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Matt Long
13-Apr-2004, 14:28
Having just returned from a trip with my medium format gear, my experience with the TSA procedures has left me somewhat befuddled. While going through security on flight from Montana to Houston, when I requested a hand check of my 120 roll film (placed in a clear plastic bag), the TSA screener proceeded to remove each roll of film from the factory foil packaging and swab each one. The screener informed me that this action was due to a revised standard operating procedure and recommended that for future travel, I simply remove all rolls of film from their boxes and packaging and place them in a clear plastic bag. On the return flight from Houston, the TSA screener simply examined the bag and took one swipe of the inside with the swab.

I bring up this experience because on a trip to Ireland last spring, the local screeners in Montana had removed the film from the sealed boxes (foil packets were left intact) and the screeners in Boston complained that they now had to swab each roll of film because the factory packaging was opened (by the TSA screeners in Montana). The folks in Boston said that the factory packaging should have been left intact.

If I plan to fly with my large format equipment in the future, it looks as though QuickLoads or Readyloads will be the safest bet regarding inspection procedures. I don't know what they would do with a sealed box of sheet film.

It would be nice to know what the exact prodedure is that the TSA is required to follow when checking film. However, if the policy is enforced inconsistantly, my desire would be irrelevant. Have other forum members had recent experience with inconsistent TSA screening policies in various locations? BTW, the TSA screener also told me not to waste my money on a lead lined film bag -- if they can't see inside the bag when it is scanned, it will be subjected to a hand search anyway.

Any thoughts?

Jorge Gasteazoro
13-Apr-2004, 14:38
I bring up this experience because on a trip to Ireland last spring, the local screeners in Montana had removed the film from the sealed boxes (foil packets were left intact) and the screeners in Boston complained that they now had to swab each roll of film because the factory packaging was opened (by the TSA screeners in Montana). The folks in Boston said that the factory packaging should have been left intact.



LOL.....I dont know what is the answer to your question, but I find this very funny. Don't you feel like you are trapped in an episode of the Twilight zone?

Ellis Vener
13-Apr-2004, 15:28
"I simply remove all rolls of film from their boxes and packaging and place them in a clear plastic bag."

As a professional photographer , this has been my standard OP for me and most of the other pros i know and has been for years.

As for the twilight zone ref, Jorge: this particular series ("The Real World- Twilight Zone" bought for you by Enron) started in Nov. 2000 although others likely think it started in 1968 or maybe 1980 or maybe even in 1992.

fred arnold
13-Apr-2004, 15:47
I went through this last fall. O'Hare just looked at the film, picked a pair of boxes at random, checked those, and let me through. Phoenix took each roll out, swabbed each one, and then (even after I said that it would be ok for them to leave it to me), stared at each foil package to make sure it went back inside the right box. Almost felt sorry for the guy as he tried to make sure the Portra 160 didn't end up in the Delta-400 boxes. I've taken to fed-exing (or leaving caches) large format ahead of time.

Eric Rose
13-Apr-2004, 15:49
What's Enron got to do with the way TSA screeners operate? I travel all over the world with my photo gear and have never had a hassle anywhere but the US. It seems the TSA apes seem to feel they have to exert their authority whenever possible and have little clue as to what the real procedures are. I wish there was a website we could go to so as to download the manual these clowns have to work from. Maybe I should take a pocket full of jelly beans and reward them for each complete sentence they can mumble. But then again one of the bright ones would figure they need to swab each and every jelly bean, just in case.

Whenever possible I try and avoid having to touch down in the US when I'm travelling. The added stress just isn't worth it. Would rather sleep for an extra couple of hours and route elsewhere.

I'm leaving for Costa Rica on Sunday and taking LF gear. Going via Toronto where Air Canada has a direct flight to SJO. If I took Continental I would have to change planes in Houston. No thanks! The trip will be a bit longer, but what the heck the business class seats are comfy and the booze is free.

If I'm travelling into the US for a period of time then it's not so bad. It's the added hassle of trying to make connections that I'm trying to avoid.

Jorge Gasteazoro
13-Apr-2004, 15:56
I've taken to fed-exing (or leaving caches) large format ahead of time.

A word of caution, if you plan to do this when going to another country, customs might open the film boxes to see what is inside, even if you make an 11x14 sign that says "photographic film, please, please do not open or expose to light!!"



