"It's upside down!"

[retnull]

It's happened countless times: a friend or stranger is curious about the strange big camera. When I show them the image on the ground glass, they invariably exclaim, "It's upside down! Why?"

I have yet to come up with a quick, clear way of explaining this to the layman.
"It's just the way lenses work" is not satisfying.
What do you say?

[Jeff Dexheimer]

I remember learning in elementary school that lenses invert images. Seems like an easy conversation to me. light from the upper part of the lens is projected to the bottom of the gg and vice versa. Then tell them that you didn't even notice it.

[Leigh]

Tell them
"It's one of those optical things. Mirrors reverse images left to right, lenses invert things top to bottom."

- Leigh

[Mark Stahlke]

Tell them "Yeah, I've been meaning to fix that".

[drew.saunders]

If you're feeling a bit cruel: "No it isn't, it looks fine to me. Are you feeling OK?"

[hoffy]

Hah! My 9 year old had a look, laughed and when I explained it to her understood straight away. Got to love children and their absorbent minds.

[Mark Sawyer]

"It's upside down! Why?"

I have yet to come up with a quick, clear way of explaining this to the layman.
"It's just the way lenses work" is not satisfying.
What do you say?

I tell them the camera is from Australia...

[jcoldslabs]

"Lenses invert things top to bottom."

I usually say something along these lines and then add that the image on your retina is upside down, too, but your brain corrects for it.

Jonathan

[Steve Smith]

If you think of the lens as a pinhole it makes more sense. If that doesn't help then describe the light coming from the subject a a straight steel rod pivoting about the centre of the lens or a piece of string stretched between the subject and film passing through the centre of the lens.


Steve.

[Cletus]

I think it's interesting the way we (or at least I; but assuming any view camera user) don't even notice the upside-down image when focusing. I have to think about it and consciously look for it to realize it anymore. I wonder if our brain learns to automatically invert the image after awhile, similar to the way it does with our normal vision?

[sully75]

Don't our eyes do the same thing?

[SergeiR]

I think it's interesting the way we (or at least I; but assuming any view camera user) don't even notice the upside-down image when focusing. I have to think about it and consciously look for it to realize it anymore. I wonder if our brain learns to automatically invert the image after awhile, similar to the way it does with our normal vision?

You brain already do it. Images that our eyes do see are in fact same - upside down. You brain trains through your life to get them back. Same way as it trains to fill in gaps in vision (blind spots and unsharp zones), to transform very narrow field of sharp vision into wider one, to deal with scanning nature of human vision.

[SergeiR]

Don't our eyes do the same thing?
Yup. Physics, 10th grade, (11th now) in regular russian schools.

[BrianShaw]

Yup. Physics, 10th grade, (11th now) in regular russian schools.

Same in regular Catholic schools too.

[C. D. Keth]

Same in regular Catholic schools too.

They teach science in Catholic schools?

[ImSoNegative]

i had to explain this very thing last week to a young lady i was photographing, she looked more confused after the explanation : )

[hoffy]

They teach science in Catholic schools?

And on the sixth day...

[Pete Watkins]

hoffy,
That's maths!

[John Kasaian]

They teach science in Catholic schools?

These guys attended Catholic schools
http://francesblogg.blogspot.com/2009/03/catholic-scientists-index.html

[David Swinnard]

I used to say "shhhh, don't say that too loud... I turn the prints over before I give them to the clients..."

[Jerry Bodine]

"The world is upside down ... the camera sees it like it is."

[Leonard Evens]

They teach science in Catholic schools?

I am not a Catholic and I haven't attended Catholic schools, but a good friend who is told me that the treatment of evolution in his Catholic school was the accepted scientific version.

I am sure Catholic schools, like other schools, vary somewhat in how well they treat science, but as best I can tell, they don't teach religious myths in place of science, as is true in some other religious schools.

The Catholic Church persecuted Galilieo for teaching the heliocentric version of the solar system, but they eventually---in the 20th century---they admitted their error.

[BrianShaw]

I am not a Catholic and I haven't attended Catholic schools, but a good friend who is told me that the treatment of evolution in his Catholic school was the accepted scientific version.

I am sure Catholic schools, like other schools, vary somewhat in how well they treat science, but as best I can tell, they don't teach religious myths in place of science, as is true in some other religious schools.

The Catholic Church persecuted Galilieo for teaching the heliocentric version of the solar system, but they eventually---in the 20th century---they admitted their error.

I am, and I have, and you are right (about Catholic schools; I know nothing of other religoius schools).

