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catrionagray
4-Dec-2012, 13:13
Hello everyone!

I'm new to the forum and I recently acquired a Graflex Crown Graphic with a Linhof 150mm xenar lens.

I was just wondering how much you all compensate by according to your meter readings on this type of camera? And also, how much attention do you pay to bellows compensation factors? I'm testing it tomorrow but don't want to waste tooo much film you see...

Many thanks in advance!

Catriona

Kirk Gittings
4-Dec-2012, 13:20
I was just wondering how much you all compensate by according to your meter readings on this type of camera?

I'm not clear what you mean here. As opposed to what? As opposed to just guessing the exposure? Or guesstimating the exposure with something like the Sunny 16 rule? I rely on an accurate exposure meter.

E. von Hoegh
4-Dec-2012, 13:38
Hello everyone!

I'm new to the forum and I recently acquired a Graflex Crown Graphic with a Linhof 150mm xenar lens.

I was just wondering how much you all compensate by according to your meter readings on this type of camera? And also, how much attention do you pay to bellows compensation factors? I'm testing it tomorrow but don't want to waste tooo much film you see...

Many thanks in advance!

Catriona

Unless you are focussing on something closer than say three feet or so, just meter and transfer the settings with no compensation.

A camera is a camera is a camera, one meter works the same for all.

Ari
4-Dec-2012, 13:40
Welcome.
The type of camera you use has nothing to do with exposure; it depends on other things such as type of film used, intended processing and intended effect.
Bellows compensation is needed when you extend your bellows past the lens' focal length, in your case, over 150mm; but even then it won't be a factor until you get to 250mm or so extension.

Leigh
4-Dec-2012, 13:41
Hi Catriona, and welcome aboard.

In the general case you do need to compensate for bellows extension as the lens moves farther from the film.

However, in your case, the bellows isn't long enough to cause a major change in illumination at the film plane.

If you're taking close-ups (with the bellows extended as far as it will go) you might add a half stop.
For portraits you might add a quarter of a stop, but it really won't matter with most films.

- Leigh

Light Guru
4-Dec-2012, 14:15
Welcome.
The type of camera you use has nothing to do with exposure; it depends on other things such as type of film used, intended processing and intended effect.
Bellows compensation is needed when you extend your bellows past the lens' focal length, in your case, over 150mm; but even then it won't be a factor until you get to 250mm or so extension.

In addition to this you adjust your exposure for what filters you put on the lens and also for reciprocity.

catrionagray
4-Dec-2012, 14:25
Thanks so much everyone! I had just heard that you should always overexpose by a stop or so with large format cameras. Does anyone find that to be true?

I thought I'd shoot 3 sheets tomorrow. One bang on, one -1 and one +1. I guess then I'll get a feel for the camera.

E. von Hoegh
4-Dec-2012, 14:34
Thanks so much everyone! I had just heard that you should always overexpose by a stop or so with large format cameras. Does anyone find that to be true?

I thought I'd shoot 3 sheets tomorrow. One bang one, one -1 and one +1. I guess then I'll get a feel for the camera.

You may, after experimentation, find it useful to expose film at other than box speed, changing the development to suit.

Since you're a beginner, stick to rated speed and recommended developing times. Also, keep notes of all your exposures - it helps when things go in unintended directions. To start out, you want as few variables as possible.

If you want to experiment, by all means do so - but keep notes!

Welcome, by the way.

catrionagray
4-Dec-2012, 14:45
Yup, I am a big note-taker. Was a professional printer for years but just never ventured into large format before :)

Thanks!

E. von Hoegh
4-Dec-2012, 15:23
Yup, I am a big note-taker. Was a professional printer for years but just never ventured into large format before :)

Thanks!

Have you looked at the forum homepage? There's a clicker in the upper left corner of the screen, just under "What's New".

catrionagray
10-Dec-2012, 03:40
For those who are interested, I got a meter reading of 50/s with f11 and exposed 3 sheets of film f8/11/16. Turns out the Graflex does like being overexposed. F8 could even have done with a little bit more.