My standard procedure now, when I order film from the US is to order two of each, so they can ruin one box and leave one box unopened. So far UPS has had to reinburse me $750 and Fedex $245. And there seems no end to this. So if you are comming to Mexico, bring your film with you...or send two boxes...:-)

Jorge Gasteazoro
13-Apr-2004, 16:05
BTW Ellis, I think "the real world-the twilight zone series" started when they phased in scanners in the supermarket. It amuses me to no end seeing the clerk go, beep, beep, beep, beep, give up, put the product code..NOT the price only to have it happen again with the next item....and this saves times they say....:-). Of course the REAL twilight zone/the real world really hits home when you try and make your own income taxes by reading the instruction booklet.......

Bob Salomon
13-Apr-2004, 16:55
" If I took Continental I would have to change planes in Houston."

Then that would be a connecting flight. Your screening would have been done in Canada. Not in Houston. Unless it was an open jaw trip and you were going to collect your luggage in Houston and then fly to SJO another day you would not experience a screenin in Houston.

Bob Salomon
13-Apr-2004, 16:57
"flight from Montana to Houston,"

Houston is a fairly civilized city. They even have camera stores that stock 120 film of all types. You could have eliminated all the headaches flying down by calling a Houston dealer, ordering whatever film you needed and just pick it up in the store. Or had them UPS it to your hotel marked "Hold for Arrival".

Matt Long
13-Apr-2004, 17:00
"As a professional photographer , this has been my standard OP for me and most of the other pros i know and has been for years. "

Me too, Ellis. This has been my SOP for years as well, but this is the first time that the film has actually been removed from the sealed wrappers. Will the TSA insist on opening up sealed sheet film packets as well?

Shipping the film in advance has always been an option, but what a pain having to load holders on location (assuming that I am not using pre loaded packets). I just wish that there was a procedure that is consistantly enforced so that we, as photographers, could plan and/or adjust our methods accordingly.

ronald lamarsh
13-Apr-2004, 17:36
I'd just let them x-ray it! I've done this many times with B&W film with no problems even on multiple screenings! I can't vouch for color material though. The actual x-ray dose in the carry-on machines is not enough to cause the film to fog unless you plan on rating it at 3200ASA or something. I've stated this elsewhere on this site. You'd have to go through the x-ray machine probably at least 10 times to be able to measure any fog on B&W material up to 400ASA. Remember that film reacts to visible light which is low energy photons of a certain spectrum. X-rays are gamma radiation of a much higher photon energy and it takes a very long exposure to cause film darkening. That is why the mediacl industry went to the use of double emulsion film sandwiched between to radio-flourecent screens: without doing this exposures were on the order of minutes not milliseconds and at much higher energy levels than those achieved by the machines used for carry-on bags. The baggage scanners are a different story they will toast almost anything.

Ellis Vener
13-Apr-2004, 17:52
" I travel all over the world with my photo gear and have never had a hassle anywhere but the US." Then you are a lucky guy! I know dozens of people who have bad stories about airport security in Britain, France and Germany.

Kirk Gittings
13-Apr-2004, 18:08
Since shortly after 9/11 I haven't taken a commercial job I couldn't drive to. It is not just the film problem. It is the strobe and camera cases, which you can no longer lock. They go thru them with little regard for the safety of the equipment and no apologies when something goes wrong. I once watched a guard fumble with my Schneider 47mm XL wrapped in lens wrap and drop it on his foot! His foot saved my lens. Since my commercial work is in 6X9 that lens is crucial. It is a chance I cannot take. I drive. Luckily I have had tons of work within driving distance. Otherwise on my personel assignments, I ship film directly to and from my hotel.

Doremus Scudder
14-Apr-2004, 05:25
I'm with Ron on this one. I have had my 4x5 film (Tri-X, BPF 200, T-Max 100 and 400, HP-5) x-rayed up to five times per trip with no fogging or ill effects of any kind. This on frequent trips back and forth to Europe and in many different airports (Seattle, Heathrow, JFK, Washington D.C., Amsterdam, Vienna, Frankfurt, Paris...)

