PDA

View Full Version : Lens recommendations



macandal
29-Nov-2012, 09:49
I'm trying to put together a nice lens "library" for my Sinar F2. Currently, I only shoot 4x5, however, in the future (the distant future), I plan on shooting 8x10. I currently have a Schneider Symmar-S 180mm F/5.6 lens. I want to buy a 90mm and a 30mm lens. I want to get into portraiture, but there are other things I want to do. The three lenses I plan on having, I hope, will give me nice coverage to do a variety of things to try out and see what I really like (yes, I'm a beginner; I've only been doing this, in earnest, a couple of years). What do you guys recommend I get?

C. D. Keth
29-Nov-2012, 10:06
Are you interested in shooting architecture? That is important because architecture more or less requires large lenses with large coverage. If you don't have much interest there, the selections can be significantly cheaper while still being high quality.

rdenney
29-Nov-2012, 13:02
I'm trying to put together a nice lens "library" for my Sinar F2. Currently, I only shoot 4x5, however, in the future (the distant future), I plan on shooting 8x10. I currently have a Schneider Symmar-S 180mm F/5.6 lens. I want to buy a 90mm and a 30mm lens. I want to get into portraiture, but there are other things I want to do. The three lenses I plan on having, I hope, will give me nice coverage to do a variety of things to try out and see what I really like (yes, I'm a beginner; I've only been doing this, in earnest, a couple of years). What do you guys recommend I get?

In photography you've done in the past, what sorts of pictures did you make, what lenses did you use, and what was your usual format?

You could just buy one of everything, but that's not an efficient path to meeting your objectives.

Rick "hoping '30mm' is a typo" Denney

macandal
29-Nov-2012, 13:11
Are you interested in shooting architecture?Yes, I am, Christopher.

macandal
29-Nov-2012, 13:13
In photography you've done in the past, what sorts of pictures did you make, what lenses did you use, and what was your usual format?

You could just buy one of everything, but that's not an efficient path to meeting your objectives.

Rick "hoping '30mm' is a typo" DenneyRick, I've tried to do a bit of everything. Landscapes, architecture, abstract, etc. Portraiture is something I've always liked and I would say is my main interest at this very early stage in my LF history.

Oh, and yes, 30 is a typo. I meant 300mm.

Thanks.

macandal
29-Nov-2012, 15:22
... what lenses did you use, and what was your usual format?

Rick "hoping '30mm' is a typo" DenneySorry, Rick, forgot to address the whole question.

Basically, I started with a dSLR. Rebel xTI with an amazing Sigma 30mm/1.4. I did everything with that lens. Nature, landscape, portraiture, etc. It's what I had, so that's what I used.

rdenney
29-Nov-2012, 15:47
So, you already have that focal length covered effectively with the Symmar-S. Nothing wrong with a Symmar-S!

That lens, or another plasmat just like would also work fine at 300mm. And it would make a great normal lens for 8x10. But it will be a bit more expensive. It will behave more like a 55 or 60 on that Digital Rebel. There are lots of lenses at that focal length, because that's what is used as a normal lens on 8x10. If you want a more traditional rendering in the lens, but a lens still capable of very strong performance, another option is a Kodak Commercial Ektar in 12", or the Ilex copy, which is an Ilex-Caltar 12". Both are f/6.3 lenses that are very good tessar implementations. Both will come in an Ilex shutter which is a bit more old-school than a modern Compur or Copal. They are big and heavy like all the faster lenses of that length, but they are not as bulky as the plasmats like the Schneider Symmar and Rodenstock Sironar.

If you need small and light, there are process lenses which will have an f/9 maximum aperture. These are not for razor-thin depth of field, but stopped down the are extremely sharp.

Avoid telephoto designs, such as the 270mm Tele-whatevers. These will not have sufficient coverage for 8x10, and they tend not to be quite as sharp. They help for people who are bellows limited, which is certainly not the case with your Sinar F2.

For 90mm, which is about like an 18 on your DSLR, you'll need lots of coverage, especially for architecture work. Get something in the double-retrofocus design, which includes the Schneider Super Angulon, the Rodenstock Grandagon, the Fujinon SWD, and the Nikkor SW. They are all superb. The faster versions (f/5.6 or f/4.5) have wider coverage but cost more. The slower versions (f/8 or f/6.8) are not quite as bulky, but all these are bulky. Get something multicoated if you can find it, though these designs do quite well even when just single-coated. These lenses are made from a pair of retrofocus lenses (like the short lenses on an SLR) but one turned in opposition to the other with the shutter in the middle. The near-symmetrical design eliminates many aberrations and geometric distortion, and these lenses are without par for architectural work.

