cheap first LF camera

[Storyteller]

Im trying to get into LF. I want to do really big prints, like couch prints, 2x5 feet, or 1x3 meters/yards, etc

I understand I will need 4x5 to print these, though some 120 might be ok or a few.

I have a very limited budget, like under $100 as ebay credit. I wont get much more for some time. I was thinking of getting an MF folder, like an Ikonta for 6x9, but its such a gamble, $20 + 10 shipping at the low end and it might not work, fixed lens, slow shutter.

I have seen Press cameras, such as a Busch Pressman go for $65 or so, many 4x5 Speeds for under 100$$. I think a press camera will be ok to start, I want to use some movements, but dont know if I need everything right away. Eventually, I want areally nice camera, but for now, a 4x5 I can shoot sheets and get a rollback for for MF stuff is the goal.

I read the article here on Press cameras as Field cameras, and i think that is the direction Im going. Yes, i want a $5-600 kit of syuff, but i wont be getting it in the next year or so, I want something to tide me over.
I have a couple of 35mm, but want to get into the better cameras.

So, try for a Press camera on ebay, like a Busch D, or get a MF folder, or look for something else?

[Terry Christian]

You indeed might get lucky and find a press camera for that price, but I think the cheapest LF cameras around and the only ones you can routinely find for around $100 are monorails. The advantage of a monorail is nearly infinite movements; the disadvantage is easy portability and setup, though I keep mine in a hiker's rigid backpack.

Good luck!

[John Kasaian]

A Calumet 400 or Graphic View I or II should fill the bill.

[vinny]

this question comes up at least once a week.
https://www.google.com/search?q=first+large+format+camera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
lately everyone who's getting into LF seems to do so because they want to make GIANT prints. How much will it cost you to make/mount a print that size?

[jp]

You can get functional $100 cameras. After you get a camera, you need to get some film holders, a lens, a box of film (which isn't cheap), enlarger or scanner, etc.. $100 budget quickly becomes several times that. But the $100 press camera with freebie lens because the shutter doesn't work smoothly and a film holder thrown in can be a good learning experience shooting paper negs, not going for high end fine art quality.

[Jim Jones]

A 4x5 press or monorail camera seems more practical than a roll film camera for large prints. The larger film is a great asset. The cameras are more versatile. Buying a camera with lens is often more economical than buying them seperately. Busch and especially Burke & James press cameras should be less expensive than later Speed Graphics. B&J also made a variety of monorail and flatbed cameras that are not elegant, but functional. Condition and price may be more important than brand.

[Pawlowski6132]

If you only have a $100 budget to get you form zero to a large print on a wall, forget it.

[Brian C. Miller]

$100 for a camera and lens? Yes, that can be done. That's a start, you can get results good enough for a wall-sized print, and it will quickly suck you down into the depths of, "this is fun, I need more!"

Since you just want something to "tide you over" until 2014, anything that is light-tight (no light leaks in the bellows) will work just fine, and provide a great start. I am guessing that you currently develop your own film. If not, then you need to start. I develop my film in my bathroom, and other members also happily use temporary darkrooms.

Another thing to do to get your start is to use a pinhole camera. These have been built from any scrap, even Lego blocks, and there are a few cheap commercially made cameras available. Just go to one of the pinhole sites, and look up how to make the pinhole itself. Then go and have some fun!

[rdenney]

If you only have a $100 budget to get you form zero to a large print on a wall, forget it.

Agreed. You can find decent old monorail view cameras for a hundred bucks, but then you'll need a lens--another hundred bucks for something old and marginal. Then, you'll spend another C-note for an old well-used tripod capable of holding the camera still enough for that much enlargement.

You'll need a cheapie loupe, a black towel as a focusing cloth, film holders, and a large amount of practice and experience.

Then, there are the expendables, like film, processing, printing. If you do that yourself, you're in for a pretty capable darkroom, or a high-end scanner and printer. That can be hired out to make really big prints, but more expensively than that hundred bucks...per photo.

Making big prints is hard and expensive, no matter what the technology. You might consider starting smaller and working up, which might be cheaper in the long run.

Rick "the only consolation is that doing it with digital cameras is a order of magnitude more expensive" Denney

[Brian C. Miller]

Making big prints is hard and expensive, no matter what the technology.

Actually, no. We just had a thread here about a new company offering huge prints for cheap. Storyteller needs to tell us a bit more about what he/she/it/they want(s). So far, what's requested is something cheap to play with for a year. That's entirely feasible. The OP has experience with a couple of 35mm cameras, and has stated that big prints are a final goal, probably at least two years out.

