New Chamonix in 3 months-ish

[wallrat]

So I don't have much info as Hugo can't divulge too much, but the new camera is yet to be named. It *may* be a N-3? The one thing I do know is it will be yaw free and the N-2 can not be upgraded as there are too many differences. He said the time frame for the new model is roughly 3 months out. I know it's not much info, but I felt you guys would be interested to know.

Have a great week,

-Bill

[wallrat]

Btw, man, Hugo is such a nice guy. He's very prompt and professional. It's very refreshing to work with, especially after following the Deardorff horror thread!

[Jim Galli]

As Curmudgeony as I must seem with my Packard shutters and my drawers full of antique portrait lenses . . . I absolutely love my 4X5 Chamonix. Someday I'll spread out the 4X5 kit with Cham and maybe do a thread. It's quite ecclectic.

[Freezer]

And I just ordered my first LF camera, the n-2!

[wallrat]

Freezer, i'm ordering an N-2 soon as well. The time frame for the new one isn't certain yet and I know the resale is good enough that if yaw-free is that big of a deal to me at that point I'll just sell for the bit of a loss. Jim, I'm with you. I like my tachihara but my still life macro work with 210's is maxing the bellows and I need more! I love the 450 of the N-2 with the extension!

[C. D. Keth]

As Curmudgeony as I must seem with my Packard shutters and my drawers full of antique portrait lenses . . . I absolutely love my 4X5 Chamonix. Someday I'll spread out the 4X5 kit with Cham and maybe do a thread. It's quite ecclectic.

I'm generally not too interested in the "what I carry" posts but I actually am curious what you carry for 4x5.

[Preston]

"The one thing I do know is it will be yaw free..."

Please indulge my ignorance, but what does 'yaw free' mean?

I own the N-2, and love it. I'll stick with it for a good while.

--P

[Kuzano]

Please indulge my ignorance, but what does 'yaw free' mean?

I own the N-2, and love it. I'll stick with it for a good while.

--P

Being a veteran of the "forum wars" (that's the VFW), and the misinterpretation of genre and venue specific language, I would take it to mean that Chamonix has added parts that produce "YAW" at no extra charge. Hence "Yaw free". Can't come up with any other appropriate answer.

Years ago, I worked for a finance company. If we gave you a loan and used your furniture as collateral, and if you did not pay on the loan, we would call you and threaten to come out and "Pick up your Sticks". People never really knew what we were saying, until we came out with a big truck and 3 "gorillas" to drag your furniture out of the house.

Industry lanquage begets confusion. Perhaps one day someone will explain YAW for you as it pertains to Large Format cameras. Otherwise, it sounds to me like you just get the addition of YAW for no additional cost.

Now if the OP were from the deep south, or Texas, and the post indicated Chamonix were providing Y'all free in the new model, my suspicion would be that they had decided to become very philanthropic and start giving the cameras out free to Y'all.

[Hugo Zhang]

Please indulge my ignorance, but what does 'yaw free' mean?

I own the N-2, and love it. I'll stick with it for a good while.

--P

Preton,

I don't know, though my first 45 camera was an Arca_Swiss and advertised as a Yaw free. I am feeble-minded at these technical terms even after many readings.

Maybe this page will explain?

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/yaw.html

[Mike Anderson]

Please indulge my ignorance, but what does 'yaw free' mean?


It means it's not boring.

[fecaleagle]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/yaw.html

Edit: Oops, missed Hugo's post above. Sorry about that!

[Jonathan Barlow]

I have an old Sinar document that explains "The advantages of the yaw-free view camera" available here:

http://www.jonathanbarlow.com/sinar-yaw-free-info-22.pdf

[welly]

It means it's not boring.

Surely that's "snore free" not "yaw free"?

[BradS]

Yawn.

[chuck94022]

If you're doing landscapes or portraits with your Chamonix 045N-2, I don't think you'll be disappointed to be missing out on the yaw-free feature of the 045N-3. If you use a field camera to do table-top product photography (not sure why you would, unless you prefer to have one tool for all your needs), this will be a welcome addition to the feature set.

