Sinar P Question. Which 8x10 Standard Bearer is more sturdy?

[John Fink Jr.]

My thanks in advance to all who contribute.

I have a 4x5 Sinar P and recently acquired an 8x10 changing kit.
I want to go for an actual 8x10 standard bearer which from my research will give me a bit more stability.
What is the general opinion on the available standard bearers for 8x10.

The Special Standard bearer, and the Heavy Duty standard bearer are the two I am aware of.
What are the differences? Is there a difference in geared movements vs non geared movements. Which is more stable with an 8x10 standard.

All details are appreciated.
I hope I have put forth these questions properly.

Thanks!!!

[Cletus]

Good luck finding one of these. Unless you want to pay more than the price of your whole camera for a new one from Sinar. I went through this with a Sinar F2 8x10 and still looking for the "Special Front Standard". Pretty scarce item in my experience.

[Amedeus]

+1

Hard to find ... Easier to find the camera at a lower price ...

I have both P and P2 8x10, both have different rear standards as there is a difference between metered back and standard back


Good luck finding one of these. Unless you want to pay more than the price of your whole camera for a new one from Sinar. I went through this with a Sinar F2 8x10 and still looking for the "Special Front Standard". Pretty scarce item in my experience.

[John Fink Jr.]

Thanks for the info. However, I would love to know the differences between the two (or three) rear 8x10 standard bearers.
I'm more interested in the technical differences as well as the rigidness of them.

[Hermes07]

Didn't realise there were two versions of the 8x10 rear standard bearer. I have 4 of the 8x10, heavy duty standard bearers (which can be identified by the "boxed-in" shift wheel and longer rise column).

There were general 4x5 front and rear standard bearers - I have seen these on 8x10s before but have no idea if they were assembled that way by Sinar or have been cobbled together since. There is also a special 8x10 front standard with greater rise.

The irony is that (in my experience at least) for 8x10, the generic standard is easily strong enough to hold the rear standard and back. The front is where you really want a special, beefed up standard to support the big, bulky 8x10 lenses with movements.

[John Fink Jr.]

To my understanding there is an "8x10 Special Standard bearer" that does not have geared movement for tilt or swing. The tilt is accomplished by releasing the lower lock which faces you from the back. The swing is accomplished by releasing a lock on the right side at the upper plate. I'm not sure about the others, but they most likely have geared movement for all possible movements like the 4x5 only the 8x10 has a T shape as opposed to the L shape of the 4x5. What I'm trying to find out is if the geared 8x10 Standard bearer (heavy version or otherwise) is as rigid as the 8x10 "Special Standard bearer". I have heard that the "Special Standard bearer" without the aforementioned geared movement might be more rigid and stable because of those missing gears.
If anyone has experience with both and would like to comment, please do!!

[John Fink Jr.]

Hermes07,
If you would be so kind and post a photo of the 8x10 heavy duty standard bearer, it would be greatly appreciated.

[John Fink Jr.]

Anyone?

[Hermes07]

I'll make a note to take a photo but my DSLRs and large format equipment are in separate studios, neither of which are anywhere near where I am at the moment.

Honestly, just get whatever version you can acquire in good condition and use it. I use my bearers for formats larger than 8x10 which is why I opted for all heavy-duty - if you're shooting 8x10, they're all plenty rigid.

[rdenney]

The Special Standard Bearer 433.52 provides a lower zero point for rise and fall on the rear standard, to help align the 8x10 frame with the front standard. It also offsets the shift movement so that the 8x10 frame will be more easily centered, compared to the normal Standard Bearer 433.51.

Near as I can tell from my Sinar literature, there is no difference in how the movements work--they are all geared alike.

And from the picture in my 90's copy of "Sinar--The Camera", the rear special bearer has the same movement range as the regular bearer, except that the movements are positioned more appropriately for the larger frame. The distance between the top of the scale and the shift slide is greater for the regular bearer, and the shift scale is positioned to be more centered over the rise scale and less centered over the monorail. The special front bearers do have more shift and rise/fall movements.

