Goerz Dagor information needed please

[threebythree]

Hi all,

I am completely new to LF photography but have recently acquired a Goerz Dagor Series III f6.8 6.5" lens set in an Ica Dresden Compur Shutter. Serial number on both elements is 313368, which I think dates it to around 1914?

My questions are:

1. What camera can this be used on (sorry for the potentially very broad answers this may bring)

2. How do I clean it (there are no scratches, and very few spots)

3. If it turns out to be a good copy, what is it's value?

Many thanks for your help

[IanG]

It'll fit many cameras, any 5"x4", 9x12cm, Quarter plate, even a 7"x5" or half plate stopped down to f16, so it's very versatile.

I use optical cleaning fluid with care on lenses like this. My own 12" Dagor came with what was described as separation but in fact was just many years accumulated dirt around the edges of the elements and a good clean worked winders.

As to price it's best to check completed sales on Ebay, they are very variable. Location makes a difference as well.

Ian

[Steven Tribe]

Dagors were a enormous success and sold over 100,000 examples!
Most are given with the mm/cm focal length - so look for prices of 150mm series III or Dagor proper.
The front and rear cells should screw out quite easily - there are no internal air spaces.

[CCHarrison]

If you go to my page on Goerz lenses, you will see a catalogue page and information for this lens:

http://antiquecameras.net/1904goerzlensads.html

Dan

[E. von Hoegh]

Dagors were a enormous success and sold over 100,000 examples!
Most are given with the mm/cm focal length - so look for prices of 150mm series III or Dagor proper.
The front and rear cells should screw out quite easily - there are no internal air spaces.

If the OP's lens is marked in inches, and is genuine, it is Goerz New York production. They called the 6.5" a No. 1a, it was intended for Kodak and other folders as an upgrade.

[IanG]

If the shutter's original then it'll be a GGoerz lens made in Germany for sale in the UK/Empire or one of the former Colonies and sold fitted to an Ica camera. The Compur has a serila number as well which could be checked.

Ian

[threebythree]

If the OP's lens is marked in inches, and is genuine, it is Goerz New York production. They called the 6.5" a No. 1a, it was intended for Kodak and other folders as an upgrade.

Yep - it does have 1a on the barrel as well

[Leigh]

If the OP's lens is marked in inches, and is genuine, it is Goerz New York production.
Not necessarily true.

My 8¼" Gold Dot Dagor was made in Switzerland. Imprint is Goerz Optical Co. Inc., sn 20024xx.

The lens was the only lens in a Plaubel Profia complete kit, so I'm sure it's original.

- Leigh

[E. von Hoegh]

Not necessarily true.

My 8¼" Gold Dot Dagor was made in Switzerland. Imprint is Goerz Optical Co. Inc., sn 20024xx.

- Leigh

You're right, but with a serial # in the 300,000 range it's New York.

[E. von Hoegh]

If the shutter's original then it'll be a GGoerz lens made in Germany for sale in the UK/Empire or one of the former Colonies and sold fitted to an Ica camera. The Compur has a serila number as well which could be checked.

Ian

The genuine Goerz Berlin lenses were never marked in inches. The B&J remounts were.

[IanG]

The genuine Goerz Berlin lenses were never marked in inches. The B&J remounts were.

Goerz Double Anistigmatic lenses (later marked Dagor) Series III where sold with Inch markings in the UK and Empire before WWI, both Berlin made Goerz lenses and British Ross manufactured Goerz lenses (marked Ross-Goerz usually).

The Goerz Anschutz half plate cameras came with 8" f6,8 Berlin made Dagors, the 5x4's had 6" Berlin Dagors, the quarter palte 5". Looking at a CP Goerz Optical Works, 1-6 Holborn Circus, London, advert all their lenses were sold with Inch markings here in the UK.

The numbers 0, 1, 1a,2,3,4,5,6,7 & 7a are references to the focal lenght and common to all Goerz lenses in their adverts so that doesn't mean it was necessarily made in the US

0 - 5"
1 - 6"
1a - 6½"
2 - 7"
3 - 8¼"
4 - 9½"
5 - 10¾"
6 - 12"
7 -14"
7a - 16½"

There are 0000, 000, & 00 sizes as well.

So Genuine CP Goerz (Berlin) lenses were sold in Inch sizes, the Holborn Circus address was CP Goerz UK sales arm they never made lenses in the UK.

Ian

[IanG]

Ross-Goerz Dagors along with the rest of the Ross, Ross-Zeiss and Ross-Goerz range of lenses were also sold in Inch sizes in the US through their sole importer G. Gennert in the late 1890's and by various companies by the outbreak of WWI.

Ross and Kodak Ltd had very long and close links which included Kodak being the distributors for Ross lenses in Australia and New Zealand.

Ian

[E. von Hoegh]

I've seen or seen photos of the Ross-Goerz and Ross-Zeiss lenses, but had not known of the Berlin made lenses being sold in the UK with inch markings. I'm well aware of the series/serie and number markings, having both US and German lenses with those markings.