So: starter system for $100, with lens, yes, shop carefully. Pinhole for the cost of "gaffer's" tape (not duct tape) and spare cardboard, yes. A person doesn't need a loupe or a darkcloth or lots of crazy accessories to start. The OP will need at least a couple of filmholders, and chemicals. Paint trays have been used by lots of people for developing LF film, and those are very cheap. The OP can make some contact prints in a bathroom, no problem.

-- Brian "yes, you can start LF cheaply" Miller, who is still using his first LF camera.

[Bernice Loui]

Find a good used Sinar F system with lenses, film holders and etc. A Sinar can be expanded to fit most all imaging needs and the weight is not much more than a folder. Cost of the camera is only a fraction of the overall cost of image creation with sheet film. Film and processing cost alone will easily exceed that $100 during the initial learning curve.

There are brands beyond the Sinar F. Regardless, a camera system/package is a better value than trying to put it together from bits.

IMO, get a camera system that will not cause frustration, limitations and problem in the beginning as these are the little things that will cause grief and steepen the learning process.

As for large prints, it comes down to the desired image quality and audience a given image plays to and what may be acceptable for those involved.


Bernice

[rdenney]

Actually, no. We just had a thread here about a new company offering huge prints for cheap.

You'll have to send that cheap service a JPEG with enough resolution for around 300 pixels/inch at whatever print size to avoid giving up the quality that motivates using large-format in the first place. For example, a 4x5-foot print would require 259 megapixels, or just under 4000 spi during scanning. That will take some provendar.

Large-format can be inexpensive. Really big prints, not so much.

Making a 16x20" print in a home darkroom is not that easy. Even in my custom-built darkroom (when I had one), I had to use a cibachrome tube to make prints that size. I lacked the real estate for 16x20 trays, except for the one tray I used for washing the print. 11x14 is a lot easier. And the enlargers are cheap these days, but not free, once they are put in proper order.

16x20 using digital workflows requires a thousand-dollar printer (if buying a refurb) and a scanner that costs not much less than that. Doable by many amateurs, of course, but not for a hundred bucks. And that's limited to 16x20--going bigger requires serious effort and expense.

But most artists these days would not consider a 16x20" print "big" by any means.

Rick "sticking with his suggestion of working up to big prints" Denney

[John Kasaian]

The cheapest entry to LF & big prints I know of is pinhole. Pick up the cardboard box for $0 shoot paper negatives the size you want and contact print those----It'll cost you a box of enlarging paper, chemicals, trays, a graduate, a piece of glass, safe light and some clothes pins. Most of this would be scroungable or found used and should get you going for around $100

[Jim Jones]

Pinhole photography is merely an interesting diversion from the path to large prints. A basic 4x5 (or perhaps larger) camera with an adequate lens can produce negatives for scanning and producing large prints suitable for viewing by many people at some distance. With experience, the photographer can improve equipment and technique. The pursuit of perfection is endless and expensive. Good enough is good enough for many of us.

[John Kasaian]

Pinhole photography is merely an interesting diversion from the path to large prints. A basic 4x5 (or perhaps larger) camera with an adequate lens can produce negatives for scanning and producing large prints suitable for viewing by many people at some distance. With experience, the photographer can improve equipment and technique. The pursuit of perfection is endless and expensive. Good enough is good enough for many of us.
But it can get the OP producing photographs and prints. Building a kit you can be sympatico with takes time & $$ If your pursuit is to make prints, then make prints and build your kit when time and money allow, but the OP shouldn't use that as an excuse for not following his muse.

[Brian C. Miller]

Rick "sticking with his suggestion of working up to big prints" Denney

Absolutely right. The OP stated that they're looking for a cheap camera to futz around with for a year before having the money to buy something really good. So the real purchase of "quality" gear is in 2014 or later. The OP is not expecting to grab some cheap stuff and immediately have a gargantuan print made.

The big prints are down the road, but they are the OP's stated eventual goal.

As for the scanning work, I'm sure that Lenny would be more than happy to step up and give a wonderful scan at that resolution! ;)

So thus I do still recommend, to get the OP started doing something, start with pinhole. We are no longer in the land of Quickloads, Readyloads, and Polaroid Type 55, that which is entombed in someone's freezer notwithstanding. A new-to-LF photographer must learn properly loading the film holders and scratch-free development.

Obviously the OP is on a serious budget, so that means some serious thinking of how can the OP just get started. Pinhole, or Calumet/Cambo/Burk & James monorail (oh so cheap!) or aged press camera. The problem with eBay is that the seller can be ignorant, or just plain lie, and so the OP's money will be wasted on junk. KEH has some monorails that are very close to the OP's budget, but the OP's budget is an eBay credit, so the OP is going to have to take a gamble.