So, for reference, +1.5 stops works well. This confirms the advice I had received from people before regarding large format and generally needing to overexpose.

Leigh
10-Dec-2012, 07:19
For those who are interested, I got a meter reading of 50/s with f11 and exposed 3 sheets of film f8/11/16. Turns out the Graflex does like being overexposed. F8 could even have done with a little bit more.
So, for reference, +1.5 stops works well. This confirms the advice I had received from people before regarding large format and generally needing to overexpose.
The "advice" you're heard is not correct. Exposure has nothing to do with the type of camera you're using.

Exposure recommendations (i.e. "box" speed) are based on averages of many different scenes yielding negatives that meet certain defined characteristics.

If you prefer different results, you change the film speed to yield the negatives that you want.

This has nothing to do with the format. It's just as true for 35mm as it is for LF.

- Leigh

rdenney
10-Dec-2012, 07:55
For those who are interested, I got a meter reading of 50/s with f11 and exposed 3 sheets of film f8/11/16. Turns out the Graflex does like being overexposed. F8 could even have done with a little bit more.

So, for reference, +1.5 stops works well. This confirms the advice I had received from people before regarding large format and generally needing to overexpose.

Be careful about drawing the wrong conclusions from a specific effect.

What you see could mean a range of things. It could mean that the film you used, developed as you developed it, is slower than you thought. It could mean that the shutter on that lens is not correct. It could be a reflection of your metering technique (as in...where you point the meter and what is included in the metered scene, plus how you assign that metered value to the tones you intend in the final print.)

Generally, one does little harm overexposing any negative material by a stop. I have a Ukrainian (medium-format) camera that has a shutter that is about a stop too slow on most speeds. I shot at box speed and the pictures have more color saturation because the negatives have a bit more density as a result of being overexposed. It's quite easy to compensate for that effect during printing. It keeps shadow detail from being lost, too. But for portraits, that error results in ruddy skin tones. Overexposing transparency film, on the other hand, might cause highlights to become clear bits of film without texture.

How distant was the subject in your photo? What film were you using?

Rick "wary of misattributing cause and effect" Denney

wombat2go
10-Dec-2012, 08:05
Hi, Catriona
I am also learning to use the 4 by 5 Speed with the 6 by 9 roll film back with HP5+ and a Pentax 67 lens.
Exposing using an Olympus M43 in spot mode, measuring the bright spots. at f/16 or so and copying the indicated shutter speed for the rear shutter.
Develop with Microphen per the box.
The rear shutter is about 1/3 to 1/2 stop slow by phototransistor/oscilloscope eg 1/50:30 millisec, 1/125:11 millisec
It seems to work OK, per the histogram on this image in strong afternoon light (4MB .jpg)
https://www.box.com/s/98dvx2lwnbq07kjynkq1

Yes I keep a log book too.

E. von Hoegh
10-Dec-2012, 08:15
For those who are interested, I got a meter reading of 50/s with f11 and exposed 3 sheets of film f8/11/16. Turns out the Graflex does like being overexposed. F8 could even have done with a little bit more.

So, for reference, +1.5 stops works well. This confirms the advice I had received from people before regarding large format and generally needing to overexpose.

What Leigh and Rick said.

Which shutter are you using? Is it accurate? What meter are you using? Is it accurate? How are you metering?

What film? Developer? Development procedure?

That Graflex is an inert object. It doesn't "like" anything.;)

Whomever told you LF "likes" to be overexposed is very poorly informed and you should not listen to them for any other advice.

Jim Andrada
11-Dec-2012, 09:52
Hi Catriona and welcome to the forum

There are so many variables in the and they all have their tolerances - the film is probably the best controlled of them all but exposure is frequently off due to shutter variations, developing variations (temperature control, error in temperature measurement, agitation, specific developer characteristics,) metering, and photographers preferences. Oh yeah, bellows extension is one of them but at reasonable distances (and with a 150mm lens that means anything more than a few feet from the camera) it's probably the least significant.

