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Cletus
26-Nov-2012, 05:38
I know there's been a lot of discussion about these here, but the ultra precise and 'Google-like' LFF search engine doesnt seem to turn this up...

I bought a couple 8x10 FE film holders recently from Fleabay. They are in excellent condition and look like new, even on close examination, and I'm having a problem with one of them. I shoot HP5+ and can't get the sheet to slide all the way into (both sides) of one of the holders without a LOT of fussing and fighting. It's like the little tracks on the sides that the film slips into tighten up about 2/3 of the way down and the sheet hangs up at this point.

Now I know it sounds obvious that the holder is warped, but here's what I can't get: I've taken several measurements with feeler gauges down the tracks and both seem consistent all the way down, about 0.005-6 on both sides. A careful examination with a straightedge looks nothing amiss, or warped looking, where I'm able to inspect with it anyway. And last, when I try to load an unexposed, developed negative (an earlier whoops turned into a darkroom tool and template), the negative slips right in without the slightest resistance. So does the darkslide. ???

I am truly puzzled by this and have no idea what correction I might make to "straighten this out", so to speak. I'm sure it's some kind of bend in the holder, but certainly nothing I can see or measure and I'm stumped.

The fact that a developed negative goes in without the least problem really has me going. Is there that much difference in thickness twixt an unexposed sheet and a processed negative? A new sheet really sticks hard and is very difficult to load.

Somebody please tell me you've seen this before and have a really handy test, or fix for whatever this insidious problem is!

Thanks,
- Frustrated

Doremus Scudder
26-Nov-2012, 06:14
I'd imagine your problem has more to do with the maximum width of the holder than with the depth of the tracks. It's easy to get "crossed up" a little when loading in the dark, and then the film will bind because one of the leading corners is digging in. I'll bet that if your load your developed neg with your eyes closed a time or two, you'll find the same problem. The solution should be just to wiggle the sheet from side-to-side a bit to eliminate the bind.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Cletus
26-Nov-2012, 07:24
I don't necessarily disagree with this thought, but this is a repaetable problem with this holder only and I have no trouble at all with any of my others. And the jam occurs 2/3 or so of the way into the slot, which to me eliminates the corner catching theory.

I'm pretty sure the holder is slightly bent, or warped in some way, I just can't for the life of me understand how or where it's bent.

Ari
26-Nov-2012, 07:33
Maybe something is caught in the groove, and you haven't yet been able to see it..

Jim C.
26-Nov-2012, 10:23
Pretty odd problem if a developed neg will slide in, but not a undeveloped one,
have you tried sliding your feeler gauge down the film channels to see if there is
some sort of intermittent tang that might hold you up ?
The dark slide shouldn't matter since rides in it's own groove.

lenser
26-Nov-2012, 10:43
Just for grins, try taking a sheet of 4x5 (yes 4x5) and push it up against the inside of the channel on each side while you try to slide it all the way down each of those tracks. Pushing it against the inner edge of the channel with the leverage you will have from the 4x5, may engage whatever is catching the 8x10 sheets and might definitively establish which side is the problem.

I don't know if there is any difference in dimension between processed and unprocessed sheets of 8x10, but there is the slight possibility that loading in the light, instead of the dark, might actually give you a different handling technique since you are watching instead of feeling. Using a 4x5 sheet as described would eliminate that possibility since you won't be working with a possible torquing of the larger sheet of film.

cowanw
26-Nov-2012, 11:04
I usually clip some of the corners of my films, to help me identify which film, lighting, lens etc. Anyway the tiny 45 degree nip helps things slide in.

Leigh
26-Nov-2012, 13:18
I've taken several measurements with feeler gauges down the tracks and both seem consistent all the way down, about 0.005-6 on both sides.
That's unreasonably thin, or there's an error in the measurement. Have you measured other holders?

Ilford b&w film is on a .007" (175μm) base, while Fuji color film is on a .008" (205μm) base.

- Leigh

Cletus
26-Nov-2012, 14:33
Leigh -

I've remeasured the holder with a feeler gauge - more carefully this time - and I think I see the problem. Still strange though. The groove is about 0.009-.010 until I get about two-thirds of the way down on both sides, except where the film is sticking. There it tightens to about 0.007. It's on both grooves on both sides of this holder. Looks like that's why I'm hanging up in there, but I'll be damned if I can understand what the problem is. I guess the holder is bent somehow, just can't see how!

Andrew O'Neill
26-Nov-2012, 15:04
Wedge a piece of sand paper under the grove and file it back a bit. I did that with an older holder. Works fine now.