But I did get a heartly laugh from Christopher's comment. It was just too funny!

[Bob Sawin]

I usually mumble "Damn...that explains a lot!".

[C. D. Keth]

I am, and I have, and you are right (about Catholic schools; I know nothing of other religoius schools).

But I did get a heartly laugh from Christopher's comment. It was just too funny!

I'm glad somebody laughed. It was a joke. To say that seriously might be construed as a bannable political or religious comment.

[Andrew]

I tell them the camera is from Australia...

now it makes sense... I was wondering why the images were the right way up down here !!!

[Heroique]

I tell them the camera is from Australia...

Oh, great – Now I’m curious what cameras manufactured on the equatorial line would do.

[Roger Cole]

I think it's interesting the way we (or at least I; but assuming any view camera user) don't even notice the upside-down image when focusing. I have to think about it and consciously look for it to realize it anymore. I wonder if our brain learns to automatically invert the image after awhile, similar to the way it does with our normal vision?

I certainly still notice it. It doesn't bother me, and didn't after about the first 20 shots, but I notice. In fact I think it's often an advantage to composition as it helps to abstract what you see and lessen fixation on just the primary subject.

I think things like explaining how the light rays from the top of the image pass through the center of the lens to strike the bottom and vice versa, "as if pivoting about the center of the lens" or whatever, are just going to lose most people. I can see my wife rolling her eyes now, and she's quite intelligent, but quite impatient with my explanations of anything technical as, almost always, far more information than she cares about or is willing to bother thinking about (on technical things - literature we tend to be the opposite, I love a good story but don't try to make too much out of it.) I think strangers would be worse. Just tell them that all lenses invert images, and in things like binoculars there are additional lenses that invert the image AGAIN just so we see it properly, but the camera has no such extra lenses. The image on the film is always inverted too, but we don't notice because we just automatically turn the print the right way up, and in digital our software automatically re-orients it for us.

[E. von Hoegh]

Oh, great – Now I’m curious what cameras manufactured on the equatorial line would do.

The image twirls around.

[BrianShaw]

The image twirls around.

Many Petzvals appear to come from the equatorial region.

[Preston]

Actually, half of the image would rotate counter clockwise, and the other half would rotate clockwise. We could call it the Coriolis Camera. :-)

--P

[Jerry Bodine]

Oh, great – Now I’m curious what cameras manufactured on the equatorial line would do.

Yeah, it'd spin.
But this raises an off-topic question: A compass needle used at the equator would spin? And if so, does this mean a compass used in the southern hemisphere would require those topo maps to be re-done so as to rely on true magnetic south?

[E. von Hoegh]

Yeah, it'd spin.
But this raises an off-topic question: A compass needle used at the equator would spin? And if so, does this mean a compass used in the southern hemisphere would require those topo maps to be re-done so as to rely on true magnetic south?

A compass used at the equator or southern hemisphere would function as always, that is the needle would align with the local magnetic field pointing north and south, unless there was a strong anomaly nearby.

Now, a toilet used on the equator doesn't work. All toilets are placed just a bit north or south of the line for this reason.

[Heroique]

Actually, half of the image would rotate counter clockwise, and the other half would rotate clockwise. We could call it the Coriolis Camera. :-)

Preston, thanks for your clear explanation, but it just doesn’t help me with my future purchase plans.

If the earth’s magnetic field reverses – as it periodically has in the past – what would the camera do?

Would it stay the same, or would I need to buy another camera?

[E. von Hoegh]

Preston, thanks for your clear explanation, but it just doesn’t help me with my future purchase plans.

If the earth’s magnetic field reverses – as it periodically has in the past – what would the camera do?

Would it also change, or would I need to buy another camera?

You're confusing coriolis forces with the magnetic field.

[Heroique]

You're confusing coriolis forces with the magnetic field.

Sheesh – doesn’t anyone read profiles?

My Tachi is from Japan, which is well north of the equator.

It’s a magnetic field issue, not a Coriolis one.

[Keith Fleming]

My experience with the "It's upside down" statement went a bit further. The man asked what I was shooting, and I said black and white film. He took another look at the ground glass and replied, "But this is in color!"

Keith

[Preston]

Now, a toilet used on the equator doesn't work. All toilets are placed just a bit north or south of the line for this reason.

If you flush a toilet south of the equator, the brown trout would rotate clockwise. If you flush a toilet north of the equator, the brown trout would rotate counter-clockwise. Since the Coriolis Effect sums to zero directly over the equator, the brown trout would not rotate at all; they would be very confused.

