Fomapan films?

[ScottPhotoCo]

Hello all,

I was wandering around Freestyle Photo yesterday and decided to explore some new film options to supplement the Kodak and Ilford that I currently and using. Talking to one of the very friendly staff it was recommended to try the Fomapan 200 and process using Xtol for "velvety soft tones without loss of detail". So, I promptly picked up a box of 5x7.

Have any of you used Fomapan and what have you found to be the best process for you? I will be shooting primarily portraits and some landscape secondarily as well. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

[John Kasaian]

I hven't used Fomapan 200, but I like Fomapan 100 It's a good, capable slow film if reciprocity isn't invoved. Lots has already been written on Fomapan here, and with plenty of examples to drool over. Do a search!

[wallrat]

I love both. Their Arista.edu Ultra is the exact same film at half the price or less! I develop my 4x5 in PMK Pyro and stand develop my 35mm and 120 in Rodinal 1:100.

[welly]

I'm just starting with Fomapan 100. I've developed one or two sheets and found my developing methods produce very "thin" negatives. Something I'm going to need to work on a little. But what I've seen of other's work on that film I like so going to persist with it!

[wallrat]

Welly, try exposing at iso 80 and see what happens.

[Ed Bray]

I have also just started using Foma 200 in 8x10 and whilst I like the silky tones the reciprocity factor if huge and on one of my two exposures (typical that it would be this one) (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?29552-Flowers-Anyone&p=958828&viewfull=1#post958828) that it had some quite severe tram line scratches along it's length, I can only assume that these originated during manufacture but they were a right PITA to spot out in Photoshop, I suspect they would have been almost uncorrectable if the image had been analogue printed. So whilst I like the look of the image and the price, the jury is still out on the reciprocity and on the scratches.

[welly]

Welly, try exposing at iso 80 and see what happens.

I shall definitely do that!

[C. D. Keth]

I tried and liked the 200 speed shot at 100 iso and developed for 7 min @ 70F, constant agitation in pyrocat-hd 1:1:100. The only downer is the reciprocity is really a bear. To give you an idea, a measured 90 second exposure on delta 100 is 3.5 minutes. On Fomapan 200 it's almost 27 minutes!

[andreios]

I have also just started using Foma 200 in 8x10 and whilst I like the silky tones the reciprocity factor if huge and on one of my two exposures (typical that it would be this one) (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?29552-Flowers-Anyone&p=958828&viewfull=1#post958828) that it had some quite severe tram line scratches along it's length, I can only assume that these originated during manufacture but they were a right PITA to spot out in Photoshop, I suspect they would have been almost uncorrectable if the image had been analogue printed. So whilst I like the look of the image and the price, the jury is still out on the reciprocity and on the scratches.

I've found something that looks like a hair in the emulsion when I developed my fomapan negatives from last weekend. Also tiny dots-missing emulsion are not that rare as one would hope.

[Ed Bray]

I tried and liked the 200 speed shot at 100 iso and developed for 7 min, constant agitation in pyrocat-hd 1:1:100. The only downer is the reciprocity is really a bear. To give you an idea, a measured 90 second exposure on delta 100 is 3.5 minutes. On Fomapan 200 it's almost 27 minutes!

I used pyrocat HD at 1.2:1:100 for 7 minutes and rated the film at ISO125. And agreed the reciprocity is a beast.

[UlbabraB]

I use regularly Fomapan 100 from 35mm to 8x10, lesser format developed with Studional (1+31) and bigger ones with Pyrocat-MC (from 1+1+150 to 2+2+100). I rate it from 25 to 100 iso. In my experience it hates acid stop, even at half strenght (I experienced pinholes and spots), now I'm just using plain water.

When I started printing Pt/Pd and Kallitypes I found that it has a funky response to UV light: even using strong Pyrocat dilutions and long developing times it doesn't reach a suitable max density for some printing techniques. I never tried Fomapan 200, I'm curious if someone use it for alt printing which requires negatives with high DR (>= 1.8)

[IanG]

I've been using Fomapan 100 & 200 for about 5 years now in 120 & 5x4, I switched to it because I just couldn't get Kodak B&W films (in afew countries). I shoot both at half the box speeds with great results in Pyrocat HD. You need to do your own tests for reciprocity I found for my uses it was nowhere near as bad as Foma's own suggestions.

