Crown Graphic, Speed Graphic: focal plane shutter...

[Dean Taylor]

hello--

Doing homework before LF equipment purchase...

interests: BW exclusively, street photography, night photos as well...

A dealer has a CG, excellent condition, for around $400, with Schneider Xenar 135 4.7

no focal plane, of course...having noted that,

Q: have you Speed Graphic owners used the focal plane shutter to any extent? I understand there is the possibility of more lens options therein--i.e., barrel lenses, etc. Please define 'barrel lens' (as, e.g., they pertain to the Speed Graphic). If it is deemed a particular useful feature, I might do well to wait until I can locate a Speed Graphic...

also...if I wanted the option of a close-up portrait capability, what type of lens would be needed? Might the Schneider lens noted above suit that purpose? My untutored sense of the matter understands that lens to be the rough equivalent of a 35mm slr 50mm 'normal' lens--correct? In which case, another lens would be needed. Please advise...

Best,

Dean

[Denis Pleic]

A Speed Graphic is a bit heavier, but, on the other hand, you get the possibility of using "barrel lenses" - i.e. lenses without shutter: old brass lenses, etc. - heck, you could glue a magnifier lens to a lens board made of cardboard, and experiment :)

A Speed Graphic, due to its focal plane shutter, is therefore much more versatile camera than a Crown. With the Crown Graphic, you must use lenses in shutter. The advantage of Crown is that you can use shorter FL lenses than on a Speed. Crown can be used with 65mm lens, if I'm not mistaken, while the shortest you can go on a Speed Graphic would be something like 75-80mm.

As for the focal length, for portraits you could use anything from 150mm to 210mm. 135mm is somewhat wide for portraits, probably not what you are looking for. 180mm wold be a much better option for portraits.

A good source for info on Graflex-made cameras (Speed Graphic, Crown Graphic, etc.) is www.graflex.org.

On my site (http://www.denis.pleic.com/photo/funky2/index.html), I have shown some things you can do with a Speed Graphic - with barrel lenses, close-up adapters, etc.

[Dan Fromm]

Dean, as Denis wrote, go to www.graflex.org. As he didn't right, read the FAQs. "Speed Graphic" includes a number of vintages with different features, if you buy any old Speed Graphic you may not get what you expect. As long as you're going to read FAQs, read the FAQs here too.

Go to ebay.com, look at concluded auctions for Speed Graphics (pay attention to format and model) and Crown Graphics (pay attention to format). Then you'll have a crude idea of the going rate. I don't follow 'em, suspect that $400 is on the high side, but not unheard of, for a 4x5 Crown in good order.

Denis advised you, but not as explicitly as possible, about the range of lenses that can be used on 4x5 Graphics. The 4x5 Pacemaker Graphics' (these are the latest ones, made from 1947 -on) limiting dimensions are: minimum extension, Crown/Speed: 52.4 mm/66.7 mm; maximum extension, Crown/Speed: 317 mm/323 mm. The longest lenses normally used with both are 380 mm (15") telephoto lenses.

I have a 2x3 Pacemaker Speed Graphic, 2 2x3 Crowns, and a Century Graphic (2x3 Crown with plastic body and minus a few features). I use my Speed's focal plane shutter with a few lenses in barrel, much prefer to use lenses in barrel mounted in front of a leaf shutter. This because the Pacemaker Speed Graphic's slowest timed shutter speed is 1/30.

Adapters to hold lenses in front of a shutter can be expensive. Going this way rarely makes economic sense unless one has several lenses that will fit the same adapter.

Denis has done some cute things with his Graphic and lenses. So have I with mine, see http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf

If you read my lens diary, you'll see that I have a heap of lenses in barrel. I don't regret getting them but can't suggest too strongly that anyone who wants to get a barrel lens think very hard about the alternatives. The alternatives can be much less expensive. I'm talking about modern lenses (all anastigmats). Pre-anastigmats are another story entirely.

[Jim Jones]

A useable Crown or Speed Graphic should cost much less than $400, depending on where you are located. In addition to graflex.org, a great source of information is Graphic Graflex Photography by Morgan & Lester, or by Morgan & Morgan in later editions. Get at least the 8th edition for side rangefinder Crown and Pacemaker Graphics. Perhaps the 11th edition includes top rangefinder models. When planning for LF photography, budget for film holders, darkroom equipment and supplies, and a sturdy tripod.