A compass on the equator would continue to point to Magnetic North, and, since toilets are not affected by the geomagnetic field, they would still work.

:D

--P

[E. von Hoegh]

Sheesh – doesn’t anyone read profiles?

My Tachi is from Japan, which is well north of the equator.

It’s a magnetic field issue, not a Coriolis one.

Your Tachi is made of ... WOOD!

Is it ironwood?

[E. von Hoegh]

If you flush a toilet south of the equator, the brown trout would rotate clockwise. If you flush a toilet north of the equator, the brown trout would rotate counter-clockwise. Since the Coriolis Effect sums to zero directly over the equator, the brown trout would not rotate at all; they would be very confused.

A compass on the equator would continue to point to Magnetic North, and, since toilets are not affected by the geomagnetic field, they would still work.

:D

--P

Sometimes the trout need to rotate until they find their way to the exit. Therefore equatorial toilets are unreliable. Q.E.D..

[cyrus]

I wouldn't judge too harshly the fellow who thought the film should come out in color -- Niepce himself was surprised that his photo didn't.

A compass at the equator would still point north because the needle of a compass is magneticly positive and therefore points to the negatively-charged north pole of the earth.

Another bit of trivia: the earth spins about 1030 miles/mph at the equator. Miami spins at 940mph and London at 652mph.

[E. von Hoegh]

I wouldn't judge too harshly the fellow who thought the film should come out in color -- Niepce himself was surprised that his photo didn't.

A compass at the equator would still point north because the needle of a compass is magneticly positive and therefore points to the negatively-charged north pole of the earth.

Another bit of trivia: the earth spins about 1030 miles/mph at the equator. Miami spins at 940mph and London at 652mph.

Yet more trivia: At the geographic North Pole the compass needle will point south.

[Len Middleton]

How about my Deardorff was built by their Australian subsidiary and later imported, and thus the ground glass is calibrated for the Australian home market...

[E. von Hoegh]

How about my Deardorff was built by their Australian subsidiary and later imported, and thus the ground glass is calibrated for the Australian home market...
No no. The Australian subsidiary used self-calibrating GG. It works everywhere, just like Foster's

[Len Middleton]

No no. The Australian subsidiary used self-calibrating GG. It works everywhere, just like Foster's

Only on the upscale version...

For the base version, the calibration was locked in. As a good frugal Canadian, I of course got the base version...

[E. von Hoegh]

Only on the upscale version...

For the base version, the calibration was locked in. As a good frugal Canadian, I of course got the base version...

In that case just turn the GG upside down. They have reversible backs, right? :)

[Roger Cole]

I think it's interesting the way we (or at least I; but assuming any view camera user) don't even notice the upside-down image when focusing. I have to think about it and consciously look for it to realize it anymore. I wonder if our brain learns to automatically invert the image after awhile, similar to the way it does with our normal vision?


They teach science in Catholic schools?


Your Tachi is made of ... WOOD!

Is it ironwood?

And therefore it's a witch.


Yet more trivia: At the geographic North Pole the compass needle will point south.

Well yes, of course. I think I could easily manage to point south without a compass if I were standing at the geographic north pole. ;)

[E. von Hoegh]

Well yes, of course. I think I could easily manage to point south without a compass if I were standing at the geographic north pole. ;)

But what many do not know is that the geographic pole and the magnetic pole are hundreds of miles apart.

[Preston]

But what many do not know is that the geographic pole and the magnetic pole are hundreds of miles apart.

I knew that! :D The axis of the geomagnetic poles are inclined with respect to the axis of the geographic poles. If you look at a USGS topographic map, near the bottom-left is a diagram that shows the 'declination' in degrees between true north and magnetic north. For example, the declination for the Mount Whitney quadrangle, in CA, is 16 degrees east of true north.

In these days of electronic GPS, most people don't give this a second thought, but if one still uses a map and magnetic compass to navigate, the concept has very real consequences.

--P

[Heroique]

...if one still uses a map and magnetic compass to navigate, the concept has very real consequences.

This is indeed important knowledge for magnetic compass-carrying landscapers, and I’ll just add a related observation I learned the hard way – namely, that navigating through the magnetically-charged volcanic fields in my region has very real (and terrifying) consequences on my magnetic compass – but happily, not on the sun, moon, and stars, and as a last resort, intuition. :D

[Heroique]

I knew that! :D The axis of the geomagnetic poles are inclined with respect to the axis of the geographic poles...