I have no inside knowledge, but am a very satisfied 045N-2 user. My guess is that this feature will change the front and rear standard designs, and probably add weight. But I don't know if that is true. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

Personally, if I was focused on product photography, I'd probably be using a Sinar or similar. Hiking doesn't seem to be a big part of that specialty. As it is, my needs for movements are modest, and I've never had to twist my camera into a pretzel in the field.

[Kodachrome25]

Interesting, I look forward to seeing what it turns out to be. For what it is worth, I think the 45N-2 is best camera I have ever used in any format, just fantastic!

[Sal Santamaura]

Yawn.Thank you so much for that extraordinarily valuable contribution. The archive will be so much better because of it.

[Preston]

From LF Info page that Hugo found for us:

"Yaw occurs, when the swing axes are not vertical"

(More complicated: "Yaw occurs, when the swing axes cannot be adjusted
parallel to those lines of the subject, which should appear parallel on
the film". This includes above definition.) "P.Groepper"

It will be interesting to see how Chamonix deals with the yaw issue.

Since I'm from Texas...'Yaw free to read the other explanations on that page' ;-)

Thanks for the link, Hugo!

--P

[dave_whatever]

Hang on, aren't the swing axes on a chamonix already vertical? Regardless of what you do with rise or tilt on the front standard for example, the swing axis is still vertical through that screw in the base..... isn't it? I'm confused.

[Preston]

Hang on, aren't the swing axes on a chamonix already vertical? Regardless of what you do with rise or tilt on the front standard for example, the swing axis is still vertical through that screw in the base..... isn't it? I'm confused.

Yes, if the lens isn't tilted. However, if I understand correctly, the swing axis is off-vertical when the lens is tilted. Or...am I confused?

--P

[dave_whatever]

Well its axis tilt, so the lensboard carrier tilts, but the uprights of the front standard remain vertical.... So swings are always on a vertical axis?.....someone help me out here....

[Mike Anderson]

Well its axis tilt, so the lensboard carrier tilts, but the uprights of the front standard remain vertical.... So swings are always on a vertical axis?.....someone help me out here....

Boy, I bet Frank P. would know this. ;)
Seriously, I think this (posted earlier in this thread) explains it well enough:
http://www.jonathanbarlow.com/sinar-yaw-free-info-22.pdf
Let me see if I can put this into words (someone correct me if I'm wrong here):

In a yaw-free camera, the plane of the lens stays parallel to the front standards, so if the front and rear standards are parellel, when the lens is swung, the intersection of the lens plane and film plane remains parellel to the standards. When a non-yaw-free camera is swung the intersection line does not remain parallel with the standards, it tilts depending on how much swing is applied.

[wallrat]

Preston is correct. If you tilt the rear standard which is not axis tilt, any swing will not be yaw free.

[chuck94022]

Additionally, if you drop the base, your front standard is no longer vertical (even if you have adjusted the tilt to keep the lens itself vertical), so swing will induce yaw [or in my mind, weird motion] in that case. Once you drop the base, the movements on the Chamonix front standard will get quite strange due to the fixed nature of the standard.

My bet is that this is what they will be addressing, but I suppose they'll need to do it on the rear too. It should be interesting.

[Bob Salomon]

There are only two requirements that need to be met for a camera to be yaw free

1 the swing point on the front and rear standard are below the tilt point

Or

2 The swing and tilt point is the same point on the front and rear standard.

Furthermore: if the tilt point is above the swing point as it is on most cameras then that camera is also yaw free if it is rotated 90 degrees as that would then make the former tilt points the swing point.

Since the introduction of the world's first yaw free camera, the original Limhof Kardan, no one can tell from a photograph if the image was taken with a yaw free or yaw prone camera.

The most common way to make a camera yaw free is to add an additional tilt point below the swing point. So those cameras have both a coarse tilt to level the standards and a fine tilt to do the image manipulation. Among others this is the yaw free design currently used by Linhof and Sinar.
,

[eddie]

well said bob. thanks.

on a side note i got the last 45n-1 camera! i think it is the best design to date....for what i wanted. the lightest camera with the most features. the n-1 is that for me. i sold my n-2 and called hugo and asked about buying another n-1 as i stupidly sold mine. he said they were all sold out. gone forever :(. he called me back to say he pulled some strings and they were building one last n-1 from parts they had "laying" around....just for ME!

thanks hugo!

and that y'all was a free story!