I carry film in my carry-on bag and run it through the hand-luggage scanners. No hassle, no "hand inspection" (which, BTW, Heathrow will NOT do) and no time lost. My biggest problem is the steel shanks in my travelling shoes that set off the metal detector!

I have also expressed this viewpoint often and asked if anyone out there has an example of ISO 400-speed film or less that has been damaged by an airport hand-luggage scanner. I have yet to see one.

That said, since I have residences in both the US and Europe, I try to buy film locally. Nowadays, I usually fly internationally without film and pick up what I need from my respective refrigerators. However, I have no fears about taking film with me in my carry-on when I fly to a location to shoot.

Regards,

Ed Workman
14-Apr-2004, 09:19
My first flight in 5 years or so was from LAX a month ago, to Asia. I removed all my 120 film from the boxes (the foil wrappers identify the film) and placed them in clear bags..about a gross of rolls. TSA was very friendly about hand inspection and very thorough, including removal of shoes, belt and swabbing inside all the bags: All-in-all a positive experience. I must say however, that the organization of checked bag examination is clunky to a first-timer, and I'm glad I got there early.

Eric Rose
14-Apr-2004, 09:35
Well Bob if you have to change planes your carry on gets re-checked. Period. Your correct if your checked luggage is tagged thru you don't have to have it rescreened unless you are forced to pick it up, like when you are connecting to an international departure. In LAX, IAH and others this is standard operating procedure. Anytime I'm flying to the South Pacific via the US even tho it's an online connection they force me to pick up my luggage and re-check in. What a pain in the ass. An open jaw is when I would fly into Dallas and then fly out of Houston. Naturally I would have to re-check in my luggage on an itinerary like that. My beef is that in many cases when flights are leaving the US they make you re-check your baggage, even tho you have on-line connections.

Bob Salomon
14-Apr-2004, 10:04
"Well Bob if you have to change planes your carry on gets re-checked.:

Where? Not at Newark, Providence, LAX, LAS, SFO, Portland, Reagen, Boston, Houston, Dallas, Orlando, Phoenix, Seattle, Chicago, Cincinnatti, Atlanta, Jacksonville, West Palm Beach, Miami, San Diego, Rochester, Syracuse, Charlotte, Raleigh/Durham, Albuqurque, Honolulu, Maui or any of the other airports in the US that I have flown in or out of last year (gold Elite on Continental, Platinum on Marriott). So I do travel more then the average person.

If you are changing from one gate to another they no longer inspect your carry-on once you have cleared security. By landing at one gate you arrived at a secure area.

If you decide to leave the secure area you will have to clear security again. But not from simply walking from one gate to another at an Airport.

Now if you are in Frankfurt Germany you can have your hand luggage inspected, and you be quizzed several times, just to get to your gate.

Eric Rose
14-Apr-2004, 13:10
Since I have little to no experience with fly puddle jumpers around the US I can't comment on what you are saying but I'm sure you are right. My concern is with flights that are either international inbound or outbound. Where you are mainly transiting thru the US. And now the US customs wants to fingerprint people coming into the States, even transiting. Such BS. I can just imagine the average American's reaction to getting fingerprinted when they enter another country.

Jim Ewins
14-Apr-2004, 22:23
Several weeks ago I went to Vegas from Seattle with 35mm & 4x5 B&W and color. Hand checking was done without much hassel. Vegas was a different matter. They all acted as if I wanted their mother. The supervisor came over and said he couldn't hand check the 4x5 in the boxes. He had to see the film. Obviously I just pushed it all thru. After I asked for his name he demanded my ID and ticket. He made some notes and said he could have checked the 35mm as he could see the film sticking out. So much for uniform treatment. I feel threatened in my own country. Jim

Witold Grabiec
16-Apr-2004, 23:07
I too travel all over the world so I'm going to say this:

1. TSA is another version of EPA (appologies to the offended), way too much power combined with inherent irresponsibility. Nowhere in the world, airport security is as inconsistent as in the US. It's always nice to have a positive experience with TSA (and I admit I had that myself) but in general an idiotic interpretation of rules in place and power given to them should always be expected at any US airport.

2. Every time one has to change terminals at an airport, he must leave a secure area to do so, meaning a re-check is going to happen, this includes US domestic connecting flights.

