Best 'starter' lens?

[m1tch]

Hi all,

I am getting into large format and will gradually purchasing the components over time to be able to build up a large format kit, im going with a 5x4 setup so that I can keep the cost down a bit, plus the negatives are big enough for what I plan to do - hybrid method of scanning and cyanotype prints.

Am I correct that a normal lens is about 3xfocal lengh of the 35mm equivilent meaning a prime 50mm 35mm camera lens is a 150mm large format lens? I will mainly be doing landscapes as I enjoy the extra detail with the larger negative, I have a couple of medium format cameras and some 35mm cameras but i'm looking forward to large format the most as its where photography began.

Anyway, I am just wondering which lens I should have a look at getting to start with to 'get me started' so to speak, im guessing I should just go with a normal lens rather than a wide for my starter lens as I know that wide lenses are usually more expensive.

I do like the fact that you can buy a lens and it will fit any camera rather than worrying about lens mount types which is good, i'm looking at my large format camera being something that I can invest in over time and gradually build up lenses etc. What would people suggest to start out with? I am aware that some lenses don't have shutters etc, I think it would be easiest to go with a lens with everything together ie shutter as well as the lens.

How much should I look at saving up for regarding a lens? I know I can't afford a Cooke yet!

[E. von Hoegh]

Get any standard Plasmat type 150mm lens made by any of the big four, Schneider Fuji Nikkor Rodenstock. $ 175 - $250.

Have you looked at the homepage of this site? A great deal of good advice is to be found there. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

[m1tch]

Get any standard Plasmat type 150mm lens made by any of the big four, Schneider Fuji Nikkor Rodenstock. $ 175 - $250.

Have you looked at the homepage of this site? A great deal of good advice is to be found there. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Thanks for your help on this, I came in via the forum so I missed the homepage lol I will check it out :) that seem pretty reasonable for a lens considering these were built to last unlike these more modern plastic lenses on DSLRs, im looking forward to buying a proper lens for a proper camera :) are there any lenses that are the 'holy grail' of lenses in case I see a random lens on Ebay or in a shop for not much money?

[Andrew]

hint: life will be easier if you look for a lens in a modern copal shutter because, if you're buying second hand it's going to be more likely to work properly and will be easier to get serviced if it needs work. Steer clear of the vintage gear till you're up and running.

and before someone slams that comment.... it's an empirical observation from having bought a bunch of used lenses

[Len Middleton]

are there any lenses that are the 'holy grail' of lenses in case I see a random lens on Ebay or in a shop for not much money?

If you are smart (or lucky), you will be grossly outbid by someone else for more money than it would really likely be worth...

Bargains can be had, but probably your best deal will come with buying someone else's full 4x5 kit with all the other bits (holders, lenses, lensboards, camera, tripod, etc.).

Good luck

You want a lens in a good working shutter, with the lens elements clean, no fungus, ideally no cleaning marks, etc.

[m1tch]

If you are smart (or lucky), you will be grossly outbid by someone else for more money than it would really likely be worth...

Bargains can be had, but probably your best deal will come with buying someone else's full 4x5 kit with all the other bits (holders, lenses, lensboards, camera, tripod, etc.).

Good luck

You want a lens in a good working shutter, with the lens elements clean, no fungus, ideally no cleaning marks, etc.

Thanks Len,

The online used camera shop I normally use is 'Rocky cameras' as I am in the UK, they have all sorts of lenses, cameras and accessories, will be grabbing some accessories from there like holders and then lenses probably, will be getting a Shen camera as I am a fan of wood and metal rather than plastic and carbon fibre, need to find a decent tripod as well but as im not shooting an ULF camera it shouldn't weigh too much!

With shutters and indeed apertures what would be most useful, some of my older cameras (such as a Kodak no.2 folding autographic brownie) have very few shutter and aperture settings much like other cameras of that age which I have sometimes found to be an issue when shooting on 'normal' film - but would have been very very fast film for when the camera was made.