Ian

[Drew Wiley]

It's an unusual film but has a very long scale and will resolve shadows way deep down.
But the realistic film speed for me was about half the box speed, and as others has noted,
had horrible recip characteristics. I gave up on it due to the scratches parallel to the edges. That was on 8x10 film some time back.

[Cletus]

I thought Foma was going out of business? Or am I thinking of something else?

Also, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I've heard many many debates and theories about who the actual mfgrs of Arista EDU and A. Premium actually are. If I were keeping a tally, I'd think I've heard 35mm and other rollfilms are Tri-X (by a very large margin) and their sheet films are something else. Could be Foma or could be something else. Or could even be several mfgrs, depening on other factors.

My only conclusion is I don't think anyone really knows who really makes the Arista films. ....unless I'm just way behind the curve here...

[Jiri Vasina]

I'm just starting with Fomapan 100. I've developed one or two sheets and found my developing methods produce very "thin" negatives. Something I'm going to need to work on a little. But what I've seen of other's work on that film I like so going to persist with it!

I use Fomapan 100 as my main film (have a look at my website (http://www.vasina.net/) or here at Fomapan 100 results (http://www.vasina.net/?tag=fomapan-100) if you are interested). I expose the film at EI 64. Much better that way. There are even some who expose it at EI 50 (if I'm not mistaken, Nana Sous Dias does so).

Edit:
Fomapan 200 should also be exposed a bit more. I have shot only a few rolls, but have always exposed it at EI 125, and got good results.

I develop all my films in Rodinal, Fomapan 100 shot @ EI 64 I develop for 10:00min in Rodinal 1:50 with continuous agitation. Foma 200 @ EI 125 is 18:00min acording to my notes.

Jiri

[Jiri Vasina]

I thought Foma was going out of business? Or am I thinking of something else?

Also, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I've heard many many debates and theories about who the actual mfgrs of Arista EDU and A. Premium actually are. If I were keeping a tally, I'd think I've heard 35mm and other rollfilms are Tri-X (by a very large margin) and their sheet films are something else. Could be Foma or could be something else. Or could even be several mfgrs, depening on other factors.

My only conclusion is I don't think anyone really knows who really makes the Arista films. ....unless I'm just way behind the curve here...

I haven't heard anything about Foma going out of business. They have even expanded their portfolio - some time ago, they did not manufacture Foma 200 in sheets reguralry, also they seem to offer Foma 400 in sheets which is new. So I would think they are doing rather well...

As of rebadging films, Arista.EDU was manufactured by Forte, a Hungarian firm. That one is out of business for several years. Arista.Edu Ultra on the other hand is made by Foma.

[Pete Watkins]

I've recently been contacted by Fomapen in Norway to let me know that fresh stocks are on the way.
200 iso at box speed 2x2 minutes ionised water pre wash, D-76H, water stop bath and a neutral or alkali fixer, 30 minutes wash and a quick rinse in de-ionised water before hanging on my little "clothes line" in the darkroom with a fan heater one end and an extractor fan at the other end.
Gods gift!!
This is not a post about religion, honest!!
Me name ain't Frank.
Pete.

[IanG]

On my travels in South America 3 or 4 years ago I was suprised to find Kodak B&W films almost impossible to buy but Ilford & Foma where everywhere. I've found it's the same in Turkey. Foma have made a huge effort to get their products into the global market place over the past few years, at one time you rarely came across them.

Part of Kodak's problem is with no B&W papers it's less economic just selling film to specialist shops for their distributors, instead they seem to concentrate on the consumer colour market which are mostly minilabs whoi have no interest in B&W films.

Ian

[Drew Wiley]

Cletus - you are behind the curve! I thought that debate was nonexistent by now. Arista
200 Foma 200 the same. Was also sold as Classic 200 at one time. It's Forte who's out of
business - and there went a much better 200 film with it!

[Kirk Gittings]

Why ionized water?


I've recently been contacted by Fomapen in Norway to let me know that fresh stocks are on the way.
200 iso at box speed 2x2 minutes ionised water pre wash, D-76H, water stop bath and a neutral or alkali fixer, 30 minutes wash and a quick rinse in de-ionised water before hanging on my little "clothes line" in the darkroom with a fan heater one end and an extractor fan at the other end.
Gods gift!!
This is not a post about religion, honest!!
Me name ain't Frank.
Pete.

[Roger Cole]

Cletus - you are behind the curve! I thought that debate was nonexistent by now. Arista
200 Foma 200 the same. Was also sold as Classic 200 at one time. It's Forte who's out of
business - and there went a much better 200 film with it!