I think it's more accurate to say that some large format photographers like to overexpose by a stop (to be sure to get more shadow detail, maybe) than to say that the large cameras like to be overexposed.

E. von Hoegh
11-Dec-2012, 10:50
"I think it's more accurate to say that some large format photographers like to overexpose by a stop (to be sure to get more shadow detail, maybe) than to say that the large cameras like to be overexposed".

Correct. I typically "overexpose" black and white film by 2/3 of a stop (in formats fron 35mm to 8x10) to ensure good shadow detail, reducing the development just a bit (depending on the brighness range of the scene) to prevent blocking the highlights. But this does not mean that the cameras I use the film in "like" to be overexposed. That just doesn't make any sense at all.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Terry Christian
11-Dec-2012, 11:17
Proper exposure is proper exposure. If the meter on a DSLR says that the correct exposure (and you agree) is ISO 100, 1/50 sec. at f/8, then theoretically that should also work for the same film, scene, and field of view on a 35mm camera, a medium format camera, or a large format camera. It shouldn't matter. If you decide to overexpose for various reasons, like E. von Hoegh pointed out, or make other creative adjustments, then you're certainly free to do so, but that has nothing to do with objectively correct exposure.

My point is that exposure doesn't change based solely on the camera format.

ic-racer
11-Dec-2012, 12:24
Proper exposure is proper exposure.

"Proper exposure" is a range of acceptable exposures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ic-racer/Simonds.jpg
J. L. Simonds, 1961

E. von Hoegh
11-Dec-2012, 12:29
The box speed of film is the minimum exposure under average conditions. "Proper exposure" will depend upon scene brightness range, as St. Ansel pointed out in the book "The Negative".

I don't know where the "large format needs more exposure" garbage came from, this isn't the first time I've heard/read it.

Terry Christian
11-Dec-2012, 12:32
True, ic-racer, but a narrow enough range that one can't be inattentive to it.

E. von Hoegh
11-Dec-2012, 12:36
"Proper exposure" is a range of acceptable exposures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ic-racer/Simonds.jpg
J. L. Simonds, 1961

Well, no it isn't. There will be an optimum exposure for any scene. If you are using the entire tonal range of the film, any deviation will result in a loss of detail in either highlights or shadows. Only very low contrast scenes will give you any wiggle room.

catrionagray
12-Dec-2012, 04:02
That Graflex is an inert object. It doesn't "like" anything.

I was speaking in a friendly, pleasant way...

I know the rules of exposure, I know how to meter properly and develop negs but any new (particularly new old) cameras need testing to see how that particular camera behaves. I am finding this camera needs (ie 'likes') to be overexposed. Be that because the shutter is out of sync or whatever, I am trying to reach conclusions about *this particular camera*.

BrianShaw
12-Dec-2012, 07:38
If you get the shutter overhauled your particular camera will likely need/like different (normal; uncompensated) exposure.

Dan Fromm
12-Dec-2012, 07:51
Catriona, I've read all of your posts in this thread. Something isn't right. You say you have a 150 Linhof Xenar. It is probably a 150 Xenar in a Linhof badged Compur shutter. These shutters typically run slow, i.e., overexpose, as they age and their lubricants thicken. They hardly ever run fast, i.e., underexpose.

The best way to find out what a shutter does is to measure its speeds with a shutter tester. Check all of the speeds, not just one, since speed errors often vary with the speed. On this point, I have a couple of ancient Compound shutters that, by test, run fast at low speeds and slow at high speeds. My Compurs, Copals, and Rapaxes are typically bang on or a little slow at slow speeds and slow at their higher speeds.

The second best way is with film, but with reversal film, not negative film as you used. This because negative film has such broad latitude that its hard to draw conclusions for <sarcasm> relatively </sarcasm> small errors such as you've found.

E. von Hoegh
12-Dec-2012, 08:02
Dan, the slowness of Compounds at the longer speeds is often due to the seals at either end of the cylinder leaking. I've made new seals out of blotting paper, two thicknesses soaked with beeswax.