Ebay - Think this seller is a happy puppy?

[Capocheny]

http://codenerdz.com/blog/2012/12/03/think-of-selling-on-ebay-using-paypal-think-again/

Yikes!

[welly]

I've been lucky I haven't any issues with paypal/ebay (although I did have one a while ago that left me $30 out of pocket). Part of me wants nothing to do with eBay and Paypal because of their behaviour and lack of assistance in issues with such as this but the other half of me find both those resources very useful, and not just for camera gear either. I'm a bit torn. They're scumbags but they've got me by the balls.

[Alan Gales]

The Seller needs to file a police report.

[domaz]

I don't think this is just Paypal. The same sort of thing happens to people with merchant accounts, (i.e. fradulent chargebacks). Yes a police report is the best course of action. The real problem is that the Credit Card system is broken.

[Steve Smith]

This is the bit I have a problem with
Only sell to people with significant positive feedback

We all started at zero. If everybody adopted this selling technique, no one would ever buy or sell anything.


Steve.

[CP Goerz]

I don't think you can block bidders with, say, less than ten feedbacks. Buyers with minus feedback ratings can be blocked I think though. As a 'buyer only' on ebay you'll have nothing but a perfect record which is no indication of 'honesty'.

[Len Middleton]

I don't think you can block bidders with, say, less than ten feedbacks. Buyers with minus feedback ratings can be blocked I think though. As a 'buyer only' on ebay you'll have nothing but a perfect record which is no indication of 'honesty'.

But of course the problem is that with the potential issues involved for those of us who occasionally sold on eBay are not prepared to take on the risk and aggravation of feeBay and PayMyPal, hence now only a buyer.

Still surprised some legal firm in the US has not yet organized and launched a class action, unless of course there are no grounds...

[BetterSense]

I went through a very similar ordeal...I put the dispute resolution together nicely and I thought there was no possible way that Paypal would support the buyer, since it was so obvious he scamming. It didn't matter. They charged my paypal account back and everything, for a scammer. That's the last thing I ever sold on eBay. I only use Paypal if there is no other choice, and I don't accept it.

[EdSawyer]

the only reason this seller got a refund is he made it visible enough to be uncomfortable to the scumbags @ preypal and eprey. Normal folks most likely won't have that option.

The only possible way to avoid this is to ship only after you have transferred the money out of paypal into your own account (where they can't get it). Looks like this seller had a 21 day (or longer?) hold on the funds so he was kind of screwed that way too. That's another scumbagish preypal tactic for things they think are 'high-risk' items.

[Michael Batchelor]

I quit selling anything on eBay several years ago because of this exact reason.

If I'm buying something and the vendor doesn't like Paypal then I'm perfectly happy to do something different for them. I'm capable of evaluating on a case by case basis what risk I am willing to take with the vendor and what risk I am not willing to take.

So far, knock on wood (rapping the side of my head) I have not gotten screwed.

[RichardSperry]

http://youtu.be/7eIUOUfhoJ8

[photobymike]

I had this happen to me on a laptop i shipped to Ireland 3 years ago...... i refused to ship the laptop and tried to refund the guys money......i could see it coming.... i refunded the guys money but before i did he emailed the local sheriff about me with a bunch of lies.... the sheriff detective told me he would arrest me if i did not ship right away.(he was really ignorant about how paypal worked)... i did and the credit card reversed and i am out 1500 hundred dollars.... i tried to complain to the sheriff and they just laughed at me for trusting someone overseas. An expensive lesson...

[CP Goerz]

'The only possible way to avoid this is to ship only after you have transferred the money out of paypal into your own account (where they can't get it).'


That won't help. If you read the many fine print pages that are adhered to the 'consent' button you clicked to have a paypal account you'll see that they can ,and will, draw funds from your credit card or bank account to cover the chargeback.

[photobymike]

I now only sell cheap stuff ...nothing over 3 hundred or so.....very rarely will i go over this sell limit and only if i can afford to loose it....

what am i saying ....i cant afford to loose anything... i am starving here... jeeez it is a cruel world... I would have shipped the iphone with the locator on so i could track the bastard down and ....uhm and collect on him....