But none of the 90's will have enough coverage for 8x10, so that will be a 4x5 lens only. At 120mm, there are options in this design that can marginally cover 8x10, but that focal length is often not wide enough for architectural work in tight quarters. It's a great short lens for landscapes, however. My 121mm f/8 Super Angulon gets as much use as my 90/5.6 Super Angulon.

You can get excellent examples of the above for less than a grand for the pair in great condition, and with used lenses, condition is important, especially with respect to the shutters.

Rick "stick with the modern designs for now, with the Commercial Ektar being an allowed exception" Denney

r.e.
29-Nov-2012, 16:24
The tricky decision, if you are contemplating an 8x10 camera, is deciding on a 300mm lens. Have a look at the 300mm lenses on this chart: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF8x10in.html

Note in particular the maximum aperture, image circle size, filter size, weight and whether the lens is a Copal 1 or 3, the latter affecting the minimum shutter speed.

macandal
29-Nov-2012, 17:30
So, you already have that focal length covered effectively with the Symmar-S. Nothing wrong with a Symmar-S!

That lens, or another plasmat just like would also work fine at 300mm. And it would make a great normal lens for 8x10. But it will be a bit more expensive. It will behave more like a 55 or 60 on that Digital Rebel. There are lots of lenses at that focal length, because that's what is used as a normal lens on 8x10. If you want a more traditional rendering in the lens, but a lens still capable of very strong performance, another option is a Kodak Commercial Ektar in 12", or the Ilex copy, which is an Ilex-Caltar 12". Both are f/6.3 lenses that are very good tessar implementations. Both will come in an Ilex shutter which is a bit more old-school than a modern Compur or Copal. They are big and heavy like all the faster lenses of that length, but they are not as bulky as the plasmats like the Schneider Symmar and Rodenstock Sironar.

If you need small and light, there are process lenses which will have an f/9 maximum aperture. These are not for razor-thin depth of field, but stopped down the are extremely sharp.

Avoid telephoto designs, such as the 270mm Tele-whatevers. These will not have sufficient coverage for 8x10, and they tend not to be quite as sharp. They help for people who are bellows limited, which is certainly not the case with your Sinar F2.

For 90mm, which is about like an 18 on your DSLR, you'll need lots of coverage, especially for architecture work. Get something in the double-retrofocus design, which includes the Schneider Super Angulon, the Rodenstock Grandagon, the Fujinon SWD, and the Nikkor SW. They are all superb. The faster versions (f/5.6 or f/4.5) have wider coverage but cost more. The slower versions (f/8 or f/6.8) are not quite as bulky, but all these are bulky. Get something multicoated if you can find it, though these designs do quite well even when just single-coated. These lenses are made from a pair of retrofocus lenses (like the short lenses on an SLR) but one turned in opposition to the other with the shutter in the middle. The near-symmetrical design eliminates many aberrations and geometric distortion, and these lenses are without par for architectural work.

But none of the 90's will have enough coverage for 8x10, so that will be a 4x5 lens only. At 120mm, there are options in this design that can marginally cover 8x10, but that focal length is often not wide enough for architectural work in tight quarters. It's a great short lens for landscapes, however. My 121mm f/8 Super Angulon gets as much use as my 90/5.6 Super Angulon.

You can get excellent examples of the above for less than a grand for the pair in great condition, and with used lenses, condition is important, especially with respect to the shutters.

Rick "stick with the modern designs for now, with the Commercial Ektar being an allowed exception" DenneyRick, thanks. For a 90, I had that Fujinon SWD already in mind. Could you please clarify which 300 you recommend? I know you're making an exception and recommending an old lens, but which new one would you recommend? Thanks.

macandal
29-Nov-2012, 18:22
The tricky decision, if you are contemplating an 8x10 camera, is deciding on a 300mm lens. Have a look at the 300mm lenses on this chart: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF8x10in.htmlYes, there it is. There's that fujinon CM-W f/5.6-90. That's the one I had in mind.

Ok. Question about "copals". I can use any copal on my Sinar, right? As long as I have a board that fits it, right? Right now, my one and only lens (180mm Symmar-S) is on a copal 1 board.

jp
29-Nov-2012, 20:27
For 300mm, portrait use you can have some choices. The more versatile of the choices would be a Kodak 305 portrait, which is super crisp stopped down, fuzzy wide open, and gentle almost wide open. A kodak commercial ektar or nikkor-m 300/9 would be more conservative and sharp at more apertures and still have a pleasant bokeh.

On 8x10, the 305 portrait will work, but with some field curvature as it was intended for 5x7. A 300 symmar-S would also cover 8x10 well and be sharp.