I wouldn't really be shooting the camera wide open but I know that if the aperture is too small you lose sharpness through diffraction, ive seen some LF lenses go up to F45, I know that DoF changes depending on the focal length so as I will be shooting landscapes what would be a good F stop and shutter speed range be? I don't want to get a lens and then find that I can't stop it down enough or the shutter speed I need is 'missing' so to speak, I also know that LF lenses are usually slower anyway, but as its not hand held slower speeds are fine :D

[Dan Fromm]

Mitch, if all you do do educate yourself about LF is ask questions on bulletin boards you'll stay on the road to making every beginner's mistake. There are many.

Before you buy any kit, buy a book on the subject and study it. Two good choices are Steve Simmons' Using the View Camera and Leslie Strobel's View Camera Technique.

[m1tch]

Mitch, if all you do do educate yourself about LF is ask questions on bulletin boards you'll stay on the road to making every beginner's mistake. There are many.

Before you buy any kit, buy a book on the subject and study it. Two good choices are Steve Simmons' Using the View Camera and Leslie Strobel's View Camera Technique.

Its why I don't have any kit at the moment lol im researching into LF, I will have a look out for those books, I won't be buying anything for a while as I want to get it right first time :) I wanted to ask a few questions on the forum as there are book on the matter and then there is the experience from members on the forum which isn't written in a book, im getting a bit of both before I make a decision on kit.

[sully75]

150mm or 135mm I think would do you well. Basically any modern lens in good condition is going to be absolutely fine.

[Jim Jones]

I agree with Len that buying a fairly complete kit is often cheaper than buying comparable components individually. I've found ebay has some bargains here in the USA, but requires a lot of research, patience, and some luck. Rather than decide what camera, lens, and accessories are best, choose from what is available at a good price. Do as Dan says, get a good book (or several) on LF photography. Even the old editions of the Ansel Adams books have his interesting insight into photography. If LF photography becomes important to you, you may eventually try several cameras and lenses, but one good tripod should last a lifetime. Choose it well. Fairly new lenses may be better than older ones, but many of us don't need that slight advantage in quality. My all-time favorite lens for 4x5 is an Ektar 203mm f/7.7 about 60 years old. Lenses designed for 4x5 press cameras are often found on view cameras, but they don't have enough coverage for front movements.

[m1tch]

Thanls for your comments Jim, im going to be taking my time over this, the tripod will indeed be a fair investment but will be useful for all the cameras I have so I will be spending a bit of cash on that and will probably end up with something with carbon fibre legs or something so its easy to carry around. It will be an interesting blend of traditional wood and metal camera and modern carbon fibre legs shooting modern films and then contact printing on Cyanotype lol :D

I would be looking for the older lenses as they have more 'feeling' so to speak with their slightly soft focus and imperfections vs the high tech optics today which I feel are a bit too clinical and too perfect, its good that with large format lenses you simply just mount the lens on another lens board and swap it out rather than being limited to a certain range of lenses to fit a certain mount. I will check out some of the press cameras as well then, although I don't really want to buy a lens I like but then find that as soon as I try a front movement the image circle isn't big enough to allow me to get the shot I wanted.

[C. D. Keth]

Well, just looking in the classifieds right now, the 180mm Fujinon W that timserrano is selling or the 150mm convertible symmar I am selling would both be good first lenses.

[wallrat]

There is a nice 150 / 256 convertible for sale in the "for sale" forum right now. If you haven't been a member long enough to see that forum somebody can put you in touch with the seller. That would be a great starter as you can remove the front elements to make a 256mm lens out of it.

[wallrat]

Well, I guess I left the thread open long enough for Christopher to post before I did. Yeah, it's his lens :)

[m1tch]

Lol, im in the UK so might have an issue with shipping it over etc, im going to hold off buying the more expensive items (like lenses and tripods) for a bit, im not in a position to buy at the moment, the next item im buying will be an Epson V500 photo scanner and some chemicals for Cyanotype first. I'm just absorbing information on whats out there and what I should look for first rather than rushing out and buying the first bit of glass I find lol (tempting as it may be!). I'm still getting into photography in general so would need to build up my experience a bit first before buying large format gear and I need to work out my workflow with regards to development and digital aspects (such as scanners etc).

The idea of a convertable lens like that its pretty cool, I guess its an 'old school' method of zooming lol the 256 focal length would be good for a portrait lens I am guessing as its a long normal?

