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MUDeye
11-Dec-2012, 19:46
Just purchased a Voigtlander 9 x 12 camera. It came with vintage film holders, in various conditions. Can I recondition them (how?). Do they need to be converted to sheet film? They all still have glass negatives in them, once they are removed it seem like there will be a lot wiggle room for sheet film. Can I purchase new holders? I have read that the external dimensions of the 4 x 5 holders are the same as 9 x 12. Will any brand do?

This is my first large format camera and would love to have any feed back that lessens my failure to success ratio.

Cheers!

Jiri Vasina
12-Dec-2012, 00:35
Hello MUDeye,

if the camera came with holders with glass negatives in them, you would need to adapt them for use with film. As you rightly note, a film sheet would not be held tight in the holder, and also the registration would be wrong. You need to make a spacer slightly less thick than the glass negative to put behind the film sheet.

I would not recommend buying new holders, because they would most probably not fit the back of your camera. The Voigtländer is IMO older than the standards by which modern holders are made. You could adapt the back for use with modern holders, but it would require some precision woodworking - I have done something like that years ago to an Ica Ideal 325 camera, which takes 10x15cm film/glass negatives - http://www.vasina.net/?page_id=17 (it's in Czech, but the second image shows the homemade back).

And third, you are correct that modern 9x12cm and 4x5" holders have the same external dimensions.

Hope this helps...

Jiri

leighmarrin
12-Dec-2012, 02:22
Are any of your old 9x12cm holders marked Kodak? If so, Nagel made some 9x12cm holders for Kodak that will work with BOTH sheet film and glass plates. If not, you'll have to find 9x12cm FILM SHEATHS, which are fairly common. They will allow you to use sheet film in your old plate holders. Also, 120 rollfilm backs are fairly common. While the Kodak holders will fit your Voigtlander, there are a lot of single-sided plate holders that will not, so be careful in buying more holders. I believe nearly all Voightlanders used the same type of holder also used in the Zeiss/Ica Maximar and Kodak/Nagel Recomar, so you've probably got the most common type of the many vintage holders.

Linhof and others have made MODERN double-sided 9x12cm film holders that will fit in a 4x5 spring back, but they will not fit in your old Voigtlander without heavy modification.

Steven Tribe
12-Dec-2012, 02:59
Availability of 9x12 film sheaths (especialy ebay Deutschland) is not as easy as it was a few years ago.
Apart from the Kodak sheaths, Agfa also made them.
There are plenty of homemade, ill-fitting, sheaths around which cause problems in the dark room/bag!

Sevo
12-Dec-2012, 03:37
I would not recommend buying new holders, because they would most probably not fit the back of your camera. The Voigtländer is IMO older than the standards by which modern holders are made. You could adapt the back for use with modern holders, but it would require some precision woodworking -

Close to their end Voigtländer made a studio optical bench camera. If it is none of these but one of their pocket folding sheet film cameras, it will be some of the German/European sheet metal holder types. Being a Voigtländer probably "Normalfalz" type, but YMMV, all makers delivered a variety of types on demand and workshops offered additional modifications.

As sheet metal holders are thinner and much smaller than International, adapting the latter to a pocket folder will destroy the camera in every aesthetic or collectors aspect, without making it really useful (or retaining its pocketability) - the spring back would be almost twice the camera size.

MUDeye
12-Dec-2012, 08:30
Are any of your old 9x12cm holders marked Kodak? If so, Nagel made some 9x12cm holders for Kodak that will work with BOTH sheet film and glass plates. If not, you'll have to find 9x12cm FILM SHEATHS, which are fairly common. They will allow you to use sheet film in your old plate holders. Also, 120 rollfilm backs are fairly common. While the Kodak holders will fit your Voigtlander, there are a lot of single-sided plate holders that will not, so be careful in buying more holders. I believe nearly all Voightlanders used the same type of holder also used in the Zeiss/Ica Maximar and Kodak/Nagel Recomar, so you've probably got the most common type of the many vintage holders.

Linhof and others have made MODERN double-sided 9x12cm film holders that will fit in a 4x5 spring back, but they will not fit in your old Voigtlander without heavy modification.

Three are Voigtlander and the rest are A/P paris?

Steven Tribe
12-Dec-2012, 09:22
Apart from Germany, France and the USSR made lots of plate holders for 9x12cm folders.
You will have better chances by looking for film sheaths. These fit every kind of 9x12cm plate holders perfectly.
I have quite a number but have sold down to minimum number (9) I wish to retain for my 9x12 cameras.

These sheaths were made for:

1/4 plate
9x12cm
5x7
13x18cm
1/2 plate
18x24cm

and probably other sizes, like 10x15cm and 1/1 plate (not seen though)!

Sevo
12-Dec-2012, 10:24
These sheaths were made for:

...

and probably other sizes, like 10x15cm and 1/1 plate (not seen though)!

When shopping on ebay (or mail/internet order in general) it may help to be aware that they also were made in sizes adapting between formats. Most commonly 9x12 film to 10x15cm plate holders, since the German 10x15 "postcard" format became increasingly rare at about the same time as film took over from plates. Sellers often are unaware of that and only give the 9x12 (inner) dimension.

leighmarrin
13-Dec-2012, 02:40
I checked eBay for 9x12cm film sheaths, and found a seller in the UK who appears to have 5; 3 are made by Kodak. In his description he calls them "sliders", but his photo clearly shows them marked as film sheaths.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Kodak-Cut-Film-Sheaths-9x12cm-May-11th-1915-Plus-Other-Film-Sheaths-/300831989864?pt=UK_Photography_VintagePhotography_VintagePhotoAccessories&hash=item460afbe068

Wonder which Voigtlander you have? A Vag, Avus, Bergheil, or? I've several of them, and enjoy using them once in a while. FYI, the Jobo daylight 2521 tank and 2509 reel is a great way to develop six sheets of 9x12cm or 4x5 film. It's large and requires 1.5l of solution, but I'm able to agitate mine by hand inversion.

Steven Tribe
13-Dec-2012, 04:10
Yes indeed! A search using 9x12 will often uncover these items - especialy in Germany.
Kodak printed very clear identification on the reverse side and had the impressed steel ridges to stiffen them.
The other makers, apart from Agfa, have little or nothing on them and were just plain steel.