And Fotokimeka, maker of Efke film, recently went out of business or is in the process of doing so. Foma, AFAIK, is fine.

And it's easy to tell which Arista Freestyle film is which. From the identical instructions to the behavior in Diafine, the Arista "Premium" ISO 400 35mm is Tri-X, and the now gone 100 was Plus-X (I still have some of that in the fridge and buy up 10 rolls or so of the Tri-X every time I put an order in to Freestyle.) Likewise, from the identical development instructions to the no-other-film green color of the dyes that wash out in the pre-soak or developer to the film base of the 120 (formerly blue-ish, now more clear) to the green color of the sheet film if you just sacrifice an undeveloped sheet and look at it in room light, the Arista EDU Ultra is Foma.

I like to play with the Foma films, but I wouldn't use them for anything vital. I too have seen some spots that look like pinholes (in sheets - so far no problems in the few rolls of 120 I've shot) but suspect this may be from my habit of using acid stop bath. That's not really necessary with any film and with few developers, so I think I will switch to just water for all my black and white films and see if that eliminates the problem. It could easily be a tender emulsion that doesn't take kindly to acid rather than actual flaws.

[Drew Wiley]

I just thawed out a box of 8X10 Arista 125 which is precisely FP4 plus. Stockpiled it way
back when Ilford itself was in trouble. Not sure who made their earlier 400, but certainly
wasn't Ilford - and I didn't much care for it. Don't know about the zits on the Foma 200 product - only got them once; but the edge scratches affected about half the sheets. I
assumed it was due to cutting or packaging equip, but might have actually been stress
cracks, or at least one rumor leads that way. Hope they fix it, because this film does have
some interesting characteristics, and with the sheets that did come out unflawed, I got
some very fine prints.

[Roger Cole]

Freestyle has marketed film and paper made by many different companies over the years, but they always change the "complete" name of it. Thus Arista Premium is Kodak, "EDU Ultra" is Foma (in film anyway, not sure about the paper but I think it is as well) and the "Legacy Pro" stuff was, I believe, Fuji. I remember when they marketed Ilford too, but Harman no longer does those deals and sells only under their own names Ilford and Harman.

You can also often tell because they list the country of origin. At one time the print catalog listed the EDU Ultra as "made in the Czech Republic" though I think they've since changed that to EU or similar. No matter, it used to be listed as Czech and has identical published development instructions as Foma, looks green like Foma, contains green dye that washes out in pre-soak like Foma...

The Freestyle Arista "Private Reserve" RC paper is Adox MCP, clear from both the catalog marketing and from using it, and a very good paper for RC. (I prefer MGIV RC in RC paper because the tone is cooler and cools further in selenium, but that's just taste, not a knock on the quality of the paper which I've tried and did find to be quite nice.) I wish they'd market a "Private Reserve" FB version of the MCC 110 at lower prices. :D

[Domingo A. Siliceo]

Welly, try exposing at iso 80 and see what happens.

I even expose at ISO 25 and develop with Beutler developer. To my taste, negatives look great and are easy to print.

[Pete Watkins]

Kirk,
The water around here is pretty hard (great for home brewing) and de-ionised is cheaper than distilled. I must have read the recomendation somewhere (probably on the Forum years ago). This has worked for me for some years now and I can't see the point in changing my method.
It does need to be mentioned that the emulsion is delicate when it's wet and extreme care needs to be taken. I use Patterson Orbitals and have the emulsion side facing upwards and I have no problems.
Pete.

[IanG]

These Fomapan films are far more sensitive to slight changes in development times/temperatures, type of developer etc and what would be a slight change with other films is exaggerated with these.

This is why you see quite an unusually wide variation in how people handle and use them. Domingo is one of many using the 100 EI film at 25 EI and I've heard of similar down rating of Fomapan 200. The important part with these films is to do your own testing becauseonce you've found your personal EI & dev time they are extremely capable films.

Ian

[Roger Cole]

Kirk,
The water around here is pretty hard (great for home brewing) and de-ionised is cheaper than distilled. I must have read the recomendation somewhere (probably on the Forum years ago). This has worked for me for some years now and I can't see the point in changing my method.
It does need to be mentioned that the emulsion is delicate when it's wet and extreme care needs to be taken. I use Patterson Orbitals and have the emulsion side facing upwards and I have no problems.
Pete.

