches. Height of the upright pieces is 9-3/4 inches. Width of the bottom, horizontal piece into which the upright pieces are screwed is exactly 7 inches. The slot cut in it is 5-1/2 inches long.

Hope this helps!

Sal, thank you so very much for the exact information I need. I really appreciate it. Dick made amazing cameras and this is why I want to build my own version. Not anywhere as good but it will be functional none the less. Again, thanks.

[Sal Santamaura]

Sal, thank you so very much for the exact information I need. I really appreciate it. Dick made amazing cameras and this is why I want to build my own version. Not anywhere as good but it will be functional none the less. Again, thanks.You're very welcome Jim. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Note that I just edited my previous post to include thicknesses of the stock Dick used.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Sal, again, thanks. This is very helpful and I'll be sure to update this post with images as the project comes together.

[sanking]

Sal, thank you so very much for the exact information I need. I really appreciate it. Dick made amazing cameras and this is why I want to build my own version. Not anywhere as good but it will be functional none the less. Again, thanks.


This is just my opinion so don't bit my head off if you don't agree.

OK, I have owned and used a bunch of ULF cameras, including a couple with the Phillips type back as adapted by Shen-Hao and Chamonix, and others with a more traditional back. I really prefer the more traditional back because for the most part this design allows me to more quickly zero out all of the tilts and shifts. Give me the choice of a Deardorff/Gandolfi/Lotus design with a traditional back, or Chamonix design with the Phillips type back, and I will take the former every day.

Jim, I know that this is not what you asked about, but since your other ULF cameras have a traditional type back you might find think about this issue before spending a lot of time making a camera you might not like working with.

Sandy

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Sandy, thanks. I never bite anyone's head off.... at least not yet:). My cameras have all been Hybrids of sorts. I find a design and some images or in the case of my 11x14 I used my Zone VI 4x5 and copied it. I am by no means at the level of Richard Ritter, Dick Phillips and the like. The 8x10 will be a combination of the different designs. I have always built my backs around traditional designs. I'm looking at Phillips, Chamonix and Deardorff for my inspiration and I hope I get the best of all of them. This one is Walnut and Rosewood. I've got the metal Deardorff parts that I need and the rest I will fabricate on my own. No time frame to finish but I'll post some images along the way.

[Sal Santamaura]

This is just my opinion so don't bit my head off if you don't agree...Sandy, don't worry about head biting. :) The sheriffs here are in rapid reaction mode when rules violations like lack of civility occur. :D


...I have owned and used a bunch of ULF cameras, including a couple with the Phillips type back as adapted by Shen-Hao and Chamonix, and others with a more traditional back. I really prefer the more traditional back because for the most part this design allows me to more quickly zero out all of the tilts and shifts. Give me the choice of a Deardorff/Gandolfi/Lotus design with a traditional back, or Chamonix design with the Phillips type back, and I will take the former every day...I have Phillips 4x5, 8x10 and 11x14 cameras as well as Ebony 5x7 and wholeplate


http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2007/04/more-about-ebony-sv-wholeplate_09.html

cameras. There is no question that you're correct about speed of use. However, it's a tradeoff. One gives up a little time to save weight. My SV Wholeplate weighs around 9 pounds. My Compact II weighs 7.8 pounds. I'd love to have a wholeplate version of the Compact II that comes in at around 6 pounds. It would make carrying such an outfit long distances in a backpack practical for this "98 pound weakling," whereas with the Ebony I'm now limited to rather short distances from the car.


...Jim, I know that this is not what you asked about, but since your other ULF cameras have a traditional type back you might find think about this issue before spending a lot of time making a camera you might not like working with...With ULF, for me at least, there's no question that working from the car is a necessity. In that case, I can accept a bit more weight for speed of setup. However, 8x10 and smaller formats want to be carried on one's back, making lightness an overriding virtue to me.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I'm not a big guy either. At 5'6" and shrinking and 145lbs. my 14x17 is in a backpack.... yes I carry it on my back! Well I never said I was that bright now did I! If I keep the 8x10 around 9-10 lbs. I'll be fine. My Seneca Improved is about 9. Trouble is at least for me is that I carry more crap with a lighter camera! way to many lens choices!