For 90mm, I have only used a nikkor-sw 90/4.5. It's big, perhaps bigger than necessary. I mostly use a speed graphic so I don't get to experience the full coverage abilities of this lens. It bumps into the bellows inside the camera even with the speeds modest front standard rise.

rdenney
29-Nov-2012, 21:20
Rick, thanks. For a 90, I had that Fujinon SWD already in mind. Could you please clarify which 300 you recommend? I know you're making an exception and recommending an old lens, but which new one would you recommend? Thanks.

You have a camera that can handle a big, heavy lens, and you are not likely to be a backpacker looking for light weight with that camera. That makes you like me. I'd get a 300mm f/5.6 plasmat if the price was reasonable. Plasmats are air-spaced dagor designs, and include the Schneider Symmar, the Rodenstock Sironar, the Nikkor W, and--well I forget exactly which Fujinon.

KEH has a 300/5.6 Caltar II-S for $350 right now. It's a Rodenstock Sironar under the label, from the 70's or 80's. I'd be totally happy with that lens, for that price. They also have a 300/5.6 Sinaron-S and a Sironar-W, both of which are the same lens, but in Sinar DBM boards, if you happen to have an Auto Aperture Shutter for your Sinar. It drives the price down on the glass somewhat because it will only work on Sinars with the shutter.

(They also have several 90/5.6 Super Angulons and f/6.8 Rodenstock Grandagons, and the MC versions are in the $400's.)

Stay away from the Fujinon-T lenses. They are telephoto designs that will be fine for 4x5 but inadequate in coverage for 8x10.

But I'm not considering going to 8x10 and don't mind a vintage look. Plus, I'm cheap. I got a 12" Ilex-Caltar, which was Calumet's replacement for the 12" Commercial Ektar when Kodak stopped making them. Ilex designed it using computer optimization and it's a winner, like the Commercial Ektar. But it's a tessar design and therefore needs a smaller aperture, plus it won't have as much coverage. That's no issue for 4x5 but it will limit movements on 8x10 to a greater extent.

I am not into the tiny little process lenses, but then I use wheels to carry my stuff--motorized as often as possible.

Rick "who is not much concerned about brand among the big four" Denney

John Kasaian
29-Nov-2012, 22:15
A Kodak Commercial Ektar or Wollensak Velostigmat Series II might float your boat.

Ken Lee
30-Nov-2012, 05:54
Another factor to consider is filter size, if you use them. Among similar lenses of the same focal length some take substantially larger filters than others. For example, 300mm Schneider APO Symmar: 105mm filters. 300mm Nikkor M and Fujinon C: 52mm filters. (The difference in size and weight of those lenses is also considerable, but less important perhaps.)

Some of the vintage lenses make it hard to use a filter at all: they have no threads, take odd-ball sizes, or require slip-on filters that can be hard to find.

If your lenses take filters of similar size, you'll only need one set, and can adapt the smaller ones with step-up rings (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/index.php#stepup).

Some people choose their lenses to take the same filter size, or to reduce the selection as much as possible. Others get a filter "system" where all the filters are 4 inch gelatin squares, and are large enough to fit all lenses at once. There are issues associated with those systems, like convenience.

macandal
30-Nov-2012, 10:11
Another factor to consider is filter size, if you use them.Ken, no, I have never used filters. Perhaps in the future, but, as of now, no, I haven't.

r.e.
30-Nov-2012, 12:32
Yes, there it is. There's that fujinon CM-W f/5.6-90. That's the one I had in mind.

Ok. Question about "copals". I can use any copal on my Sinar, right? As long as I have a board that fits it, right? Right now, my one and only lens (180mm Symmar-S) is on a copal 1 board.

Yes, you can use any Copal shutter as long as you have/get a board with the right sized hole.

It looks like your bias is a wide aperture for compositional reasons and maybe greater coverage. The trade-offs are greater weight, a larger filter size and a slower maximum shutter speed (on a Copal 3 lens, 1/125 second).

rdenney
30-Nov-2012, 16:23
You can use a Sinar filter holder, too. It uses 105mm filters which are pricey, but no moreso than other strategies for using filters with all your lenses.

The 90mm lenses I mentioned will all be in a No. 0 shutter, either Copal or Compur.

The 300mm plasmats will use a No. 3 shutter. The Commercial Ektar will be in an Ilex No. 4 shutter, which is a bit smaller than a Copal/Compur No. 3.

That means you'll need a board with a 34mm hole (for the No. 0 shutter) and a board with a 65mm hole (for the No. 3 shutter). See this article:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shutters.html#modern

I'm agnostic on shutter brand--the Compur may have started slightly better but it may be older. My Copals just work, but some of the Compurs have needed additional servicing.