[Bruce B]

I have an old Speed Graphic with 127mm Ektar lens in a Graphic shutter that I'll send you if pay for shipping. The shutter works, but the camera has set around for so long the springs on the film slide back don't work very well. If you give me a couple weeks (wicked busy right now) I'll see what I can do about freeing up the springs. I'm mechanically inclined and have repaired a camera or two. Also have the proper lubricants if needed.

I also modified the front standard in a way I suspect you'll appreciate. The Speed Graphics had drop beds; that is, in order to get the bed for the focusing rails out of photos with wide-angle lenses one "dropped" the bed down out of the way. When one did so, however, it pointed the lens down, too. So the front standard was made so one could tilt the lens back to perpendicular and raise it up so it was again centered on the ground glass and film. Hmmm, said I way back when. So I reversed the front standard, never used the dropped bed. The result is a front standard that will let you tilt the lens forward and also raise the lens up. These two movements are called "front rise" and "front tilt," and they are the two movements one needs for landscape photography. The ground glass is good, and I'll check the shutter to be certain all the speeds work. But other than the springs on the film back, which I'll take a crack at fixing, everything works. This camera is basically indestructible and built like a tank. It will probably cost at least $20 to ship inside the US, but you can't beat the price. The lens mentioned folds inside the camera when it's closed.

Let me know with a private message,
BAB

[Storyteller]

You indeed might get lucky and find a press camera for that price, but I think the cheapest LF cameras around and the only ones you can routinely find for around $100 are monorails. The advantage of a monorail is nearly infinite movements; the disadvantage is easy portability and setup, though I keep mine in a hiker's rigid backpack.

Good luck!

Im looking mostly at a folding camera for outdoors, for indoors, probably just a decent medium format. I mostly want to do landscapes and city scapes, but I have not ruled out a monorail


A Calumet 400 or Graphic View I or II should fill the bill.

Im watching a calumet right now


this question comes up at least once a week.
https://www.google.com/search?q=first+large+format+camera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
lately everyone who's getting into LF seems to do so because they want to make GIANT prints. How much will it cost you to make/mount a print that size?

I can buy 42" by 30' rolls of ilford for a hundred bucks. Studio time, chemicals, etc, probably $100 per print, maybe more. But I can sell them for 10 times what I pay to make them. Thats the hope anyway.


You can get functional $100 cameras. After you get a camera, you need to get some film holders, a lens, a box of film (which isn't cheap), enlarger or scanner, etc.. $100 budget quickly becomes several times that. But the $100 press camera with freebie lens because the shutter doesn't work smoothly and a film holder thrown in can be a good learning experience shooting paper negs, not going for high end fine art quality.

I am really leaning toward a press camera, I am just wondering if it will have enough movements to justify getting one over an MF folder. At least enough to learn movements. I am looking around, and $500 seems to be the sweet spot, for lens, back and body for both a horseman folder and decent monorails. $300 is entry level, so I am looking to get a $3-500 camera next year. Will a press hold me over?

[Vascilli]

Im looking mostly at a folding camera for outdoors, for indoors, probably just a decent medium format. I mostly want to do landscapes and city scapes, but I have not ruled out a monorail



Im watching a calumet right now



I can buy 42" by 30' rolls of ilford for a hundred bucks. Studio time, chemicals, etc, probably $100 per print, maybe more. But I can sell them for 10 times what I pay to make them. Thats the hope anyway.



I am really leaning toward a press camera, I am just wondering if it will have enough movements to justify getting one over an MF folder. At least enough to learn movements. I am looking around, and $500 seems to be the sweet spot, for lens, back and body for both a horseman folder and decent monorails. $300 is entry level, so I am looking to get a $3-500 camera next year. Will a press hold me over?

Yep. I started LF a few years ago on a monorail and what really held me back was my unwillingness to take it anywhere. Press cameras offer enough movements for most applications. By the time you get a nice monorail or whatever next year you'll be comfortable with the LF process (Loading holders, composing and focusing, inserting the holders and firing the shutter, etc) so you can focus on movements. Take Bruce's Speed Graphic and you'll be good to go for a while.