[Vlad Soare]

That won't help. If you read the many fine print pages that are adhered to the 'consent' button you clicked to have a paypal account you'll see that they can ,and will, draw funds from your credit card or bank account to cover the chargeback.
One can overcome this problem by linking one's PayPal account to a dedicated debit (not credit!) card which is always empty. That's what I do.
Whenever I want to buy something on-line, whether directly or via PayPal, I first use my bank's home banking system, which is available 24/7 and works in real time, to transfer the precise transaction amount from my main account to that debit card, then make the on-line payment.

[Roger Cole]

This is the bit I have a problem with

We all started at zero. If everybody adopted this selling technique, no one would ever buy or sell anything.


Steve.

You start out by buying several small, inexpensive purchases. People are likely to trust you on that.



I don't think you can block bidders with, say, less than ten feedbacks. Buyers with minus feedback ratings can be blocked I think though. As a 'buyer only' on ebay you'll have nothing but a perfect record which is no indication of 'honesty'.

The problem with that is, sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers. So it's IMPOSSIBLE to have negative buyer feedback.


the only reason this seller got a refund is he made it visible enough to be uncomfortable to the scumbags @ preypal and eprey. Normal folks most likely won't have that option.

The only possible way to avoid this is to ship only after you have transferred the money out of paypal into your own account (where they can't get it). Looks like this seller had a 21 day (or longer?) hold on the funds so he was kind of screwed that way too. That's another scumbagish preypal tactic for things they think are 'high-risk' items.

As others explained, that won't work and if you read the linked story the seller DID transfer the money out. They may have even linked to a debit card, because note that the chargeback resulted in the PayPal account going negative and threats from PayPal to turn it over to collections.


One can overcome this problem by linking one's PayPal account to a dedicated debit (not credit!) card which is always empty. That's what I do.
Whenever I want to buy something on-line, whether directly or via PayPal, I first use my bank's home banking system, which is available 24/7 and works in real time, to transfer the precise transaction amount from my main account to that debit card, then make the on-line payment.

I opened a second account for this purpose meaning to do it, but the problem turned out to be that it takes 3-5 days for my bank to transfer money from my main account to the secondary account. That's useless unless I know well in advance I'm planning to buy something, and the approximate price.

[Steve Smith]

You start out by buying several small, inexpensive purchases. People are likely to trust you on that.

That would work. My Ebay rating is 213* and I haven't ever sold anything.

* That was a shock when I went to check it. I thought it was around 120!!


I opened a second account for this purpose meaning to do it, but the problem turned out to be that it takes 3-5 days for my bank to transfer money from my main account to the secondary account. That's useless unless I know well in advance I'm planning to buy something, and the approximate price.

That's a long time. My bank can transfer money instantly, or if I pay in cash, it's available on the account instantly. My wife can even transfer funds from one account to another on her i-phone instantly.


Steve.

[jonreid]

Buyers with minus feedback ratings can be blocked I think though.
Down here in Australia it isn't possible to leave negative feedback for a buyer no matter how much they dick you around. This, of course, makes the whole feedback system worthless with respect to the buying side.

Jon

[jonreid]

Sorry, Roger already mentioned that.
I'm bracing for my own hurt shortly.
A Leica lens failed to sell here, on APUG, and on the RFF so I reluctantly listed it on eBay. I believe my asking price was fair and set my Buy It Now price to what I had been asking on the forums and my starting price a bit lower.
It sold in about 10 minutes at the BIN price, so I assumed I could have priced it higher.
So I sent it off to Hong Kong and not long after receive a message from the buyer claiming it to be Significantly Not As Described.
He sent me pictures claiming the lens' coating to be damaged (covered in white spots).
Now, glass was not perfect but there was no fungus or scratches, perhaps some internal dust. He sent pictures showing the spots but they look weird. The black metal of the barrel and the white lettering look strange.
I'm worried he's done something to it.
So it's on it's way back to me, somewhat reluctantly but my 'options' once he'd opened a case were to issue a refund without requiring the item sent back, or to require the item back first.
PayPal has already put the funds somewhere out of the reach of both parties.
I've tried to determine what happens if I believe that he, or someone else, has damaged the lens since it left me. The best response sounds like a world of uncertainty and pain. Third party inspections and reports etc...
I'm dreading it coming back unsaleable...