[Alan Gales]

Congratulations Eddie, that was awful nice of Hugo and Chaminox!

[eddie]

Congratulations Eddie, that was awful nice of Hugo and Chaminox!

yes sir! thanks hugo! and now for a video....or two!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeIPjxeTNq8

[eddie]

one more of hugo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqu-velKsjI

[wallrat]

Bob, well said of course. I didn't have the time yesterday to go further with my explanation but you eliminated that need, thanks. Eddie, I have had the *exact* type of experience with Hugo. I won't receive my Teak w/ Silver 02 (with extension, leather wrap and viewing hood) until next week. However, all dealing I have had with Hugo are unlink almost any other experience with a camera vendor. He is very prompt in answering all questions, very thorough, and he posts his freakin cell phone online and he actually answers it. I'm extremely happy with hist business ethics and would never hesitate for a second to recommend Chamonix to anyone, assuming the camera meets their needs of course. Hugo knows how to conduct business!

[wallrat]

Eddie or Hugo, what lens is on his 16x20 in the first video?

[Hugo Zhang]

Bill,

It's a Protar V 460mm f/18 lens. :) And thanks for kind words! You too, eddie.

Hugo

[wallrat]

Ah. The kind words are deserved. I don't typically deal out praise often.

[al olson]

Bill,

It's a Protar V 460mm f/18 lens. :) And thanks for kind words! You too, eddie.

Hugo

Hugo, let's see the results, it looks like you exposed at least two sheets. (At $40 per sheet I would have to go without food for a week!)

Please post.

Will I need to buy a bigger monitor?


;)

[Hugo Zhang]

Al,

I have very sweet memories of that trip. :) Sadly my scanner can only do 810 scan and I don't have photoshop and don't know how to stitch several images up.

[Hugo Zhang]

With New Year coming, I would like to add a few pictures of our new camera: 045F-1!

[Hugo Zhang]

045F-1 camera is a model between Chamonix N and Chamonix P models. Its most predominant feature is the added yaw-free function of the rear standard which makes the use of the camera so much easier when applying Scheimpflug principle in landscape and architecture photography.

[Hugo Zhang]

The yaw-free function of rear standard is controlled by a single knob to its related structure. It’s locked when not in use and it can be unlocked with a twist of fingers when needed. This knob has a special pale gray coating to differentiate it among other knobs.

[Hugo Zhang]

The exterior design of 045F-1 camera is slightly different from 045N model as well. Viewing from its sides, it has wider bottom and narrow top. This new design not only helps to balance the abruptness of added parts visually, but also increases the rigidity of both front and rear standards.

[Hugo Zhang]

045F-1 camera has its special ground glass with four dotted lines. No matter which way the opening faces, the dotted line on the bottom of the screen will be the yaw-free line.

[Hugo Zhang]

045F-1 will add a few millimeters of thickness and some twenty grams weight to 45N camera. This is a small price we have to pay for adding the important yaw-free function of the rear standard.

[Hugo Zhang]

Thanks and best wishes for the New Year!

[brian mcweeney]

All I can say is, beautiful.

[David R Munson]

Hugo: the new camera looks great! Will this design also be applied to larger formats?


045F-1 camera is a model between Chamonix N and Chamonix P models.

I think I've missed this. What are the P models? First I've heard of it.

[Hugo Zhang]

David,

Hass has something like precision/studio camera in mind and it is still in design stage. :)

Thanks.
Hugo

[David R Munson]

Oh man, that's probably going to kill me when it comes out!

[Brian Ellis]

And I just ordered my first LF camera, the n-2!

Not to worry, unlike digital cameras a LF camera can still make photographs after the new model comes out. : - )

[chuck94022]

Hugo, and the mysterious Hass:

Well done, looks like it will be a great product!

[mamypoko]

That is beautiful, I have 2 friends using the earlier Chamonix 45s and they are both a pleasure to work with.

[photobymike]

Years ago, I worked for a finance company. If we gave you a loan and used your furniture as collateral, and if you did not pay on the loan, we would call you and threaten to come out and "Pick up your Sticks". People never really knew what we were saying, until we came out with a big truck and 3 "gorillas" to drag your furniture out of the house.