[Bruce B]

Storyteller, not to squash your enthusiasm, but you should be VERY certain of selling a 42x30 print for $1000 before even considering trying to make one. I'm not certain what gallery you've been talking to, but selling 16x20 prints for $300 can be a problem. Just because it's big doesn't mean it will sell. Do you have the equipment to produce that size print? If you do, you wouldn't be worrying about the price of a 4x5 camera. What type enlarger would you use? Do you know about burning and dodging to finish a print? Do you know how hard it is to develope a piece of paper that size evenly? How are you going to wash the fixer out, in a bathtub? Or are you going to rely on a print service, and in that case, what are they going to charge you to produce the print? The service is not going to do that work on commission.

Large-format photography is basically about perfect perspective and prints that are so crisp and smooth that they are pieces of art. If that is not your basic goal, I'd suggest you back off a bit and look very carefully. Don't let me dissuade you from learning about medium and large-format film. But if your idea is just to make a mint off of wall-sized photos, I think you're in for a big disappointment.
BAB

[Storyteller]

oh absolutely. that is a long term goal... but things like a couch print that is 5 to 7 feet wide and tall enough to look right, say 2 feet. or something the size of a mirror yo u put on the back of your door... say a foot by 3 and a half feet tall. these kinds of things I want to do. 8x10s, I would just use my 35mm, or get a DSLR... maybe a MF. I wantto get into large format, to support the size of prints I have in mind. I expect these to be long sales and not sell a lot very often... but I think I would like to try. I dont think I will get more than one of these in the next year, maybe 2. But if I can, and sell them, I can buy better gear.

I am comfortable in 35mm. I have some more to learn in exposures and apertures and iso speeds... but for the most part, I am pretty happy with my results. however, as a format, it leaves a lot to be desires. No cropping or movements, nothing you can really do, but line up a shot and shoot. Medium format is good, but for the costinvolved, i think it may be better to go up to 4x5. I dont think I will be shooting much bigger than 4x5.. maybe, but unlikely. To me, it gives me the movements I want to work with, to get the shots I want and the size to do the enlargements i need. I can also put a roll back on it, and not need a MF camera, I can just have the one.


For printing, there is one place in town with a photo enlarger that can go this size. it is costly to rent, but I think worth it, they have some experience with this sort of thing. A vacuum board to hold the paper this large and a projection enlarger for this sort of thing. for most 8x10 or smaller, Im adding a darkroom at the house to use.

[Bruce B]

That's a logical plan/perspective. Best of luck. BAB

[welly]

I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Get a Cambo 4x5 monorail and a 150mm lens ($300?). You're not going to get a field camera and lens for $100. Learn how to use that and then think about 7 foot wide prints.

[BetterSense]

A box of 4x5 TMY costs $90 nowadays.

Just sayin'.

[Jim Jones]

Storyteller, I agree that moving directly from 35mm to 4x5 with the ultimate goal of quite large prints is logical. Producing large prints that will command high prices may prove more difficult than expected. Some discriminating buyers expect a level of craftsmanship that can take much practice to acquire. In many markets you will be competing with photographers with experience in marketing and in making fine photos. A modest 4x5 with one decent lens is a good start. If your 16x20 or 24x30 prints sell well, you can afford to upgrade the equipment. If sales are disappointing, you haven't lost a large investment, and have a camera that should be a pleasure to use just for yourself.

[gevalia]

Under $100, good luck. Realistically just not going to happen. I would not even attempt it unless you put aside $300 to cover a camera, lens, film, 1 holder; assuming you will send your film for development and printing.

[cosmicexplosion]

I want a really big fast car that has top notch luxury
But I only have enough $$ for a push bike.

[jnantz]

But it can get the OP producing photographs and prints. Building a kit you can be sympatico with takes time & $$ If your pursuit is to make prints, then make prints and build your kit when time and money allow, but the OP shouldn't use that as an excuse for not following his muse.

+1

a very big box and a roll of paper,
and a few wall paper troughs ( or big sink )
and a second long piece of paper,
and a bit of wax and heat, and large piece of glass
( bigger than the paper ) should do the trick ...

oh and the sun ...

good luck storyteller !
john

[Light Guru]

Just build one out of Legos.

http://carynorton.com/legotron-mark-i

[Daniel Stone]

Look ma! No lens required! Too bad its out of budget by $119... Even comes w/ paper too, but you'll need to buy chems.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/826648-REG/Ilford_1172566_Harman_Titan_Pinhole_Camera.html

85825

[Storyteller]

wow, missed a B&J 4x5 body with good bellows for 70$$ today. Called the shop, asked questions.. man, so close. I slept on it and it was gone when I got up.. guess it wasnt meant to be. Had the same thing happen on a Busch Pressman the other day too. So I know they are out there, I just have to be vigilant!