Jon

[Vlad Soare]

I opened a second account for this purpose meaning to do it, but the problem turned out to be that it takes 3-5 days for my bank to transfer money from my main account to the secondary account. That's useless unless I know well in advance I'm planning to buy something, and the approximate price.
That's an awfully long time. :confused:
My bank transfers money instantly between my own accounts, on any day, at any hour, day or night. All I need is my digipass and an internet connection. :D

[Roger Cole]

Yeah, I really don't understand it. PayPal can damned sure get the money instantly FROM my bank. I can pay my credit card online from my bank as soon as the next day. Why the hell it takes 3-5 days to transfer money from one account to another within the same bank I have no idea at all. I'd give up and switch to a credit union or at least another bank, except that this one has branches in many local grocery stores, including one two miles from my house, that are open until 7 PM weekdays and 5 PM Saturdays. That's less important than it used to be, but they also recently changed their ATMs to supposedly read checks directly without using an envelope. I haven't been able to get a deposit to work properly in one of those yet. :(

[JMB]

I never use Pay Pal because of their attitude about resolving these kinds of problems and their otherwise predatory way of doing business.

[CP Goerz]

My mind must have been locked in a time warp, indeed a buyer can NEVER have a negative feedback the way the system is set up now. I often receive E mails from buyer asking me to trust them with payment at a later date as they have 100% feedback :-)



You can however block bidders who have had unpaid cases against them and that number can be quite a bit lower. I think I have mine set to two cases in six months or whatever the least is, it tends to cut out buyers who don't pay but certainly not the buyers who bid/pay then try to renegotiate a lower price which is a more common occurrence. All the negative feedback I've been given in recent years were from buyers who wanted a discounted price after they bought something and instead I asked for the item to be returned.

[EdSawyer]

No they won't. They can't do an ACH transfer without your approval. I've had twice that I as a seller got screwed by Paypal/buyers on this exact same problem. Both times, I took the money out of paypal into my account before shipping. Both times, Paypal could not get it - nor did they try. The most recent time was maybe 1.5 years ago.

Your bank or CC company will generally stand up for you against paypal in this regard. Sure, paypal will try to send your account to collections, but that's not too difficult to take care of - they have no judgement against you, just a claim (which is invalid anyway).

As a result of my paypal accounts going negative "permanently" due to the above screwjobs, I ended up having to start new paypal accounts 2 different times. and a new ebay account once.

Nonetheless, I don't bother selling on eprey anymore in general.

FWIW
-Ed


'The only possible way to avoid this is to ship only after you have transferred the money out of paypal into your own account (where they can't get it).'


That won't help. If you read the many fine print pages that are adhered to the 'consent' button you clicked to have a paypal account you'll see that they can ,and will, draw funds from your credit card or bank account to cover the chargeback.

[EdSawyer]

No, he didn't transfer the funds out, at least not initially. He had a 21 day (at least) hold on them. Even after that the transaction log does not show them getting transferred out. (though he did mention about the account going negative so somehow something must have transferred? hard to say from the log shown, exactly.)

And as I already explained, that does solve things to some extent (transferring it out.)



As others explained, that won't work and if you read the linked story the seller DID transfer the money out. They may have even linked to a debit card, because note that the chargeback resulted in the PayPal account going negative and threats from PayPal to turn it over to collections.

[Kuzano]

PAYPAL Can't tie up your funds if they cannot find them.....

OK, so you need a checking account to start a Paypal account. Do it... Do it this way and then.....

1) First, if you have a Bank account already linked to eBay/Paypal Unlink it... (you may not be able to do that until you put a new one on..to do that, do this)

2) Take some cash..$300 or a bit more.

3) Walk into a bank other than one you do business with already. (It's important that you deposit cash and NEVER EVER transfer any money into this new account from ANY OTHER bank. If you put anything in, always do cash. NEVER transfer any money out of this account to ANY OTHER bank. The purpose here ist to isolate this account from any other banking you do, business or otherwise)

4) get a debit card with this account, but NEVER use it in conjunction with any other banking you do. Only for cash withdrawals from the specific bank account you set up for Paypal.

5) Now link this new account with Paypal, OR use it to open your Paypal account.

6) If you use it on your Paypal account, which already has another bank account or card, you should now be able to take the original, or other account off Paypal, and/or eBay.

7) Keep the isolated account isolated... no transfers to or from any other account.

8) NEVER keep any money in PayPal.. EVER. Get the Paypal Debit card and do cash withdrawal, any where, including the new bank account, buy NEVER from any bank you use for personal or business banking.

9) After a short time, draw the new bank account down to a minimum balance..perhaps $100 and always keep it drawn down to the minimum.