I seem to recall a thread on APUG about the cost of distilled water in the UK. Here, I wouldn't even know where to find de-ionized water, but I can buy all the distilled water I want for $0.69-$0.79 a gallon in any grocery store. My wife uses it to change out (about 1/3 at a time) the water in her aquariums periodically, and I use it for mixing developers.

So it might sound to US readers as if you chose de-ionized over distilled for some special reason, since de-ionized is not readily available here (at least, where I am) while distilled is easy to find and cheap. I understand it's the other way round in some places.

[Rick A]

I rate Foma films at half box speed and develope in Pyro (formerly P-cat-HD, now PMK Pyro) as I feel the emulsion is soft and needs to be hardened. I use water rinse between dev and fix, as acid stop bath causes pinholes(even at half strength), and either Formulary TF-4 or Eco-Pro neutral fixer. I have both the Foma branded(35mm bulk+4x5) and Arista EDU-ultra(4x5) branded films and they are one in the same, only difference is price.

[IanG]

In the UK some so called Distilled water sold is often De-ionised water anyway but for photographic purposes it's just as good.

The cost of distilled water is very depenant on energy costs in a country that affects the cost of the distillation and the transport but gets exaggerated by the mark-ups etc. When I'm in Turkey the cost of drinking water is about the same as distilled water in the US, so there are large regional differances around the world.

Ian

[gliderbee]

I use the water condensed in the drying machine (I don't know the correct word in english). I sometimes filter it through paper coffee filters, Seems to work fine. Normal tapwater over here is very hard and gives lots of drying marks on film.

Bad idea?

Stefan

[John Kasaian]

Arista.edu Ultra, along with x-ray film have become my WTSHTF emulsions. I've got a healthy stack of both in the freezer "just in case" my usual sheet films become scarce. I figure it will buy me time until I can start making glass plates for my plate holders.

[IanG]

I use the water condensed in the drying machine (I don't know the correct word in english). I sometimes filter it through paper coffee filters, Seems to work fine. Normal tapwater over here is very hard and gives lots of drying marks on film.

Bad idea?

Stefan

Very bad idea as it'll be full of bacteria and fungal spores so the last thing you want for a final rinse.

Ian

[gliderbee]

Oops, really? I thought condensed water is the same as distilled water? Why would there be fungus in it? After all the washing and rinsing? Is there a way a can check this myself?

Thanks,
Stefan

[Per Madsen]

I use the water condensed in the drying machine (I don't know the correct word in english). I sometimes filter it through paper coffee filters, Seems to work fine. Normal tapwater over here is very hard and gives lots of drying marks on film.

Bad idea?

Stefan

I do the same with water from the tumble dryer and filter always through coffee filters. I use one 5 liter bottle for filtered water and one 5 liter bottle for unfiltered water. It works perfectly.

The price for demineralized water in Denmark is 50 DKR (6,50 EUR/8 USD).

Per

[gliderbee]

I do the same with water from the tumble dryer and filter always through coffee filters. I use one 5 liter bottle for filtered water and one 5 liter bottle for unfiltered water. It works perfectly.

The price for demineralized water in Denmark is 50 DKR (6,50 EUR/8 USD).

Per

"tumble dryer", right, thanks :-)!

Stefan

[wallrat]

I haven't had any problems with pinholes and aside from Efke, I shoot Arista.EDU Ultra exclusively in 4x5. I rate it anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4 the rated speed and adjust development accordingly. Until my recent change to tray development, the past few years of developing this film was done using Combi Plan tank with either PMK Pyro at normal strength at various times. If I want a longer range of tones, I stand develop them in Rodinal mixed 1:125 for 1 hour to 1 hour 20 minutes. I agitate the stand developer constantly for 30 seconds, then 1 agitation every 15 to 30 mins depending on how I rated the film. I have been more than happy with the results. I always expose 2 identical negatives on any critical shots so I have a second chance. So far, the second negatives have only been used for my mistakes, not the film. Hopefully this gives you guys some guidance or ideas to try. I use kodak indicating stop diluted twice the recommended dilution for 45 seconds and while I used to use PF's TF-4 I know use the Eco Pro fixer with superb results.

[IanG]

Oops, really? I thought condensed water is the same as distilled water? Why would there be fungus in it? After all the washing and rinsing? Is there a way a can check this myself?

Thanks,
Stefan

It isn't boiled though like distilled water and the tubes it come out from aren't sterile, there's threads about using similar condensate from air conditioning units on various websites. Aftere a unit is used there's water left in the pipes and little airflow, ideal for all sorts of issues with bacteria, fungul molds even algae.