[David Lobato]

For huge prints the reality is you will need a fairly modern lens in good condition and a well built camera that locks down tight and does not wobble. Welly's advice on page 3 is accurate. My entries into 4x5 and years later into 8x10 started with bottom feeding the used market. It's frustrating trying to fix equipment problems, broken parts, and unstable operation. Skip the ultra low budget old cameras and go direct to a realistic goal of 3 times your $100 expectation. Look for Toyo, Calumet, and Cambo 4x5 monorail cameras. They are amazingly useful and easy to learn with. Look for 135mm, 150mm, 180mm Caltar, Nikkor, Schneider Symmar, and Rodenstock Sironar lenses. They are reasonably priced and camera/lens combinations can be found for sale as low as $250. An adequate tripod is also a must. You can then take a low budget approach on accessories because you will need funds for film and processing.

Oddly enough, a used medium format 6x9 or 6x7 camera will probably cost more, and with not quite the results you're after. 4x5 is very gratifying when you see your first nice pictures.

[Storyteller]

I just got a tripod.. its not quite what I need for large format, but should be ok to get started

its here: I paid 99 cents plus $22 shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150968065123?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

with what is there, its about 200 worth of gear, 150 at least.

my local camera store can set me up with a decent monorail for about 300$, same on ebay. My goal is this time next year I will have saved enough to cover a decent 4x5 for production work. Right now, I just want something to learn on. Im looking at medium format and 4x5 press cams.. I think Ican pull this off if Im careful. I may need to buy a lens one month and the camera the next, but I can spend a little extra that way.

[Alan Gales]

Promaster rates your tripod for 35mm and strong enough for medium format. I take this as meaning some medium format. An RB or RZ67 will probably tax it especially with a 180mm or larger lens. I wouldn't put a monorail on it. Not only do you have more weight with a monorail but after you rack out the bellows it gets out of balance on a weaker tripod.

I'm a cheapskate by necessity and am all about buying on the cheap. I have bought whole monorail outfits just for one lens and then parted everything out and ended up owning the one lens for free. Well not exactly free, I had to do all the work. Sometimes you have to just buck-up and pay more than your budget allows. I wanted an 8x10 camera but couldn't afford what I wanted so I sold my five 35mm Zeiss lenses to help pay for it. Some people even get part time jobs to help pay for their hobbies.

I like Sinar and feel it's the best deal overall but on such a limited budget I would look for a later model Calumet or Cambo monorail like others on here have recommended. A 135mm to 210mm lens from Fuji, Nikon, Rodenstock, Schneider or a Caltar lens in a Copal shutter would be a great choice. A lot of times you can find a monorail outfit that someone is selling that has a lens, film holders, loupe, dark cloth, etc. included. These are usually the best deals.

Good luck to you!

[mikedlt]

Cheap tripods for large format? Check out ebay for an old Safe-Lock tripod. Mine was made for a Graflex in the 1960's or so. I use it for large format cameras, and for holding a small 90mm Celestron telescope. They are stable, made of aluminum tube and castings, but not exactly carbon fiber!

[Storyteller]

my folks got me a speed something for the holiday, I wont get it for a week or so, but I know its coming. no idea what model or what lens, or even if it work, but it comes with a speed "23" 6x9 holder... so thats a plus. If nothing else, I can strip it for parts and save on the next one. Pretty excited to see what it is.

[RichardSperry]

Keep doing what you're doing. Good score on the tripod.

When you start selling your prints, you'll be able to go back and buy all the expensive stuff if you want.

One significant advantage of having inexpensive stuff, you won't be afraid to take it out, get it banged up, dirty, or wet. And you'll probably get shots I wouldn't because I'm too protective of my gear.

Keep it up.

Ps, people like big prints. And people will buy them too, both Andreas Gursky and Cindy Sherman print real big. Spencer Tunick does too.

And don't be afraid of using one lens either. Roman Loranc mostly uses one lens for his stuff, and you really can't tell. It's definitely not a limiting factor in his art. And when you factor that into the deal it adds something to his work, at least for me.

[Storyteller]

the camera my folks got me is a Century. I have read up. It has the Trioptar 103mm, so certainly an entry level camera. It has a '23' back, so no ground glass. Still, it will be a decent basic system I can use for sometime, until I can get a 4x5.

[Brian C. Miller]

Graflex Century Graphic (http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/century-graphic.html)
See if you can get a back with a ground glass, as that camera does have some movements you can use. You'll have to swap back and forth with your roll film back, but that's OK. Also, if you get a good, compact 90mm lens, as you can also use that with a 4x5 in the future.