NONE OF THIS CONSTITUTES FRAUD and meets the letter of banking, credit card and Paypal/eBay criteria

All these steps should prevent Paypal effectively from getting their hands on any of your money. Complete break from any of your routine or normal banking.

Does it work.... I've been doing this for about 5 years, and Paypal has never locked up any of my money. Neither have they bugged me at all about minimum limits or anything similar about the account they do know about.

It is Key that you don't use any normal bank account or card as a funding source for Paypal. Only the new or min balance account.

It is EASY to follow this course of action, but requires some close attention during transactions. I have never lost a dime on any eBay transaction that I did not personally negotiate in a direct contact with a buyer or seller. Never an eBay or Paypal complaint.

However, I have a couple of other protocols in place. Strict on feedback... tend toward over 100 (buyer or seller) and 99% positive. NO exceptions. Nobody has any thing that rare when it comes to eBay. I don't place bids outside those limits. I look at bidders on my sales and when sketchy feedback shows up, I remove the bids that violate my rules and contact the bidder (through the eBay contact system --NEVER direct) and inform them the bid was removed for feedback on them and they can contact me with explanation (no one ever does)

You don't have to deal with every person who knows how to push the buttons on eBay, and I don't. As far as newby, let the newbys build up feedback with each other. If they are persistent, they are committed and they will be the ones who make eBay work

I do mostly film camera's, I shutter at the maze of crap that consitutes digital cameras and electronics for the most part. I have 440 100% positive feedbacks. I sell all sorts of film camera's up to 4X5. I sell internationally because almost every 4X5 I've sold for the past 3-4 years have been purchased internationally. US buyer have been non performing, even on some excellent deals I have listed.

Sorry guys... but I am not about to give up on the benefits of eBay Paypal. Sometimes I have done workarounds on payments, but I take comfort in only one aspect of Paypal... They cannot get to my money.

Now regarding the other aspect of Paypal locking funds to sellers for up to 21 days, THAT IS ONLY related to your activity level. Get to and maintain the activity level to avoid the hold on funds and it will not happen to you. I have not had a funds hold for over two years, when my account activity was spread a little too thin. Now I am regarding eBay as a much bigger part of supplementing my normal income, and I keep the activity up. No other aspect of any sale influences the funds holds other than reaching and maintaining the activity level.

[Kuzano]

As others explained, that won't work and if you read the linked story the seller DID transfer the money out. They may have even linked to a debit card, because note that the chargeback resulted in the PayPal account going negative and threats from PayPal to turn it over to collections.

I opened a second account for this purpose meaning to do it, but the problem turned out to be that it takes 3-5 days for my bank to transfer money from my main account to the secondary account. That's useless unless I know well in advance I'm planning to buy something, and the approximate price.

On the first part of your post... I am not concerned about Paypal going negative on balance, and a threat to turn me over for collection. That takes time, and I do have the option to negotiate WITHOUT my funds locked. Their position is not as strong as mine in that case, and I have my money.

You answered your own second concern that I listed here. I get off my ASS and handle the money directly. Sometimes relying on sitting in my comfy chair and doing everything with my computer is way too comfortable and potentially costly. The bank where I opened my "Let's screw with Paypal" account is two blocks from my home

I repeat, you have to work outside the bank/credit card/online system on some of this to keep your comfort level up and increase your own security.

[Kuzano]

www.paypalsucks.com

A bit of time on the site will clear the air on many questions you may have.

[Roger Cole]

On the first part of your post... I am not concerned about Paypal going negative on balance, and a threat to turn me over for collection. That takes time, and I do have the option to negotiate WITHOUT my funds locked. Their position is not as strong as mine in that case, and I have my money.

You answered your own second concern that I listed here. I get off my ASS and handle the money directly. Sometimes relying on sitting in my comfy chair and doing everything with my computer is way too comfortable and potentially costly. The bank where I opened my "Let's screw with Paypal" account is two blocks from my home

I repeat, you have to work outside the bank/credit card/online system on some of this to keep your comfort level up and increase your own security.

You go ahead and do that, if you're that interested and motivated. And I understand you would be, given you sell a lot. Me, I long ago decided that I just wouldn't bother selling on eBay and buy only. As a buyer only the risks are quite minimal. Even so I don't buy anything too expensive there.

[Mike Anderson]

7) Keep the isolated account isolated... no transfers to or from any other account.