Industry lanquage begets confusion. Perhaps one day someone will explain YAW for you as it pertains to Large Format cameras. Otherwise, it sounds to me like you just get the addition of YAW for no additional cost.

LOL LOL I use to "steal your ride" I did car repo when i was kid.... I dont care about the "yaw" i am waiting for a cheaper N2 ... Chamonix is a great camera....

No No i have changed my mind after seeing the pictures...... what a work of art..... sigh .sure beats the Graflex i have been using... i am just waiting for my income tax check..... is there waiting list? and how much cash will it take to play.....


Not to worry, unlike digital cameras a LF camera can still make photographs after the new model comes out. : - )

brian you crack me up LOL LOL

[Preston]

I have the N-2 and love it. The new Chamonix is appears to be very beautifully designed and has a great look to it. Well Done!

--P

[BradS]

Even after looking a the photos supplied by Hugo, I am still unclear how this new camera achieves back swings without introducing yaw. It sure would be helpful to see some photos of the back tilted followed by the some swing....in other words: the following sequence of photos...all with the same point of view (maybe)

1. Camera set up with all movements "zeroed".
2. some back tilt applied
3. (without changing the tilt from step 2) apply some back swing....
4 and again, swing the back in a different direction..

a movie would be the best.

[Kodachrome25]

I would also like to see a video of it in action..

[dave_whatever]

Even after looking a the photos supplied by Hugo, I am still unclear how this new camera achieves back swings without introducing yaw. It sure would be helpful to see some photos of the back tilted followed by the some swing....in other words: the following sequence of photos...all with the same point of view (maybe)

1. Camera set up with all movements "zeroed".
2. some back tilt applied
3. (without changing the tilt from step 2) apply some back swing....
4 and again, swing the back in a different direction..

a movie would be the best.

It looks to me to be less about yaw, and more that its actually adding asymetric tilt on the rear standard....anyone else agree? The lines on the glass don't make sense for anything else......I hope it is, as the very same feature which you pay thousands for on an ebony 45su. In which case I'm buying one. Hugo what's the price, and where do I sign?

[BradS]

It looks to me to be less about yaw, and more that its actually adding asymetric tilt on the rear standard....anyone else agree? The lines on the glass don't make sense for anything else......I hope it is, as the very same feature which you pay thousands for on an ebony 45su. In which case I'm buying one. Hugo what's the price, and where do I sign?

Yes, it looks like they may have asymetric tilt. I really don't see how the camera shown could possibly be yaw free.

[Hugo Zhang]

Thanks for everybody's interest and response. :)

We are going to do a video showing how to operate the new camera. ;)

We will have a small first batch of 30 cameras for overseas photographers and I do have a wait list now. Wood is teak and metal finish is black, as shown in the pictures. The price of 45F-1 is $1,030 plus $65 EMS shipping. Shipping date is about March 1. Send me an email if you would like to be on the list. :)

Hugo

[Corran]

I would like to know if the wider bottom, narrower top design on the rear standard gives better front rise performance. Currently, the 45n1 I have binds up pretty good with the standard bellows using a 90mm with lots of front rise. So is the top thinner than the older design, or is the bottom thicker? Also, is there anyway to add a simple hinge mechanic like on the Linhof cameras to aid in front rise??

[EdSawyer]

Hugo, any chance of them restarting production of the Chamonix Saber? That's a great camera and it's a shame they aren't making it anymore.

[Hugo Zhang]

A little correction here:

It is not really yaw-free. It is base and asymmetrical tilts at back. We will probably do the yaw-free thing on our 45P camera.

Hugo

[Hugo Zhang]

Here is the first comparative review of 45F-1 in Chinese by a photogapher who uses the Ebony camera that has the same asymmetrical tilts. Too long for me to translate into English and I don't want to use the forum space to advertise it either.

http://forum.xitek.com/thread-1018652-1-1-1.html

Our first small batch will be shipped next week as our factory will close for two weeks for the long Chinese New Year next month. I expect that we will read some reports in English from those who will receive their 45F-1 cameras soon.

[mathieu Bauwens]

Oh yes, it'll be a pleasure. Because, in chinese, it's a bit tricky...

[dave_whatever]

I ran that chinese page through google translate. You can just about understand the gist of it.