[wallrat]

Exactly right on the convertible. Some will argue that when converted (to 256) it's not as sharp as other non-convertibles in that range but in my experience that is splitting hairs, especially when starting out. Good luck, it's a fun, addictive ride!

[m1tch]

Exactly right on the convertible. Some will argue that when converted (to 256) it's not as sharp as other non-convertibles in that range but in my experience that is splitting hairs, especially when starting out. Good luck, it's a fun, addictive ride!

Thanks for your comment, I will defiantly look out for convertible lenses when I do start buying kit, I thought that all LF lenses were primes which is why some LF bags are large to allow for a wide range of lens on lens boards :D i'm actually not too worried about how sharp the image is, a few of them will be contact printed onto Cyanotype. I also find that the older lenses that aren't quite as sharp have more feel to them so to speak, if I wanted a perfect clinical image of what I am photographing then I would just use a digital camera with a high end lens - that's not my goal.

[Kevin Crisp]

Don't buy an older lens with damaged filter threads, or with the inside threads on the front element painted black. The painting often happens on the Symmar convertibles. You won't be able to disassemble it to clean off haze in either case; sometimes they need that. If you think a convertible Symmar will look softer you may be disappointed, at least when used at the shorter focal length. A late Symmar convertible in a Copal shutter is an excellent first lens. (Serial number around 11,000,000)

Depends on what you shoot, but I'd start with a 150. If it is likely to be your only lens for some time, then a 135mm, unless you are primarily shooting portraits.

[Jim Jones]

. . . the next item im buying will be an Epson V500 photo scanner . . .

Consider the Epson V700. It's much more expensive, but capable of scanning up to 8x10 negatives. This may be valuable in your future.

[m1tch]

Consider the Epson V700. It's much more expensive, but capable of scanning up to 8x10 negatives. This may be valuable in your future.

Hmmm tempting! I did have a look at the V700, it would have been my first choice if it wasn't so expensive, although I might just stay with 5x4s and 8x10 is massive lol

[Cletus]

Mitch -

It's always a good idea to do some research, read some books and ask these questions - or otherwise educate yourself - about this move into LF you are contemplating. You'll get some good advice and some not so good advice here and it's difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff (so to speak) without having tried out the cameras and have at least a little experience under your belt.

I'll try not to belabor the point here too much, but many here, including myself, have taken the same road you are and have asked the same questions. I've only been doing LF for a few years and I had the same camera you are looking at. It's an excellent camera to start out with (or stay with) and is full featured enough you may never need another.

As for lenses, I wouldn't worry too much about making some big mistake and setting yourself up for regret if you go with something simple and 'all-purpose' as has already been suggested. Get a modern 125-180mm in a Copal shutter from any of the four majors for a couple hundred bucks (I'm biased toward Fujinon, but they're all excellent) and go out and shoot with it for awhile. It won't take you long at all to "see the light" and in a short time you'll have a very good idea of where you want to go from there.

I completely understand the mindset you are likely to be in, moving up from small formats and being used to the cameras, lenses and other gear. Large Format is a whole different animal and you won't really get it until you start doing it.

And second the opinion on the tripod. You don't need a big heavy monster for the camera you're getting now, but if you just bite the bullet and get the best tripod you can conceive (Gitzo series 3 or 5, or Really Right Stuff) you'll never regret it and you'll never need to buy another tripod as long as you live. Get anything less, or try to skimp in this department and you will almost certainly buy MANY more tripods! Take my word for it! If there's one major difference between LF and everything else - your tripod will become one of your primary and most crucial pieces of gear.

Good luck, have fun!

[Marizu]

Hi from Manchester!


I won't be buying anything for a while as I want to get it right first time :)
My experience with LF is that you never actually get it right, so for your first camera, I'd advise getting it cheap :D
When you understand what you need for the photographs that you want to make then get the appropriate camera (and possibly sell the old one).
Some people simply don't get on with the whole LF workflow and it's better to figure that out on the cheap if possible.