So if this isolation isn't maintained (say I just deposite a check from my regular bank account to the PayPal bank account) PayPal is going to somehow (directly or indirectly) get to the regular bank account?

[Roger Cole]

So if this isolation isn't maintained (say I just deposite a check from my regular bank account to the PayPal bank account) PayPal is going to somehow (directly or indirectly) get to the regular bank account?

I very much doubt they can. The whole thing strikes me as a lot of effort to accomplish nothing at all. I think a second account at the same bank and electronic transfers works just as well. I just wish my bank could do that instantly.

[Brian K]

This is why I won't sell anything on eBay. It's far too easy for a unscrupulous buyer to claim they never got the stuff you sent as in you sent an empty box or accidentally break it the first week and then claim it was received that way.

[Vlad Soare]

So if this isolation isn't maintained (say I just deposite a check from my regular bank account to the PayPal bank account) PayPal is going to somehow (directly or indirectly) get to the regular bank account?
I don't know if this is possible in the US (though I expect it not to be), but where I live it's definitely not. Simply having separate accounts in the same bank is more than enough to keep PayPal and everybody else away from my money. The only thing PayPal can do is try to charge the debit card that's linked to my PayPal account. If that fails, nothing short of a court order can give them access to any other bank account of mine.

[eddie]

I don't know if this is possible in the US (though I expect it not to be), but where I live it's definitely not. Simply having separate accounts in the same bank is more than enough to keep PayPal and everybody else away from my money. The only thing PayPal can do is try to charge the debit card that's linked to my PayPal account. If that fails, nothing short of a court order can give them access to any other bank account of mine.

Thats what i do. If i need i will close the paypal account so they cant hit me with insuficiant funds.

[Steven Tribe]

CPGoerz/Andrew/Zeiss Basher wrote:


All the negative feedback I've been given in recent years were from buyers who wanted a discounted price after they bought something and instead I asked for the item to be returned.

Ditto here. Fortunately, this isn't the worst kind of ebay situation. I can live with a less than 100% feedback for a year!

[rguinter]

I went through a very similar ordeal...I put the dispute resolution together nicely and I thought there was no possible way that Paypal would support the buyer, since it was so obvious he scamming. It didn't matter. They charged my paypal account back and everything, for a scammer. That's the last thing I ever sold on eBay. I only use Paypal if there is no other choice, and I don't accept it.

BetterSense:

Ditto here. Except I've gone a step further. I've never used paypal and will never consider using it for any reason. I've even stopped using professional vendors who've gone to paypal for their transactions.

BG

[alpenhause]

PayPal? Credit Cards? = Free Goods by means of a "Chargeback"

When I sell cameras that I build or from my collection I demand checks and money orders, this puts myself as the final say about claims and disputes and refunds not some stupid worthless Sh!thead that works for the credit card companies or PayPal.

Sometimes I do accept credit card payments but I make the buyer provide ID, proof of address and in some cases actually mail me a document waiving chargeback rights, I also make them sign up for a credit card processor that makes them join their service and compels them to validate everything form bank accounts, credit cards, and photo identification.

Should the potential customer fail to become signed up for the credit card processor and become fully vaidated? It is then quite obvious they want to rip you off by means of "Chargeback", "Not as Described" or "Not recieved"

Honest potential customers often will find a way to pay without using credit cards and that's that.

People in certain Aisian countries, we all know which ones, sternly insist on PayPal ONLY, The Honest Aisian buyers will be happy to use Western Union or Wire transfer.

I find it very amazing how people wanting to purchase using PayPal or credit cards do not ask many questions if at all about the item for sale but will communicate quite profusely and ask lots of questions if they are sending money by wire transfer or Western Union which is really good! This way both buyer and seller see eye to eye and the sale works out quite well with both parties quite pleased.

When people look at my own website Http://Alpenhause.com in the "Sales Details" page they can see my heavy handed attitude toward those that are lame, Certified Excuse Providers, PayPal and credit cards and how upfront I really am about people who would like to attempt a scam, one has to bear in mind that I am NOT out to insult the honest people but at the same time let the scammers know that I am severely scam resistant.

I have been harrased by people on this forum and others for not accepting PayPal when I offer up goods for sale, I would bet you a Nickle these Jack-Offs had plans to burn me for the money!

It never ceases to amaze me how many stupid people there are around that insist PayPal is safe and would not use anything else.