3. I've had no fogging up to ASA 800(both color and B&W) with the current breed of x-ray machines for hand luggage.

4. Lock it all, so far I'm yet to have TSA "gurus" complain about my luggage being locked. If I have to, I politely associate them with the thieves who handle luggage afterwards and that has so far been a successful approach to leaving my locks in place.

Roger Krueger
30-Apr-2004, 19:40
Even with their limitations, I find the TSA a far cry better than what there was post 9/11, pre-TSA.

I remember one trip in particular where leaving San Diego a hand inspection consisted of "Yup, looks like film. Have a nice trip" The return from Portland involved a security superviser who, when confronted with the law regarding hand inspections, said "I don't care what the law is. That isn't going through MY checkpoint without being X-rayed!"

I find both of these horrifying for rather opposite reasons. Now the TSA offers at least some semblance of training and consistency. I'd be amazed to find either of these offenses happening now.

seawolf66
2-May-2007, 19:19
I will be traveling to montana on 5/18/07 and I plan to mail my film to mayself in montana and mail it back to my self before I leave: I know It could get lost in the mail! well if it does then the Post office will pay me enough for another trip for the insurance cost!::D

roteague
2-May-2007, 22:11
Why do you even waste your time? If are just using low or medium speed film, leave it in the bag and let it go through the machine. You are just causing yourself unnecessary headaches.

Lazybones
3-May-2007, 00:51
I also just put ISO 400 (and slower) color neg film through the carry-on machine. Last trip, the film went through four scans without ill effect. I gave up on (very pleasantly) requesting hand-inspection after the hostility I encountered a few years ago. Better to let them scan the film then end up on some "list". Interestingly, TSA likes to wipe my whole kit bag, not the individual film boxes. They don't seem to understand, it's my pictures that bomb, not the camera...

No?

Duane Polcou
3-May-2007, 01:09
I would intentionally be routed through Houston, with a layover. Go visit a strip club.
It's like "The Stepford Wives" with implants and Stetsons. God, I frigging love America.

Frank Petronio
3-May-2007, 05:50
I just down-sized and down-sized until I can check the grip and personal items, with the fancy CF tripod being the only really nice thing to lose. And I just let the film go through the carry-on security X-ray. They like to look at the view camera sometimes, "WTF is this?", but everything else is easy nowadays.

Except for the checked baggage guys dismantling a light stand and leaving it in pieces inside the bag. Jerks.

You might as well accept the TSA. Our lovely Democrats federalized them so they can't be fired for anything less than mass murder pedophilism with donkeys. Full super benefits forever, it's a primo job.

Louie Powell
3-May-2007, 05:54
My professional career encompassed the entire history of airport inspections - from the very early days when a totally untrained, minimum-wage person would thumb through a note pad, looking between every sheet of paper (with no clue what he was actually looking for) to the present time. And I have to agree that the TSA is like a breath of fresh air. They are professional, they are trained, and they know what it is that they are looking for (and also what not to be concerned about). I don't like the fact that they have to be there, but assuming that inspections are unavoidable, they do a good job.

And as a photographer, I've generally had no problem with TSA inspections. I made the mistake of requesting hand inspection of my film at one point (you get what you ask for) - they were polite but very thorough. Most of the time I just send my stuff through the normal process, and on rare occasions they open a bag or do a wipe test.

I have to say that I had a close call many years ago - a flight that was forced to do an emergency landing, sliding down escape chutes, etc, because of a phoned-in threat. I came away from that experience believing that once was close enough, and thorough security was important.

That said - - -

There are still a few concerns. One is that they whole point of airport inspections seems to be to instill fear just shy of the point where travelers go into panic. This weekend, I was in Chicago where they repeatedly run a PA announcement in an ominous voice talking about raising the threat level, and "by order of the TSA", etc. The only purpose served is to intimidate the public. I don't think that is necessary.

Another issue is that while TSA is professional, it is still populated by people. And unfortunately, when people get tired, they do unthinking things. Its relatively rare, but occasionally you do see a TSA person in a busy, overcrowded airport harassing a traveler., I had an instance a couple of years ago (in Newark) where the TSA person told me that it was not necessary to take off my shoes, and then proceeded to give me the full pat-down process because I had opted to not take off my shoes. He was stressed (and I was exhausted after a 20+hour flight), and we simply had one of those unfortunate interactions that I suspect we both regretted later.