I don't go very far with the ULF's but I have packs for all of them and have gone a couple of miles or so. Every year I stay closer and closer to the truck.

[sanking]

I don't go very far with the ULF's but I have packs for all of them and have gone a couple of miles or so. Every year I stay closer and closer to the truck.\

The more you work with ULF the smarter you become. Eventually you will realize that all of the great images can be made within twenty to forty feet of your vehicle. Once you get away from the vehicle and start on the trails you will always find something obstructing your vision, like rocks/boulders, trees or running water. This can be really irritating when you really want to focus on a "clean" composition.

In short, I highly recommend ULF for older photographers who need to work on being more selective in their image capture.

Sandy

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Sandy, I love to find images close to my truck and explore. I find that with ULF I may scout out things a bit more. Still if it is close all the better.

Here are some images of my progress on the 8x10 build.

[Malcolm E. Sharp]

Will be keeping a keen eye on this build as I am thinking of building a few cameras for myself. Good luck Jim.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Malcolm, the funny thing is that even though this is my 4th camera build I'm always learning something. Each camera was a different design and I'd like to hope they are getting better. Work from the inside out. I mean backwards. It all has to work as a system.... interconnected so take your time. I've been and will continue to practice my joinery technique. Hand cut dovetails on this one. I need a lot of practice as it has been a long time since I've cut dovetails.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Even though I have not completed anything I have often looked at Mr. Harlin's photos and his success in building a camera. I am sure you have seen these, but perhaps others have not.

http://jbhphoto.com/vcam/vcams10.htm

[Jim Fitzgerald]

J. B. Harlin is a friend and wonderful craftsman. The info fromhs site is very helpful as he show a step by step with great images. I wish I had a shop to do my work. I built my 11x14 using my Zone VI and JB's images as my guide. Great resourse.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

By the way, having visited Ventura on many occasions I am jealous of your location. When you aren't building cameras you have that beautiful Pacific to look at, and a very eclectic downtown to walk around. A great little city!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Kevin, you are right. Living at the beach is a wonderful thing. A lot to do in town and close by.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

A little bit of work tonight. I set up my pieces for the front standard frame and routed the distances that I needed for the lens board. Need to cut the joints and cut to size. Waiting on my new dovetail saw so I can work on finishing the back box. Front standard is designed and I need to joint it. Coming along. Nothing like firing up my router in the hallway of my apartment! I am crazy don't you know! Quick bursts and the neighbors don't know what hit them. I run my shop vac at the same time. So far so good.

[Tri Tran]

Jim, I think these are way under cut. It would be twice at least twice of that size. I heard 16x20 format is calling...

[Roger Thoms]

Jim, hear you on the apartment/power tool situation, made me smile. I'm sure your the least of your neighbors worries. Yeah nothing like a ShopVac for a little white noise.

Roger

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Today, I managed to meet a friend of Forrest Atkins who happened to have a Leigh Dovetail jig that could be used to build the back box and my front standard. I just wanted to do dove's because they look nice and are a great joint. Some will say that it is a mistake building a front standard out of wood. Well i did it with the 14x17, 8x20 and the 11x14 and it works just fine. The front uprights are Rosewood and Walnut. Hard to see from the photographs. On to routing the slots for rise and fall and front shift and swing on the base . Need to tighten up fit and glue the front standard after I rout the slots and I'm going to glue the back tonight.

[C. D. Keth]

That's going to be a handsome camera, Jim. Careful or it might be too pretty to take out.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Never to pretty to take out.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Time for a little update. I've been picking away at the camera. Here are some images. I've kind of put things together but still have a long way to go. A couple of the knobs are just lying on the camera and are not in position yet.