Hmmm tempting! I did have a look at the V700, it would have been my first choice if it wasn't so expensive, although I might just stay with 5x4s and 8x10 is massive lol
The V500 won't scan a 5x4 negative (on the film scanning head). It only does up to medium format film. I had to shift mine and get a V700 when I wanted to scan 5x4 negs.
A V500 could be used for scanning the cyanotype(paper) negs that you mentioned in a previous thread but you will end up wanting a V700.

Just make sure that you have figured out the costs of your complete workflow (film changing, film developing, scanning or optical output) before you start buying stuff.

Good luck!

[Ivan J. Eberle]

A seemingly inexhaustible supply of 210mm f/5.6 Plasmats circulate on eBay as tremendous bargains, apochromatic glass optics that were once selling for greater than 5 times what they routinely sell for in mint condition today (sub $200 USD). This focal length was the coin of the realm for student, studio and commercial portraiture work. 210mm lenses have a significant advantage in image circle over 135mm or 150mm lenses of the same design. Having a surplus of IC will emphasize the advantages 4x5 format yet enjoys over other formats.

[Craig Roberts]

My first 4x5 kit (1970) included a 210mm and a 90mm. I still use the 210 WAY more than any other lens for 4x5.

[Cletus]

Can't argue with that. 210 is a hell of a versatile lens. And cheap for great quality.

[ImSoNegative]

I think a 152mm ektar is a great lens, very cheap in price. and like jim posted, the 203 ektar is another great lens, though a bit higher in price than the 152. I bought my 152 from keh bargain grade 55.00

[John Kasaian]

For the OP's purposes I'd agree that a more modern used 210mm from any of the big three would serve him well. There are plenty of examples of vintage glass that would work as well, but are they available in the UK at the same prices we see here in the US? I don't know, nor do I know how long the hunt would take to find a 203 Ektar or say, 162 Velostigmat in the UK whereas a used Schneider or Nikon "warhorse" might be more commonly "sourced"(as they say over there) Just sayin'

[Ole Tjugen]

Keep it simple: Get any working camera, and any lens with a working shutter and a focal length somewhere from 150mm to 210mm.

Play with that a while, then you will know what you want.

Since you're in the UK you might look for a well-used Gandolfi camera; then you won't ever need another. Except maybe more Gandolfis...

[Peter De Smidt]

As others have said, a modern 210 in a Copal or Compur shutter would be a terrific choice. It's my second most used focal length. My most used is a 120mm. If you get an F8 wide angle version, like a Super Angulon, you'll have lot's of image circle to play with. 120mm is wide angle, but it's easier to focus than the 90mm ones. 210 and 120 are a great pair for landscapes an portraits. If architecture is your thing, especially interiors, a 90mm might be a better choice. In that case, look for an F6.8 or faster. The F8 varieties are good lenses, but they can be difficult to focus, especially in dim interiors.

[Randy]

Since m1tch said he would mainly be doing landscapes, would starting with a Crown Graphic and what ever lens they often come with (I can't remember - 127mm, 135mm) be a good option? That's what I started with back in the mid 80's when I got my first 4X5.

[Rafal Lukawiecki]

My experience with LF is that you never actually get it right, so for your first camera, I'd advise getting it cheap :D
When you understand what you need for the photographs that you want to make then get the appropriate camera (and possibly sell the old one).
Some people simply don't get on with the whole LF workflow and it's better to figure that out on the cheap if possible.

Marizu, your advice is sound and safe, though it may also be possible to take a managed risk on buying a better camera, or a lens, to start with, and not to have to change those later. To reduce the risk, ideally, OP would rent it, or a similar one, for a while, to see if it works for him. By better, I do not imply necessarily new, it could be a more cared for, or newer, less used, etc., but perhaps not driven by being the cheapest that fits a general spec. As others said, sometimes, it is worth saving a little and getting the right tripod, than changing a poorer one several times. A cheap first experience can be too frustrating to stay the course. M1tch is doing well by asking for recommendations, and reading up the superb resources available here, APUG, and the suggested books.

I suppose I may be a relative LF newcomer, as I bought my first 4x5 in 2000. However, 12 years later, I am still using it, it is still my only LF camera, and I cannot think of needing anything else. It does all I need, and it gives me pleasure to get to know it better each time I use it. Except for 1 of my 5 lenses, all of them are the same ones, I have always had them. My tripod, is also the same, though I have changed the head. So is the backpack. In the long run, I think I have also saved some money this way, though the initial purchases were more expensive than cheapest. And they took more work, but I did them slowly, taking time.