Cletus
26-Nov-2012, 15:11
Andrew -

Yep, I'd been considering doing something like that, I just don't like the prospect of introducing any dust (abrasive grit!) that would be impossible to remove completely, into this holder. How were you able to completely remove the dust from the holder when you sanded yours?

Andrew O'Neill
26-Nov-2012, 15:16
After I sanded it with medium grit, I sanded it again with wet/dry sand paper. Then I blasted the hell out of the grooves with canned air. Never had any dust problems.

Curt
26-Nov-2012, 16:33
Maybe something is caught in the groove, and you haven't yet been able to see it..

That's my first thought. It doesn't take much.

Leigh
26-Nov-2012, 18:26
I don't like the idea of sanding for a couple of reasons. One is dust, the other is that you'll thin the material.

Just get a piece of .010" shim stock and push it the full length of the slot on both sides.
That will expand the constricted section.

Since this is happening on both sides of one holder, I'm inclined to think it's a manufacturing defect.
Perhaps the septums got pinched somehow before they were installed in the holder frame.

- Leigh

Andrew O'Neill
26-Nov-2012, 19:32
Have you ever tried it, Leigh? I have and no problem.

Leigh
26-Nov-2012, 20:17
No. I've never had this problem. If I did, I wouldn't sand it for the reasons stated above.

I'm a machinist, so I'm reasonably familiar with metal modification techniques.

- Leigh

tgtaylor
26-Nov-2012, 21:39
..
Now I know it sounds obvious that the holder is warped, but here's what I can't get: I've taken several measurements with feeler gauges down the tracks and both seem consistent all the way down, about 0.005-6 on both sides. A careful examination with a straightedge looks nothing amiss, or warped looking, where I'm able to inspect with it anyway. And last, when I try to load an unexposed, developed negative (an earlier whoops turned into a darkroom tool and template), the negative slips right in without the slightest resistance. So does the darkslide. ???

I am truly puzzled by this and have no idea what correction I might make to "straighten this out", so to speak. I'm sure it's some kind of bend in the holder, but certainly nothing I can see or measure and I'm stumped.

The fact that a developed negative goes in without the least problem really has me going. Is there that much difference in thickness twixt an unexposed sheet and a processed negative? A new sheet really sticks hard and is very difficult to load.

Somebody please tell me you've seen this before and have a really handy test, or fix for whatever this insidious problem is!

Thanks,
- Frustrated

Yes - I had the same or very similar experience when I first started loading 8x10 holders (new Fidelity Elite's) in my Harrison 8x10 tent. The problem is that the film and holder is large and there is very little room to manuver inside the tent which results in you failing to push the film straight in: A slight displacement in your "aim" throws the whole process off. My remedy is to place the leading edge of the film at the very tip of the holders leading grooves and lightly push the film down on one side. You'll hear or feel a slight "snap" at it snaps into the grove. Without moving the sheet do the same thing on the other side. Then with both leading edges firmly in their groves, place the tips of the fingers on one hand (I'm right-handed so I use my left here) in the center of the leading edge of the sheet and gently push the sheet straight in with the other hand. It's ok and a good idea to help the sheet along by pressing down on the leading edge with a finger and drag it along while pushing the sheet with the other hand. At around the half way mark the natural sag is gone and you can let go with the left hand and push it the rest of the way in with the other. Just make sure that you touch only the very tip of the sheet and not its interior or you may end up with a fingerprint in the image. It's a good idea to wash both hands thoroughly and dry completely before loading sheet film - especially 8x10 or larger.

Thomas

Doremus Scudder
27-Nov-2012, 05:38
Wedge a piece of sand paper under the grove and file it back a bit. I did that with an older holder. Works fine now.

+1

Yes. On rereading your post and the rest of the thread, it looks like you have a thin spot. Processed film is possibly a bit thinner than unprocessed due to the anti-halation layer being dissolved away, etc. The sandpaper trick should do the trick.

Best,

Doremus

Cletus
27-Nov-2012, 06:48
I'll be revisiting this issue when I get home in a few days. I've got all my holders loaded and going out on a little shooting trip this morning.

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.

TgTaylor - I understand what you're saying - I think - and normally when I'm loading holders and 'get into my groove', I grab the sheet by the trailing, or back edge, feel for the bottom notch with the lower (inside?) corner, and then push and the whole sheet just slips right in. In the case of this holder, it goes the same way until the sheet is ~2/3 of the way in, then hangs up. It's clearly 'pinched' in there and won't go any further without a bunch of cajoling and effort. It's definitely not a corner catching or any kind of 'hard stop'.

When I get back and unload the holder, I'll probably try to make a little 0.010 go-nogo 'shim' and see if I can open up the tight spot with it. We'll see.