[Malcolm E. Sharp]

It's certainly looking like a camera now, Jim. I like the wooden knobs, although might they be difficult to operate in unfavourable conditions i.e. rain and snow?

Thanks for keeping us updated on your progress with this wonderful camera.

Malcolm.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

The Rosewood knobs will not be a problem in those conditions. My 11x14 has Walnut knobs and I have never had any problemsthus far. More work ahead. Need to start thinking about the back.... I do have some ideas.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Got to the hard part...... well not really. I have my Seneca Improved 8x10 to use as my guide for the T depth for the ground glass frame. Got Clamps!!!!

Made sure everything was flat and square! I may even have a spare GG.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

So here is another update. I took a couple of days to carefully put together the back frame and ground glass frame. The holder slides in perfectly and the T depth is right on the money. I have the glass but I need to make the clips. I have the stainless steel to fabricate them from so let's get busy Mr. Dremel!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

So here is a rough picture and update. Erik Larsen was kind enough to send me a bellows he had made at Western Bellows that he is not going to use. Looks like it will work. I'll know for sure in the morning but it looks real good. Now I need to step it up! Just need to fabricate some more stainless and drill a bunch of holes and get ready for a dry assembly real soon. So I just need to find a name for it. The Fitzinator? Fitzphil? Chamofitz? Fitzonet?

[Vaughn]

Looking great, Jim!

The Fitzerator! Generating 10,000 watts of pure light-powered imagery!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Looking great, Jim!

The Fitzerator! Generating 10,000 watts of pure light-powered imagery!

Vaughn, I like it! Should I start a poll?

[Erik Larsen]

The Fitzdorf:)

[Jim Fitzgerald]

The Fitzdorf:)

Erik, thanks for your vote. I based the design around the Phillips/Chamonix design. Hence the references.

[Erik Larsen]

Erik, thanks for your vote. I based the design around the Phillips/Chamonix design. Hence the references.

In that case it should be the jimonix:)

[Jim Fitzgerald]

In that case it should be the jimonix:)

Say Erik, I like that!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I did some pre-finish assembly today. I wanted to see how much extension I could get and it looks to be max at 26-28 inches. I'm thinking it may be closer to 26. That is fine by me.... do I have a choice at this point!. The movements are nice and smooth.

[vinny]

Nice Jim.
Can you show detail of the gearing system?
how does the rear standard lock/tilt, I don't see a knob there?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Vinny, I have not gotten to that part yet. I bought Deardorff rear standard arms. They will attach to the rear slides and I have fabricated a stainless steel piece the the arm will attach to via the knob. Hard to explain but take a look at the way the Phillips works and you will see.

[andreios]

jim, this one looks excellent! I wish I had your skills...

[photoevangelist]

I want one ...... in every format!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I like the way the camera works so far. I still have to mount the back and make sure all of the back functions work. The back will only have tilt and swing. More than enough. My bellows is 32" I believe so if I make the rear extension arms longer by two inches I could get to maybe 30" of extension but at this point why? I can't wait to test mount the back and get this finished.

[Erik Larsen]

Jim, better measure your arms first before you extend the back. You're gonna need ape arms to focus or your face will be plastered on the ground glass:)

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I know, Erik. I'd use this much exyension in the studio but not to often in the field. If I have to reach and then go back and check the GG no big deal. One has to mke compromises some time.

[Erik Larsen]

Hi Jim, I just mentioned it in case it wasn't apparent. You could make a front standard extender like chamonix does if you ever need the extra extension and leave it off when you don't. Now, get back to sanding!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Ah yes! Thanks. Break from sanding. Dry first and I'll switch to wet later.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Time to do a little finishing. This is just the start of the process. I hand sand everything wet to 1,000 grit with oil. It seals everything and polishes the wood at the same time. A couple of coats of paste wax and we are good to go. Takes a long time to finish but it is well worth the effort.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Ah, nothing like polishing wood. I had to get a look at the bed of the camera so I finish polished it this morning. One coat of paste wax so far. I should be able to finish polishing the balance of the parts soon.