I am not saying this is the right way for everyone. For instance, my photography is not as varied as that of others, hence needing only one camera, but I just wanted to share a slightly different perspective.

[John Kasaian]

Marizu, your advice is sound and safe, though it may also be possible to take a managed risk on buying a better camera, or a lens, to start with, and not to have to change those later. To reduce the risk, ideally, OP would rent it, or a similar one, for a while, to see if it works for him. By better, I do not imply necessarily new, it could be a more cared for, or newer, less used, etc., but perhaps not driven by being the cheapest that fits a general spec. As others said, sometimes, it is worth saving a little and getting the right tripod, than changing a poorer one several times. A cheap first experience can be too frustrating to stay the course. M1tch is doing well by asking for recommendations, and reading up the superb resources available here, APUG, and the suggested books.

I suppose I may be a relative LF newcomer, as I bought my first 4x5 in 2000. However, 12 years later, I am still using it, it is still my only LF camera, and I cannot think of needing anything else. It does all I need, and it gives me pleasure to get to know it better each time I use it. Except for 1 of my 5 lenses, all of them are the same ones, I have always had them. My tripod, is also the same, though I have changed the head. So is the backpack. In the long run, I think I have also saved some money this way, though the initial purchases were more expensive than cheapest. And they took more work, but I did them slowly, taking time.

I am not saying this is the right way for everyone. For instance, my photography is not as varied as that of others, hence needing only one camera, but I just wanted to share a slightly different perspective.

FWIW, I'd say condition means everything. The last thing I'd want to see a newbie LF'er have to deal with is a leaky, unsteady, or otherwise troublesome camera/film holders/lens &shutter.
When you get into Speeders and Crowns they have limitations, but those aren't an issue if the camera is used for the purposes for which it was intended (but that could be said about all LF cameras!) If weight isn't an issue, an old monorail will likely be even more affordable and just as "bullet proof." If hiking is a priority, then by all means look at a folder. If just learning the ropes is the first order, any good, working camera should fill the bill and enable you to decide what features rock your world.

That said, what I've found is that if you look at a camera and can visualize yourself using it---and want to use it---that will likely be the ticket since you'll actually want to get out and use it. Too many LF cameras sit around collecting termites (or rust) after the newness wears of and the drudgery begins. The more you shoot, likely the better you'll get and the more pleasing the results and...the more you'll shoot!
It won't have to be a new camera--maybe even a speeder or crown--- just so long as it is a camera you want to get out there and mess with.

[Rafal Lukawiecki]

FWIW, I'd say condition means everything. The last thing I'd want to see a newbie LF'er have to deal with is a leaky, unsteady, or otherwise troublesome camera/film holders/lens [...]
Too many LF cameras sit around collecting termites (or rust) after the newness wears of and the drudgery begins. The more you shoot, likely the better you'll get and the more pleasing the results and...the more you'll shoot!
It won't have to be a new camera--maybe even a speeder or crown--- just so long as it is a camera you want to get out there and mess with.

John, how I wish a friend of mine heard your advice a while ago, before I met her. 60% of her effort, and film, is now going into fixing issues, like diagnosing random flares due to every possible type of a light leak, inability to use a front tilt, or very uncertain shutters. After a spell of leaving LF aside, and a trial-by-faulty MF backs, she returned to LF, persevering and fixing some problems—other people most probably would just get disheartened. The hard part for me, watching this, is that she has a good eye for composition, access to hard to reach landscapes, and actually has something special, and personal to her, to express this way, on film.

[Joseph Dickerson]

M1tch,

Good advice above about buying a lens (or lenses) from one of the major makers. But I don't think anyone has pointed out that the Caltar or Calumet branded lenses were/are made by the very same manufacturers and are usually priced a bit cheaper due to the "lesser" brand. No difference in quality, cheaper price, that really appeals to my Scottishness. I have had several Caltar lenses over the years and everyone has been excellent.