[premortho]

I think a Speed Graphic is much more versatile than a Crown...unless you want to use very short focus lenses. But for good "drawing", a 6 or 7 inch is much better. As far as slow speeds go, I use "T" on the focal plane shutter. Very easy to learn how to time your exposures by using words that take a finite amount of time to say. For example "one chimpanzee" is about one second. "click-uh" about a tenth, and so forth. Learn to use "T" while looking through the ground glass. Use enough tension to get a good action from the shutter. Don't use more tension than for a clean exposure...too much tension causes shutter "bounce".

[Bill_1856]

The 4x5 Speed weighs over a pound more than the Crown, and is considerably more awkward to hold. The advantage of using "barrel mount" lenses disappeared many years ago, when between-the-lens shutters became reliable, inexpensive, and except for top speed essentially replaced the need for focal-plane shutters. I 've owned both and recommend that you forget the Speed.
A 10" Tele-Raptar lens works wonderfully for portraits. The other reasonable/cheap option is to use your 135mm lens and get a roll film back.

[photobymike]

The Speed is limited on the wide angle lens use. There are some lenses that need to be closer to the film at infinite than the focal plane shutter would allow.... i have owned a few Graflex cameras and i have never seen one with a shutter that worked right. i am sure there are some out there. Also it is hard to find a Graflex that has a good range finder. I would go with a kalhart rangefinder because that does not use a cam and can be adjusted. I used to shoot weddings with Graflex but have sold them all and now use Hasselblad. The lenses are better...really really better. The there is the back.... there are problems with the backs, the glass, and the fresnel .... anyway after years of using Graflex i really liked the spring back. It holds the film holders tighter.... yea ok you cannot use 2 1/4 film holder ..ahh yes you can....there are many holders that will work with the spring back ...... oh and one more thing..... distance scales ..there are about 25 scales for the 135 lens alone.... so if you can find a Graflex that is factory original that has not been messed with you have found a gem...

[Dan Fromm]

Re limits with short lenses, the minimum flange-to-film distances are:

4x5 Pacemaker Crown Graphic: 52.4 mm

4x5 Pacemaker Speed Graphic: 66.7 mm

[photobymike]

Sooo Dan a 65mm lens might work at infinite on a Speed Graphic?

lol lol just to be clear

[Vick Ko]

I'm intrigued, do you want to do "hand held" street photography?

I'm currently enthralled by my Crown Graphic, using its rangefinder for hand held instant (Fuji FP100C) photography. I've got a 135mm lens on it, and so far, finding it a bit wide for portraiture.

Key thing to me is that the rangefinder and lens are properly calibrated, and I'm not using the ground glass for focusing and composing. In a way, I don't feel that I'm in full "large format" mode yet.

[premortho]

I use my Speeder for hand-held photography. I've owned two of them. The shutters work fine on them both. I bought the newest one (to me) 5 years ago. For landscapes and portraiture and other tripod work, I think there are better choices. I use a Burke & James Speed Press 45 for that kind of work. It has many more front movements available. I bought one off of e-bay with a 6 1/2" Raptar in a Rapax shutter. I prefer that lens for the things I do with this camera. It also comes with a reversable back, which I like. The only thing you can't do with it is use barrel lenses, which the Speed does, of course. I prefer the Aniversary model as it is much easier to make lens boards for. As far as Hassleblads go, I've never seen one in 4X5, and it is a reflex camera, like an RB Graflex. If you prefer reflex cameras, it's a good one. I have trouble composing on the ground glass on reflex cameras. But maybe that's just me.

[Michael Cienfuegos]

I use my Speeder for hand-held photography. I've owned two of them. The shutters work fine on them both. I bought the newest one (to me) 5 years ago. For landscapes and portraiture and other tripod work, I think there are better choices. I use a Burke & James Speed Press 45 for that kind of work. It has many more front movements available. I bought one off of e-bay with a 6 1/2" Raptar in a Rapax shutter. I prefer that lens for the things I do with this camera. It also comes with a reversable back, which I like. The only thing you can't do with it is use barrel lenses, which the Speed does, of course. I prefer the Aniversary model as it is much easier to make lens boards for. As far as Hassleblads go, I've never seen one in 4X5, and it is a reflex camera, like an RB Graflex. If you prefer reflex cameras, it's a good one. I have trouble composing on the ground glass on reflex cameras. But maybe that's just me.