It's your choice to take unecessary risks with your negatives and prints.

Ian

[Drew Wiley]

Gosh ... why not just use the hooch still in the backyard beside the pigsty for distilling
your rinse water, and save all that dryer lint for venting straight into the darkroom.

[John Kasaian]

We've got hard water where I live. Distilled water is cheap---it costs about the same as filtered water---about $0.89 to $1.19/gal. depending where I buy it. Whichever happens to be cheaper works just fine for me.

[ScottPhotoCo]

Wow! Lot's of info in this this thread. Thank you all! I am awaiting my Fomapan to arrive as I shipped it to myself from SoCal as I didn't want the hassle of hand inspection through the airport. :)

Would anyone be willing to share some examples of images made and processing erm, process for comparison here?

Thanks again!

[Roger Cole]

I'm wondering about these people who get water out of a dryer at all. There must be very different dryer designs in other places. I've never seen a dryer that expelled water.

[Per Madsen]

I'm wondering about these people who get water out of a dryer at all. There must be very different dryer designs in other places. I've never seen a dryer that expelled water.

I Denmark there are two types of tumbler dryers: Condensing and venting.

A venting tumbler dryer expels humid air, which is then sent outside through a ventilation hose.

http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/our-products/washers-and-dryers/tumble-dryers/tumble-dryers-range/WTV74309GB.html?source=browse

A condensing tumbler dryer condensates the humidity from the humid air inside the dryer in a container. This is often combined with heat recovery and other electricity usage reductions.

http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/our-products/washers-and-dryers/tumble-dryers/tumble-dryers-range/WTW84160GB.html?source=browse

[C. D. Keth]

That's pretty cool, Per. They don't sell those in the US, or at least they aren't at all common. :(

[John Kasaian]

I Denmark there are two types of tumbler dryers: Condensing and venting.

A venting tumbler dryer expels humid air, which is then sent outside through a ventilation hose.

http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/our-products/washers-and-dryers/tumble-dryers/tumble-dryers-range/WTV74309GB.html?source=browse

A condensing tumbler dryer condensates the humidity from the humid air inside the dryer in a container. This is often combined with heat recovery and other electricity usage reductions.

http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/our-products/washers-and-dryers/tumble-dryers/tumble-dryers-range/WTW84160GB.html?source=browse
But can it distill whisky?

[Jiri Vasina]

Wow! Lot's of info in this this thread. Thank you all! I am awaiting my Fomapan to arrive as I shipped it to myself from SoCal as I didn't want the hassle of hand inspection through the airport. :)

Would anyone be willing to share some examples of images made and processing erm, process for comparison here?

Thanks again!

Tim, at this link (http://www.vasina.net/?tag=fomapan-100) you can find images shot on Fomapan 100 @ EI 64 and developed in Rodinal 1:50 at 20°C. The time is 10:00 min for N development, 8:00min for N-1 development. I develop on Unicolor motor base, so that makes continuous agitation. Images processed in this way scan well...

Jiri

[Roger Cole]

I Denmark there are two types of tumbler dryers: Condensing and venting.

A venting tumbler dryer expels humid air, which is then sent outside through a ventilation hose.

http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/our-products/washers-and-dryers/tumble-dryers/tumble-dryers-range/WTV74309GB.html?source=browse

A condensing tumbler dryer condensates the humidity from the humid air inside the dryer in a container. This is often combined with heat recovery and other electricity usage reductions.

http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/our-products/washers-and-dryers/tumble-dryers/tumble-dryers-range/WTW84160GB.html?source=browse


That's pretty cool, Per. They don't sell those in the US, or at least they aren't at all common. :(

As far as I'm aware they don't either. Every one I've ever owned or seen just vents. When I bought my house the dryer hookup (and rest of the house) had been vacant a while and I had to clean a bird's nest out of it.

[ScottPhotoCo]

Tim, at this link (http://www.vasina.net/?tag=fomapan-100) you can find images shot on Fomapan 100 @ EI 64 and developed in Rodinal 1:50 at 20°C. The time is 10:00 min for N development, 8:00min for N-1 development. I develop on Unicolor motor base, so that makes continuous agitation. Images processed in this way scan well...

Jiri

Thank you Jiri!

Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

[Pavel+]

Jiri ..... Krasný fotki!

[Jiri Vasina]

Jiri ..... Krasný fotki!

;) Thanks a lot, Pavel

Jiri