JD

[JBAphoto]

Look through the membership and see if there is anyone close enough to you to show you what a couple of lenses look like through the camera

If you are planning to work with landscape consider a 135, a tiny bit wider than the standard 150, but has a greater feel of engagement in the landscape without getting too wide to use easily. Again just get a bog standard Symmar

If you are considering portraits or still life, consider a 210 starter, again a bog standard Symmar - 'though I prefer my ancient 210 Xenar to my too-bitey Symmar

Note, I emboldened "consider" because that is what I am saying!!!!

[Rafal Lukawiecki]

As JBAphoto suggested, getting together with others is a great idea. In Dublin, APUGers meet twice a year, I suppose there may be something similar in UK. As far as I know, Dec 9th, there is a Wolverhampton Camera Fair (http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1424879), and some very experienced members, who post here, should be going there. It could be a chance to pick some gear, with less risk. Or, if, by a stroke of chance, you were near Dublin on 9th, we are having a LF meet-up. (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum237/112710-lf-meet-up.html)

[Joseph O'Neil]

For what it is worth, when I was first starting out in LF, I found a 210mm "difficult" to work with. I personally found a 135mm easy to work with, and to this day, I find it is my favourite lens to work with overall. I have changed with specific brands and type of 135mm lens I use over the years, but the size to me has always been first choice.

Also, for what is is worth, and everybody is different, so bear that in mind, I personally like a 180mm over a 210mm. Dunno why, but just how I frame things in my head beforehand, the 180mm fits better in my "mind's eye" so to speak.

good luck
joe

[m1tch]

I have gone with a 135mm lens, I have actually gone with a Pacemaker speed graphic camera 5x4 size which has been fully restored and CLAed and its running a 135mm Schneider Kreuznach f4.7 lens, also the speed graphic has a focal plane shutter as well so I can also get a barrel lens :) 135mm works out to I think a 45mm for an small format SLR so a slightly wide normal which should be good for a starter focal distance. I will be on the look out for a convertable lens as well at some point as they seem pretty useful instead of having a bag full of lenses and boards!

Here are some images of the actual camera that is arriving on Tuesday:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/T2eC16VHJGkE9no8hZ6tBQqOPEL7WQ60_57.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/KGrHqNHJFYFChEC-9BQqOQVlFow60_57.jpg

In the future I will probably 'upgrade' to something like a 8x10 and a 'normal' large format camera which has more movements and allowed for the use of wider lenses, but I went for this one to start me off as its half the price of a 'body only' Shen.

[Darin Boville]

Everything on this thread is right on the money--I too had (have) a 150 convertible and like it--but I would just add that many people, including me, starting in 4x5 with a Crown Graphic (or Speed Graphic). A couple of hundred bucks with lens, widely available. Plenty of camera. Learn all that it has to offer before getting immersed in a full-movement camera and you'll be a happy guy/girl.

Edit: Our posts crossed in the mail. You cam is the perfect choice...

--Darin

[m1tch]

Thanks Darin, the guy I am getting it off has been restoring Pacemaker speed graphic and crown graphics for about 10 years, I might be tempted to get myself a rollfilm back at some point as well although I do have 3 x DDS, but no way to develop the film (that I havn't got yet lol). Its pretty cool that it has a shutter speed up to 1/1000s meaning I can buy cheaper slower shutter speed lenses (ie older lenses or barrel lenses) and still be able to shoot whatever speed I want to, the camera does have some movements on the front standard which will get me going. Just need a decent tripod now, but at least I have something to put on top of it when I do get one!

[Darin Boville]

Don't take the cam shutter and its shutter speeds too seriously--you'll never get 1/1000. Probably end up using the lens shutter anyway. Lenses are cheap. Looks like you already have a 135. Add a 210 for $150 USD, a 90 for $200. But not yet. Having too much gear can be a curse. Creativity seems to have something to do with constraints. Start with the 135 and use it for six months or a year. Maybe never buy anything else. Don't get caught up in the gear-mania that is common on internet forums.

--Darin

[m1tch]

Its ok, im going to keep this setup for a while, I know I can't go super wide with this camera but thats fine, its slightly wider than the normal 150mm so thats good enough for me, this will be a 'learning' camera before I get a full on large format camera with loads of movements etc.