[Sevo]

People in certain Aisian countries, we all know which ones, sternly insist on PayPal ONLY, The Honest Aisian buyers will be happy to use Western Union or Wire transfer.


Western Union? Why should honest Asian buyers be happy to use the payment method of every dishonest sellers choice? Hereabouts, even the police warn against the use of Western Union to transfer money to any personally unknown receiver.



I have been harrased by people on this forum and others for not accepting PayPal when I offer up goods for sale, I would bet you a Nickle these Jack-Offs had plans to burn me for the money!

Well, maybe you have goods so desirable that people don't mind jumping though hoops while being abused. Most sellers are not in that position. And do not forget - a fraudulent buyer may feed his collecting hobby beyond his means, but unless he is into a fraudulent iphone purchase-and-resale trade, he can hardly make a living out of it. A fraudulent seller can make a fortune - last year they caught a gang operating a fraudulent ebay consumer electronics store, who are assumed to have netted 15 million € before they were caught.

[BrianShaw]

This is why I won't sell anything on eBay. It's far too easy for a unscrupulous buyer to claim they never got the stuff you sent as in you sent an empty box or accidentally break it the first week and then claim it was received that way.

That is not an exclusively ebay phenomenon... same thing happened to me selling to a "trusted forum member"... excpet he broke it the first day, fiddled with it, and kept insisting htat it must have broken in shipment.

[BrianShaw]

I have been harrased by people on this forum and others for not accepting PayPal when I offer up goods for sale, I would bet you a Nickle these Jack-Offs had plans to burn me for the money!

You lost. Please send me the nickel.

[Len Middleton]

You lost. Please send me the nickel.

By what means?

[BrianShaw]

This "jack off" couldn't care less how it is sent... as long as it is sent. :D

[alpenhause]

Not all that insist on paying with PayPal are out to rip us off, But why should I take the risk?

I would much rather have less sales than have to deal with the problems of PayPal and credit card sales.

It is totally disgusting that there are enough Scum Scammers and sociopaths out there abusing PayPal and credit cards such that these payment methods become very undesireable for some of us.

Yes, Payment methods other than PayPal and credit cards require effort and travel, Is getting out one's checkbook a lot of work? Going to the Post Office or the Bank too much work?

The folks that put out the time and effort for these payment methods never complain and are always quite pleased with the product, how do you mess with or find fault with that?

I do fondly remember when checks and money orders were used all the time on ebay coupled with honest representation of the product always seemed to work well, then came the "Thief" type sellers and it went to Hell and PayPal.

I sell on ETSY and Bonanza with extrememly little use of credit card transactions and it works well, these sites still allow checks and money orders at the seller's descretion not the ETSY or Bonanza demanding PayPal and PayPal like credit card acceptance like the ebay site dictates.

Ebay used to be very enjoyable for sales now it is a big hassle! I have been using alternate credit card processors like ProPay.com which a lot of buyers are not familliar with and often refuse to pay using ProPay.

ProPay gets the "Thumbs Up" for top notch customer service and is helpful to shut down transactions that have potential trouble or are obviously going to be trouble.

I have tried the other alternate acceptable by ebay like Skrill, MoneyBookers, PayMate, and they are just nothing but "Wait", "Wait", and longer waiting to get your funds from a sale with stupid lame customer service like PayPal, they seem a bit more secure but the waiting game to get paid is absolutely frustrating, I had an occaision where I shipped the item a bit too soon before the funds were deposited to my bank account and the card processor stopped the ACH transaction, lucky thing the buyer was honest, it still took half the day on the phone just to straighten this on out which is just a hassle I could do well without.

[welly]

I've been buying and selling on eBay and with PayPal (both eBay sales and sales elsewhere) since around 2002. With the exception of one minor incident with PayPal that may well have been my fault anyway, I've never been ripped off by PayPal, eBay or anyone using either service. This has included sales of some significant value.

It's really not difficult to stay clear of trouble. The signs of being ripped off are almost always there. You just have to be careful, suspicious of everything and there is no reason why you need to put yourself in a position of being scammed.

I always, always, always look at buyer feedback. If their buyer feedback looks suspicious (they've been buying up iPhones left, right and centre for example) then I'm going to be wary. I can afford to lose a $30 filter. Annoying that it'd be but it won't keep me up at night and so I'll be a little less suspicious of buyers of that kind of thing. But for anything of value, they can come and pick it up or buy it elsewhere.