Rick "Toyota vs. Mercedes" Denney

macandal
1-Dec-2012, 19:02
Okay guys, a little more help please. I think I've decided to get the fujinons 90mm f/5.6-64 and 300mm f/5.6-90. So, what I need to know is how much to pay for them? I don't want to get ripped off, but I don't want to low-ball anyone either. I know condition has a lot to do with it, but if you could give me some ballpark figures I can get a better deal. Thanks.

rdenney
1-Dec-2012, 21:17
Okay guys, a little more help please. I think I've decided to get the fujinons 90mm f/5.6-64 and 300mm f/5.6-90. So, what I need to know is how much to pay for them? I don't want to get ripped off, but I don't want to low-ball anyone either. I know condition has a lot to do with it, but if you could give me some ballpark figures I can get a better deal. Thanks.

Modern 90mm wide-angle in the faster design usually sell for $300-600, and 300's somewhere in that range. It's a pretty big ballpark, and knowing it won't make much of a difference on the deal you get, unless you know a widow of a photographer who is selling his stuff and doesn't know what she has.

You'll have a harder time finding Fujinons just because they were never sold in the same quantities as Schneider and Rodenstock lenses, at least not in this country. There are generally several used examples of the German brands available at KEH.com, which is a reliable source. They have Fuji and Nikon lenses, too, just not as routinely. They have prices right on their web page.

Rick "brand agnostic, but all that owns six Super Angulons of various focal lengths" Denney

John Kasaian
1-Dec-2012, 21:36
I like keh's pricing. Heres a 90mm Fujinon---
http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-LF06009014674N?r=FE

macandal
2-Dec-2012, 12:00
Well guys I posted a WTB ad here on these forums.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?97445-WTB-Fuji-Fujinon-300mm-f-5-6-90

I only posted an ad for the 300mm lens because that's the lens I'll need first, but if you have the other fujinon, the 90mm f5.6-64, I'll consider it too.

Thanks.

macandal
4-Dec-2012, 11:06
How does coating damage affect lens function? Can this be "fixed"? If so, is it worth it? Is it expensive?

And while we're at it, how do other kinds of common problems in lenses (fungus, haze, dust, etc) affect quality/function? Same question, can these be fixed, is it worth it, is it expensive, etc?

I ask because, as someone mentioned before, fujinons 300mm f/5.6-90 are in short supply, and those that pop up, about 80% of those that surface, have some kind of problem (such as the ones I mentioned above).

Thanks.

rdenney
4-Dec-2012, 16:51
All a coating flaw does is reduce the effectiveness of the coating for that little bit of the transmitted light. But it takes a lot to make much difference. Scratches in the glass are more significant, but even those might have less effect than one would expect.

Lenses that are out of alignment and spacing can have a significant effect, though.

Rick "who has a couple of lenses with minor coating flaws" Denney

macandal
4-Dec-2012, 17:01
All a coating flaw does is reduce the effectiveness of the coating for that little bit of the transmitted light. But it takes a lot to make much difference. Scratches in the glass are more significant, but even those might have less effect than one would expect.

Lenses that are out of alignment and spacing can have a significant effect, though.

Rick "who has a couple of lenses with minor coating flaws" DenneyThanks Rick. Is it worth it getting the lens up to par if it has coating flaws or dust in the lens? How much does that cost? The reason I ask is because, like I said, most of what I find has some kind of kink. None appear to be 100%.

rdenney
4-Dec-2012, 23:56
Thanks Rick. Is it worth it getting the lens up to par if it has coating flaws or dust in the lens? How much does that cost? The reason I ask is because, like I said, most of what I find has some kind of kink. None appear to be 100%.

Cleaning out dust depends on how hard it is to open up the cells. But recoating requires significant equipment and effort, and a full disassembly. Few lenses of the coated era are rare and valuable enough to be worth recoating. Most of the time, a lens of the same type in better condition would be far cheaper.

A bit of dust has never had any effect on my pictures that I can tell. A smear of grease, or haze from being stored in a plastic case (which is easily cleaned off) does, and that is worth cleaning off.

For the focal lengths you are considering, however, lenses without such flaws should be pretty available in most places.

Rick "who avoids flawed lenses unless the price is exceptional, the wallet empty, and the lens needed urgently, because it's cheaper to buy unflawed than to repair flaws" Denney

macandal
5-Dec-2012, 00:03
For the focal lengths you are considering, however, lenses without such flaws should be pretty available in most places.Not at this moment.

Thanks Rick.