Every C.P. Goerz Berlin lens I have seen illustrated or handled (including those on the Anschutz and other cameras) had metric markings, first in MM then later in CM.

I assume the firms which imported the lenses had them marked in Imperial units?

[IanG]

I assume the firms which imported the lenses had them marked in Imperial units?

I don't think so, I would think the manufacturers did this at the factory. It's not just the lenses it's the shutters as well.

You find early Compur Shutters (Dial set) with T, B & I in the UK and I'd have thought the US as well whereas shutters in the German market have the more typical Z, D, M. I have one Compur marked with both. My oldest Compur made in 1913 and 165mm f6.3 Tessar (same year) has the T, B, I settings for the UK market.

Goerz may be the only German company to mark lenses for sale in the UK/Empire and former colonies in inches but then CP Goerz's sons had settled in the US so he had a greater understanding of International markets.

The irony is Goerz AM Optical made optics for the US military in WWI and CP Goerz the father's company was making optics for Germany and the Axis forces, and Ross took over the newly buils Zeiss (london), Mill Hill factory which made binoculars and was beginning to make camear lenses.

On another note there's a huge volume of German cameras and lenses being taken to the US by immagrants in the early part of the last centuary prior to WWII

Ian

[leighmarrin]

OP, apologies about straying from your original post. But I've got a question about a Dagor I own: it appears to be a pre-WwWI German Dagor in an Ilex Universal shutter. Markings are GOERZ DAGOR F6.8 SERIES III NO.2 7 IN. with a serial number in the 228000 range. Curiously, the shutter has a second scale of F-stop markings ranging from f16 to f90, in addition to the primary scale of f6.8 to f45. The Dagor was not intended to be a convertible, correct? So perhaps my lens has been remounted in an incorrect shutter?

Thus far I've not used it, but the glass is very clean.

Thanks from Leigh M. in Santa Barbara, Calif.

[Leigh]

I assume the firms which imported the lenses had them marked in Imperial units?
Bulk purchasers (importers, distributors, OEMs) can usually have whatever imprinting they might desire
placed on any product by the factory.

This is pretty universal in the manufacturing world, not restricted to photographic lenses.

- Leigh

[E. von Hoegh]

Bulk purchasers (importers, distributors, OEMs) can usually have whatever imprinting they might desire
placed on any product by the factory.

This is pretty universal in the manufacturing world, not restricted to photographic lenses.

- Leigh

Yes, I have a few "private label" pocket watches from the late 1800/early 1900s.

But, I've never seen a CPG Berlin Dagor marked in Imperial units, either in real life or illustration.

[E. von Hoegh]

OP, apologies about straying from your original post. But I've got a question about a Dagor I own: it appears to be a pre-WwWI German Dagor in an Ilex Universal shutter. Markings are GOERZ DAGOR F6.8 SERIES III NO.2 7 IN. with a serial number in the 228000 range. Curiously, the shutter has a second scale of F-stop markings ranging from f16 to f90, in addition to the primary scale of f6.8 to f45. The Dagor was not intended to be a convertible, correct? So perhaps my lens has been remounted in an incorrect shutter?

Thus far I've not used it, but the glass is very clean.

Thanks from Leigh M. in Santa Barbara, Calif.

See page 21. - http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/goerz_2.html

The second scale on the shutter sounds about right. But, the single cells aren't very good except for contacts.

[leighmarrin]

See page 21. - http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/goerz_2.html

The second scale on the shutter sounds about right. But, the single cells aren't very good except for contacts.

EVH, thanks for the reply. I should have checked CameraEccentric's page first. Wonder what the "Sector" shutter listed is? Is that a brand name or a generic type? Evidently it was priced the same as the Compound.

[IanG]

But, I've never seen a CPG Berlin Dagor marked in Imperial units, either in real life or illustration.

In the UK the Ross made Dagor's were more common, in the BJP Almanacs I have (pre WWI) they are sold with many cameras. Goerz (Berlin) lenses do turn up with inch markings here but after WWII Goerz had lost considerable ground to Zeiss and Goerz lenses were mainly being sold on their cameras.

I don't know how it worked in Germany but in the UK Ross were put in charge of military contracts for optics, in WWI & WWII. Goerz (Berlin) were weakend by WWI while Zeiss gained considerable dominance.

Ian

[E. von Hoegh]

EVH, thanks for the reply. I should have checked CameraEccentric's page first. Wonder what the "Sector" shutter listed is? Is that a brand name or a generic type? Evidently it was priced the same as the Compound.

The Sector shutter has a single set of blades for shutter and aperture, is pneumatically timed, and was if I remember correctly introduced in 1904. I have one with a 210mm lens, mine is very early based on the 2000-something serial number, and still works well. It was replaced by the Excell shutter, which I think was mechanically timed.