I have two Speeders and a few RB Graflexes. I love the RB's, especially the Series D 3x4. Too bad 3x4 film is so hard to get. I still have some Ilford special order FP4+, but will have to revert to the roll film adapter if I run out before the new orders come in. My big problem with the Speeds is the weight, I have a difficult time using them hand held any more.

[nonuniform]

I've got 7 Graphics - 2x Speeds, one with TopRF, and one with SideRF. The Crowns, 2 with SideRF, 3 with TopRF.

It's just a really bad habit. Currently making my own RF cams. It's a slow process!

[premortho]

I've only had three Graphics in my whole life. My first was a pre-Anniversary, a gift from my grandfather, in 1947. The second was a 3.25X4.25 RB Graflex that I bought in Detroit, because I'd left my Speeder at home in California. My current one, an Anniversary with Grafloc back. I had to buy that one because some vandals burned my house down, cameras within, of course. In my opinion, the Speed is the most versatile hand held camera ever made. I don't think it's too heavy, and I'm 75 years old. Nice negative size, good rangefinder, good viewfinder with parallax adjustments speedfinder with parallax adjustments, and heavy enough to make hand held exposures possible down to 1/10th second. And no wastage of film, like with rollfilm cameras. You just gotta learn how to get the best out of it. I use pan film, ortho film and paper negatives in mine. I prefer the Anniversary Model for two important reasons. First, because lensboards are very easy to make, and second because of the better shutter speeds available on this, and previous models. If you buy one, be sure to get a copy of Morgan & Lester's book, "Graphic and Graflex Photography".
I've got 7 Graphics - 2x Speeds, one with TopRF, and one with SideRF. The Crowns, 2 with SideRF, 3 with TopRF.

It's just a really bad habit. Currently making my own RF cams. It's a slow process!

[Vincent Pidone]

Dean,

It's hinted at above, but not made explicit, that there are two different kinds of backs for these cameras:

Spring back, which just takes regular film holders, and the Graflok back, which allows you to use standard film holders, roll film holders and Polaroid backs.

You can find the vintage Graflex catalogs describing the difference on CameraEccentric's web site.

If you might want to shoot Fuji instant film in a Polaroid 405 back, or shoot 120 roll film, it makes sense to hold out for a camera with a Graflock back.

If you're not in a hurry, you can almost be certain that one will turn up on your local Craig's List for a lot less than $400 sometime over the summer.

It you're patient, that $400 will buy you both a Crown and a Speed, and you can decide for yourself which is best.

Note how many confess to owning more than one. It's a slippery slope.

If you want to try the Burke & James, I've got one that you can have for cheap.

[Steven Tribe]

Graflex.org

[premortho]

I didn't want to confuse the issue, but there are really three backs, believe it or not, in semi availability. The Grafloc, of course, and two spring backs. One is the Graphic back, the other the Graflex back. It doesn't make any sense now to have two different spring backs available, but it did way back when. A lot of newspapers used both Graphic and Graflex cameras until after WWII. Graflex cameras came in only their own back style, so some newspapers ordered their Graphics with Graflex style backs. If you are interested in selling that B & J 4
x5, I'd be interested.
Dean,

It's hinted at above, but not made explicit, that there are two different kinds of backs for these cameras:

Spring back, which just takes regular film holders, and the Graflok back, which allows you to use standard film holders, roll film holders and Polaroid backs.

You can find the vintage Graflex catalogs describing the difference on CameraEccentric's web site.

If you might want to shoot Fuji instant film in a Polaroid 405 back, or shoot 120 roll film, it makes sense to hold out for a camera with a Graflock back.

If you're not in a hurry, you can almost be certain that one will turn up on your local Craig's List for a lot less than $400 sometime over the summer.

It you're patient, that $400 will buy you both a Crown and a Speed, and you can decide for yourself which is best.

Note how many confess to owning more than one. It's a slippery slope.