[Jim Graves]

Oh, that's gonna be pretty!

[Vaughn]

What a bloody waste of time! With a 3D printer and the right kind of plastic, he could have made ten of them by now...;)

[tiggert]

What a bloody waste of time! With a 3D printer and the right kind of plastic, he could have made ten of them by now...;)

Bwhahahahahahha...lmao

Oh wait......that is actually a good idea. Put that CAD training work paid for to use doing something i like!!! Hmmmm...

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I've been doing some polishing and finishing and some minor assembly. taking my time to do it right. No stinking machines for me! :D

[Roger Thoms]

I've been doing some polishing and finishing and some minor assembly. taking my time to do it right. No stinking machines for me! :D

Yeah, except the fact you're a camera building machine. Go ahead and kid yourself but we all know it's true. :D

Looks great btw.

Roger

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Roger, yes it is true. This 8x10 is coming along very nicely and quite quickly. Not bad for doing it in my hallway of my apartment!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Here is another update. I laid out many of the pieces for the final assembly. Polishing is done and assembly is next. It is starting to take shape and this image show many of the stainless steel pieces. The GG is not on and neither is the bellows. It does give me an idea of what the finished camera is going to look like. I must say I like what I see.

[Erik Larsen]

It looks pretty Jim! I can't wait to see the 5x7 or 10x12 you build next:)

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Erik, I've got a 5x7 B&J. So 10x12 so I can shoot x-ray film..... Hmmmmmm.

[Erik Larsen]

Erik, I've got a 5x7 B&J. So 10x12 so I can shoot x-ray film..... Hmmmmmm.

You know you're gonna do it!

[C. D. Keth]

If you're thinking x-ray film you might as well just jump to 14x17.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Chris, you mean like this one I built! I built it because i could get 14x17 x-ray film. So I guess I should do a 14x36!!!!!

[C. D. Keth]

Chris, you mean like this one I built! I built it because i could get 14x17 x-ray film. So I guess I should do a 14x36!!!!!

I mean precisely like that! :D

14x36 could be really nice. It's just a little bit longer rectangle than an anamorphic widescreen movie.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

You guys are killin me!!!

[Curt]

Chris, you mean like this one I built! I built it because i could get 14x17 x-ray film. So I guess I should do a 14x36!!!!!

Go for it Jim! Bigger is better!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I did manage to score a free 16x20 bellows last night! Soooooooooooo??????

[photoevangelist]

Chris, you mean like this one I built! I built it because i could get 14x17 x-ray film. So I guess I should do a 14x36!!!!!

Jim, this is sweet! I need to figure out how to build cameras. I'd love to have a camera this size!

How much would you say it cost you to put this together?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

the 14x17 was under a thousand USD. The bellows alone was 500 from Custom bellows in England. it was my third camera build and the largest to date.

[Jim Graves]

I did manage to score a free 16x20 bellows last night! Soooooooooooo??????

Well, if you decide not to build a 16x20 you can always use the bellows as a tent when you're out in the field.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Jim, I would more than likely fit inside! I can do that in the 14x17! So I'm thinking that the 16x20 should be no problem.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

So, I'm in the final assembly stage. I had to rebuild a couple of pieces because they were just not right. I hope to have some photo's of the finished camera tomorrow.

[Jerry51]

Hello Jim did you get photos of the wood 8x10? Did you generate any CAD drawings? I am a retired Cabinetmaker/Amature photographer so I have access to a good woodshop.
I'm looking forward to building the 8x10 like yours, which by the way is beautiful!
Thanks,Jerry II

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Jerry the camera is done and I have been using it for a while and I love it. It is my point and shoot! I built its big brother my 14 x 17. I hope these photos help!