I think most LF photographers know the two axes are inclined w/ respect to each other (but I’ve also been known to over-estimate the intelligence of our dedicated and passionate crowd, including my own).

What I think most LF photographers might not know is that if one draws a line from the north magnetic pole to the south magnetic pole, the line wouldn’t go through the geometric center of the earth.

This causes all sorts of confusion about how the image is supposed to be oriented on the ground glass – whether you’re shooting in the Northern Hemisphere, Southern Hemisphere, or even on the equatorial line. And we haven’t even started on the E. or W. Hemispheres – or worse, on the Greenwich line – which makes our discussion up to now, as helpful as it has been, sound like child’s play.

Not to worry – if one is confused about all this, I recommend AA’s The Camera, which does a great job at explaining image management. Better, just get out and shoot. With practice, estimating where to place your image on the GG in relation to the earth’s magnetic field will come naturally.

[John Jarosz]

I never notice the upsidedown bit. The same is true of the taste of water from the ocean. After a while you don't notice that either.

And take it easy on the Catholic church. They finally admitted Galileo was right (about 20 years ago). So they believe in science too.(Eventually)

[Two23]

I sometimes tell people the camera was made in Australia, and sometimes I tell them I put the lens on upside down. It depends on my mood. They usually just say, "Oh."


Kent in SD

[E. von Hoegh]

I think most LF photographers know the two axes are inclined w/ respect to each other (but I’ve also been known to over-estimate the intelligence of our dedicated and passionate crowd, including my own).

What I think most LF photographers might not know is that if one draws a line from the north magnetic pole to the south magnetic pole, the line wouldn’t go through the geometric center of the earth.

This causes all sorts of confusion about how the image is supposed to be oriented on the ground glass – whether you’re shooting in the Northern Hemisphere, Southern Hemisphere, or even on the equatorial line. And we haven’t even started on the E. or W. Hemispheres – or worse, on the Greenwich line – which makes our discussion up to now, as helpful as it has been, sound like child’s play.

Not to worry – if one is confused about all this, I recommend AA’s The Camera, which does a great job at explaining image management. Better, just get out and shoot. With practice, estimating where to place your image on the GG in relation to the earth’s magnetic field will come naturally.

Well of course it wouldn't. You can draw a line only on a surface.

[BetterSense]

But what many do not know is that the geographic pole and the magnetic pole are hundreds of miles apart.

Even weirder, the magnetic pole moves around. This is why charts for air navigation have expiration dates (< 1 year if I recall).

[E. von Hoegh]

Even weirder, the magnetic pole moves around. This is why charts for air navigation have expiration dates (< 1 year if I recall).

Yes, I have USGS maps of different dates with declinations varying as much as 2 or 3 degrees for the same locale.

The spot where the Prime Meridian crosses the equator is the most troublesome to take pictures on.

[winterclock]

I usually explain that I learned to read upside down from watching my father read the paper, so I ordered a special camera to cope with my disability. Then I ask them to guess how many megapixels it is.

[Roger Cole]

Even weirder, the magnetic pole moves around. This is why charts for air navigation have expiration dates (< 1 year if I recall).

Well that's not the biggest reason, but it is one reason. The biggest reason is changes in airspace, frequencies, airports, navigation aids and obstructions depicted.

It is one reason though. Some of the airports I fly into have changed runway numbers since I started flying in 2006, just because of magnetic changes. (Runway numbers are based on the centerline's alignment to magnetic north to the nearest 10 degrees so, for example, runway 25 at my home field has a centerline with a magnetic course of 246 degrees. The opposite direction is runway 7, with an actual heading when aligned with the centerline of 66 degrees.

How long the charts are good for depends on the type of chart. VFR Sectionals are good approximately for six months. I just checked my current Atlanta sectional, and the effective dates are Aug 23 2012 to Mar 7, 2013.

[swmcl]

I tell them the camera is from Australia...

And I tell them the camera is from the US ... :-)

[ignatiusjk]

I tell them that there's no mirror to "flip" the image like on a 35mm.

[Steve Smith]

What? It's supposed to be upside down?

I've thrown away loads of cameras because I thought they were broken!!!


Steve.

[Roger Cole]

What? It's supposed to be upside down?

I've thrown away loads of cameras because I thought they were broken!!!


Steve.

Heck, even if they were, no need to throw 'em away. Just turn the CAMERA upside down, then the gg image will be right side up! :D

[Steve Smith]

Good idea. Just get a 1/4" thread put on the top.


Steve.