[lbenac]

Just to confirm that the asymmetrical movement is on the tilt only not on the swing?
Swing would require traditional focusing technique but tilt would allow the "Ebony type" of focusing?

Cheers,

Luc

[dave_whatever]

Just to confirm that the asymmetrical movement is on the tilt only not on the swing?
Swing would require traditional focusing technique but tilt would allow the "Ebony type" of focusing?

Cheers,

Luc

That's certainly how it appears. I'll confirm when mine finally gets released from UK customs.

[Eric Woodbury]

Mine released from customs yesterday. I'll start holding my breath.

[dave_whatever]

Mine arrived today, looks good, need to wait for the kids to go to bed before I give it a proper inspection.

[dave_whatever]

http://www.daveparryphotography.co.uk/new-chamonix-045f-1-first

First look here. I really need to get out of the house with this thing.

[Corran]

I'd still like to know if this new Chamonix has more rise capability with wide-angle lenses (90mm and wider) than the older models, as I suspect from the photos.

[dave_whatever]

I'd still like to know if this new Chamonix has more rise capability with wide-angle lenses (90mm and wider) than the older models, as I suspect from the photos.

OK I tested this with the following lenses focussed at infinity with ground glass in the vertical orientation:

SA 90/56 MC - Comfortable maximum for front rise with that universal bellows with the pleated section sitting around the rear lens group is about 24mm. If you pull the baggy front bellows part around the rear element then physically you can max out the camera's rise (45mm), but it looks like the pleated section will but into the top (i.e. foreground) section of image area, so a sensible maximum in this orientation is about 34mm.

Grandagon MC 90/6.8 - Much smaller rear lens group naturally stays in the baggy section, so will go straight up to max rise and viewing from the cut-curners on the ground glass it looks like there's no bellows vignetting with this lens.

In comparison, my Ebony RSW45 will go to about 45mm with both lenses before the bellows interfere with the image - but you've probably run out of image circle anyway by then.

With a Nikkor 65/4 on the Chamonix strangely you can go to the 35-45mm range, which is way beyond the image circle of the lens. I haven't got any other lenses shorter than 90mm to test.

[Corran]

Thanks for the report! Sounds excellent. If I upgrade from my v1 Cham it would be mainly for that benefit. I find it impossible to get any movements on lenses shorter than 90mm, and not much with the Nikkor 90/8. I don't have the universal bellows of course being the v1.

[dave_whatever]

To be honest except the addition of the universal bellows I don't see any changes between the 045n1 and the 045F1 that would give you more rise with shorter lenses. I think you can order those bellows for your camera separately if you want to save the cost and hassle of a full upgrade.

[Corran]

True enough. For some reason I remember not wanting the universal bellows but I can't remember why. I think I had inferred that my 47mm XL wouldn't work on it but I'm pretty sure the flange-focal distance is enough that the u. bellows would be fine for it. Thanks.

[gmfotografie]

for a beginner, can you suggest the new chamonix?

best mh

[Alan Gales]

for a beginner, can you suggest the new chamonix?

best mh

That's a hard question and it's got nothing to do with the camera. It really depends on you. Some people try sheet film and then find out that it's not for them. That's why most of us recommend buying that first camera used. That way you won't suffer much cash wise if you decide to sell.

Yes, you can start off with a field camera and I think the F1 would be a great choice in a field camera because it is so rigid. That said, I have never used a Chamonix. I own a Tachihara which is lighter but not as rigid. The Chamonix is a little different and has a free moveable front standard that needs to be screwed down. I have never heard any complaints about the camera and in fact all I hear is raves. Look up Chamonix 4x5 N2 on YouTube for videos showing how to use the camera. The F1 is quite similar to the N2 so the video will give you an idea.

[Alan Gales]

MHoth, go to the lounge and down 14 from the top. Hugo posted Frank Petronio's positive opinion about the F1 after he bought one. Frank is a professional photographer who has used a lot of cameras.

[richardman]

I am new to 4x5, although not to film. I shoot XPan, and even a 617 view camera regularly. Anyway, I love my new Chamonix 4x5 F1. The asymmetrical back tilt means that (if exaggerated perspective is OK with you with the front objects) it just takes one focus and tilt to make Scheimpflug work for you. It still has regular swing and tilt of course.

Any way, highly recommended.