If you want to try the Burke & James, I've got one that you can have for cheap.

[Dan Fromm]

Are you sure that the Graflex back is a spring back?

I ask because my little RB Series B Graflex SLR has a Graflex back. One edge of the film holder slips under a fixed retainer, the other is held in place by a slider. No springs anywhere.

The Graflok back has springs, a film holder can be slipped under a Graflok back's focusing panel just as it can under a Graphic (for sure spring) back's focusing panel. The differences between the two are that the Graphic back's focusing panel is permanently attached to the camera, while the Graflok's is detachable and can be replaced by, e.g., a roll holder that will be held in place by two sliders.

[premortho]

My apologies. It was 50 years ago that I had that graflex. All I remember is that the light trap between the film holder and camera was different. But, still, there are three patterns of back.

[Kevin Crisp]

I prefer the Crown, it is smaller and lighter and can fit in a 35mm shoulder bag very easily. I don't miss the focal plane shutter I used to have on the first one I bought, which was a speed.

If the Crown is indeed "excellent" with a clean lens and a Graflok back, I don't think $400 is much out of line these days.

The telephotos are excellent lenses and by design help with length of bellows issue. The 15" one, in particular is a gem.

[Tin Can]

Hi premortho,

I saw your recommendation for 'Graphic and Graflex Photography.' Thanks, and I just bought a 1947 8th printing. I can't wait!

Buying my first 4x5 Press camera, got me into LF and camera collecting.

I find them to be excellent cameras and the the Century's are so lightweight.




I've only had three Graphics in my whole life. My first was a pre-Anniversary, a gift from my grandfather, in 1947. The second was a 3.25X4.25 RB Graflex that I bought in Detroit, because I'd left my Speeder at home in California. My current one, an Anniversary with Grafloc back. I had to buy that one because some vandals burned my house down, cameras within, of course. In my opinion, the Speed is the most versatile hand held camera ever made. I don't think it's too heavy, and I'm 75 years old. Nice negative size, good rangefinder, good viewfinder with parallax adjustments speedfinder with parallax adjustments, and heavy enough to make hand held exposures possible down to 1/10th second. And no wastage of film, like with rollfilm cameras. You just gotta learn how to get the best out of it. I use pan film, ortho film and paper negatives in mine. I prefer the Anniversary Model for two important reasons. First, because lensboards are very easy to make, and second because of the better shutter speeds available on this, and previous models. If you buy one, be sure to get a copy of Morgan & Lester's book, "Graphic and Graflex Photography".

[Shootar401]

$400 is too much to spend for a Crown, you can get a Speed with a good lens for around $250 if you look, crowns can be a bit less expensive at around $200.

[Peter York]

If you only use lenses in shutter, a Speeder has one advantage: consistent speeds of 1/500th and 1/1000th. Otherwise go with a Crown.

[premortho]

What Peter says is correct. If you will never use a Petzval lens, or a landscape achromat, or other lenses in barrel mount, you don't need a Speeder. And with modern high speed film, a shutter speed of 1/250th or1/300th is plenty fast enough. I'm not as impressed as others are with Pacemaker Speed Graphics, or Super Graphics. The earlier models have many more speeds available on the focal plane shutter than the later ones do. Likewise, earlier front shutters that are not synched usually have solenoid shutter trippers, which work even better than cable releases, assuming you have the flash attachment.
If you only use lenses in shutter, a Speeder has one advantage: consistent speeds of 1/500th and 1/1000th. Otherwise go with a Crown.

[Alan Gales]

Crowns have really gone up in price and $400.00 isn't bad for a clean late model with Xenar and working rangefinder and light. Just check Ebay prices.

The 135mm lens is nice for environmental portraits but not for close ups. Do what I did with my Crown. I added an inexpensive 210mm Caltar lens (rebadged Rodenstock Geronar). These lenses have sold for less than $100.00 on Ebay lately. It even folds up into the camera like the 135mm Xenar. I also added an extra set of infinity stops for the 210. Of course I can't use the rangefinder for the 210 but I don't shoot 4x5 hand held anyway. That's what my Hasselblad is for! :)

[Alan Gales]

One more thing. If you need a tripod pick up an old used Tilt-all for less than $100.00. I paid $75.00 for mine and it works great.