[alpenhause]

People in Australia are a lot more honest and I think the Australian government is not keen on letting PayPal be a pain in the Arse like in the U.S.

Japan seems to keep PayPal honest and ethical as well.

I used PayMate for a while and they were fabulous! that was until.....they opened up a centre in California hiring the stupidest and most lame local employees that could be found, I find this "New" PayMate centre in California to be a total insult to the main centre in Sydney.

You do have an excellent point about just selling low cost items with PayPal and not risking it with high priced items.

[BrianShaw]

IDK about that. I was overcharged by a cab driver and later had my pocket picked (and pushed over) in Synde -- all in one day.

I've had similar experiences as Welly with PayPal but here in the US.

You seem to have had a real run of bad luck, Alpen... (forgive me, I forgot your real name).

[John NYC]

Have to admit I did not read all 46 follow ups... But the original post reminds me of why so much good stuff ends up on used retailer sites (like three-letter-acronym.com), and places like this forum where the buying and selling is, for the most part, honest -- in my own experience at least.

[Sevo]

Yes, Payment methods other than PayPal and credit cards require effort and travel, Is getting out one's checkbook a lot of work?


In most of Europe checks don't even exist any more, at any rate for individuals with neither a foreign bank account nor a merchant license.

[Jiri Vasina]

For us in Europe, PayPal is the easiest and cheapest way to send a payment. Every other way is either significantly more expensive, significantly more complicated or both. So for myself, I always ask for the possibility to pay with PayPal, not because I want to scam anyone, but because I'm practically out of transaction (possibility) otherwise.

It's difficult to balance the protection of buyer and seller. From what I read above, the buyer is more protected with PayPal. But if the protection is on the side of the seller, goods sold might not be exactly what was advertises - a scam on the part of seller... Two of my colleagues at work ordered goods (in-state, domestically) on separate occasions from different sellers, with cash-on-delivery payment. In each case, the box did not contain the goods ordered (in one case there were old junk computer parts for the package to have roughly correct weight), and in both cases it ended with police action and prosecution - only because there were several people ripped off. If there was only one/two victims, it would be word-against-word, possibly photo-against-photo...

[alpenhause]

I experienced a seller on ebay once and paid with PayPal who just plain stopped answering messages and did not ship goods.

It appears PayPal had put the seller's account on hold for some trivial reason, the seller just gave up and walked away! Just said the Hell with it!

Soon the negative feedback started coming in, lots of it real fast.

After a while the seller answered some of the feedback saying PayPal had "Limited" his account for an unknown reason and trying to resolve the problem was a dead end.

This scenario happens a lot with PayPal's heavy handed tactics, This is one way PayPal gets some of its revenue, kind of their version of getting back at the scammers that have caused PayPal losses.

When PayPal decides to limit someone's account it is very often difficult, expensive and time consuming to get your account back to normal, PayPal takes a gamble that the person won't do anything about it hence PayPal scores some free money!

No doubt that is what happened with that seller I mentioned earlier.

This trick is a normal activity of PayPal, don't believe me? Take a look at www.Screw-PayPal.com

[alpenhause]

For the folks in Europe, the banks almost always have American Express Traveler's Cheques in USD that can be mailed or FedEx, These are protected against loss.

Lots of European banks have USA banks as partners in the USA which means the European bank can arrange the partner bank in the USA to mail the seller a check in USD, This is not all that hard to accomplish, some European banks can issue this type of check on the spot for the buyer to send by mail or FedEx.

I often offer discounts to those that will take the time to arrange these types of payments.

Some European countries these payment methods are hugely expensive, I know which countries are likely to do this so I offer the acceptance of credit cards by means of "Membership" type credit card processors requiring photo identification and verification of address and bank account, in addition the card holder's billing address and shipping address must match, I won't ship to a friend's or relatives house.

When a buyer takes the time and puts forth the effort to become signed up and verified by the membership credit card processor one can pretty much count on the transaction being a good one, Yes, I know, PayPal has membership verification on some members, I just don't find it to be as good or really that much protection seeing PayPal's rotten reputation.

People that fail to get signed up and verified for the membership credit card processor and stop answering emails?

Well, we pretty much know what is going on don't we? The honest people will get in touch with you right away if they are experiencing difficulties in signing up.

Some people deliberately do not register a good address with their credit card issuer, this make "Chargebacks" a breeze!

[Shootar401]

File a police report, simple.