Scott Davis
3-May-2007, 06:23
I just down-sized and down-sized until I can check the grip and personal items, with the fancy CF tripod being the only really nice thing to lose. And I just let the film go through the carry-on security X-ray. They like to look at the view camera sometimes, "WTF is this?", but everything else is easy nowadays.

Except for the checked baggage guys dismantling a light stand and leaving it in pieces inside the bag. Jerks.

You might as well accept the TSA. Our lovely Democrats federalized them so they can't be fired for anything less than mass murder pedophilism with donkeys. Full super benefits forever, it's a primo job.

Need I remind you that A: the House and Senate were in Republican control when the TSA was pulled out of their asses and foisted on the nation, and B: if you want to turn this into a political rant, take it to the Lounge.

bobc
4-May-2007, 15:52
Matt,

I'm surprised that no one has has brought up the obvious of why you had such a big hassel: You were checking in on an international flight to the Republic of Texas...

I fly a chunk internationally and find that it's a breath of fresh air once I'm outside of the country. But, I also agree that TSA is now consistent and by and large, are professional.

Cheers,

roteague
5-May-2007, 04:01
There are still a few concerns. One is that they whole point of airport inspections seems to be to instill fear just shy of the point where travelers go into panic. This weekend, I was in Chicago where they repeatedly run a PA announcement in an ominous voice talking about raising the threat level, and "by order of the TSA", etc. The only purpose served is to intimidate the public. I don't think that is necessary.

You don't see this nonsense outside the US very often (perhaps the UK).

al olson
5-May-2007, 06:49
Air travel around the US is interesting because it seems that every airport has its own procedures.

After 9/11 when security was ramped up, I would request hand inspection of my films. To legitimize my request I would add a couple of rolls of 1600 (sacrificial, of course) to the clear plastic bag. This sometimes worked and sometimes it was not worth the hassle (the attendants would act very put upon and hold me up while they swabbed each and every roll) so ultimately I would just let them run the film through the x-ray. I was never able to detect any visible fogging, so now I let them x-ray the film.

My concern, though is that I have watched the x-ray technician back up the belt several times. The only reason I could see for doing that is to take another image, so in these cases your film may be getting more than one exposure. If this occurs often and your travels take your film through a number of checkpoints, the cummulative exposure could cause fogging.

Last month I made two trips from ABQ to SFO. On the second trip, ABQ had recently installed small enclosures (like a phone booth for those of you who are old enough to remember what they were) that you walk into before going to the x-ray and metal detectors.

It is enclosed on the sides with doors on the front, but the rear is open. You stand there for a while as you hear puffs of air being blown about. [Obviously they are sniffing for signitures of explosives and other combustible items. But we still had to take off our shoes.] Then the doors open and you proceed to the rest of the security check.

On my departure from SFO no such equipment was yet installed. This could be a test of a prototype system at a smaller airport to learn how much it slows down the security check process without creating a huge bottleneck.

On my last return from SFO, the security attendant at the x-ray machine asked me what I had in my camera bag.
Guardedly, I replied, "Cameras."
He: What kind of cameras?
Me: Film.
He: Is any of your film over 400 ISO?
Me: No, it is all 400 or less.
My bag then went onto the conveyer through the x-ray machine.

I assumed that this was an offer to handcheck my film. Perhaps with most of the camera equipment now digital they are not being deluged with requests for hand inspections and they are more willing to make them.

gregstidham
5-May-2007, 08:29
Funny thing I noticed.

I fly between Toronto and San Francisco every quarter or more.

In Canada, they still want to hand inspect all cameras and lenses after they pass through X-ray. Digital or film, it don't matter. One guy was actually curious about my "old film camera" a Leica M4-P. and was a little unsure of it. :) They want to look through the lenses and inside the bodies.

In the USA, they don't really care about the cameras. An x-ray is good enough for them.

Laptops get the same treatment in both countries.

BrianShaw
5-May-2007, 08:49
On my last return from SFO, the security attendant at the x-ray machine asked me what I had in my camera bag.
Guardedly, I replied, "Cameras."
He: What kind of cameras?

I have heard them (at LAX) specifically request that video cameras be taken out of bags... just like they require laptop computers to be out of bags during the screening process.