They do call the special bearer "heavy duty" in "The Sinar Code", but the pictures of them shown in the catalogs don't show them to be beefier in any noticeable way. That's unlike the rise columns in the F2 special front standard, which are noticeably thicker in addition to being longer.

Rick "whose Sinar literature happened to be handy" Denney

[John Fink Jr.]

Thank you for all the above info. Here is what confuses me. Was there an actual Special Standard bearer for the Sinar P specifically?
433.52.000 Special Standard bearer seems to be the listed for P2. That is what I'm told I have here. It has only geared movements for focusing and rise/fall. It has a lock on the upper plate for swing movements that are not geared and the tilt movements are also a lock release with no geared movements. Here's a back and side view of it. Sorry for the blur and darkness.

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[Amedeus]

Not sure about this after seeing your images. P parts are clear anodized while P2, X, C and F parts are black anodized according to my Sinar documentation.

Appears to me your bearer is comprised of multiple series parts. I have both a P with non-metered back and a P2 with metered back, both 8x10 ... The bearers are geared and equally sturdy.

[Hermes07]

Well.. That is certainly not the 8x10 Heavy Duty that I use.

Never seen a bearer like that. I can see omitting the other gears to save weight or cost but it seems strange to do it for sturdiness.

[John Fink Jr.]

Thanks guys. Rudi I think you answered my question on sturdiness. I have the option to return this and I think I am going to.
By the way, this is some kind of 8x10 because it does line up properly, however it seems strange to me to not have the other gears. Why would they exclude them.
By the way, I was told that this is a 433.52.000 Special Standard bearer. You guys disagree right?

[John Fink Jr.]

Here's a few more images a bit more detailed.

842228422384224

[Jonathan Barlow]

This is from a Sinar Code brochure dated 1981 and shows the difference between the P "rear standard bearer" and the P "rear special standard bearer." The same movements are geared.

84230

[John Fink Jr.]

Thank you Jonathan. I couldn't find this info anywhere in my searches so far.
From what I understand about the standard in my pictures, it may be from 1986 onward.

[Jonathan Barlow]

Thanks guys. Rudi I think you answered my question on sturdiness. I have the option to return this and I think I am going to.
By the way, this is some kind of 8x10 because it does line up properly, however it seems strange to me to not have the other gears. Why would they exclude them.
By the way, I was told that this is a 433.52.000 Special Standard bearer. You guys disagree right?



This is from a Sinar Code brochure dated 1985 and shows the P2 "rear standard bearer" 433.51 and "rear special standard bearer" 433.52. What you have does not look like part 433.52 and is not for the P2.


84249

[Jonathan Barlow]

Thank you Jonathan. I couldn't find this info anywhere in my searches so far.
From what I understand about the standard in my pictures, it may be from 1986 onward.


Was the P still being made in 1986?

[John Fink Jr.]

Jonathan, I can't thank you enough!!!! This indicates that what I have here is not a 433.52 at all!!

Thank you so much to everyone who helped me out on this!!!
Feel free to add to this if you can.

[John Fink Jr.]

I'm not sure if it was and that's obviously where the confusion lay regarding info I was given.
Plus I couldn't figure why they would exclude the geared movements on this standard.

[erie patsellis]

The special standard was designed specifically for copy/repro work, going from memory.

[rdenney]

What you have does not have the expected shift scale at all, and the rise scale is in the 433.21 (or the P2 version 433.51, which is mostly the same except for color). All the knobs and scale markings on yours are from the P/F era. I cannot explain why the top part is black, but it sure seems to be the older type. The scale graphics and knob styles changed significantly when they switched to the P2/F2 models, in addition to going all-black. Except for the knobs and scales, though, the mechanical differences are more subtle.

I think you'll have a hard time dating it except by comparing small details with the date that the designs for those details changed, which requires quite a lot of digging in the service manuals.

I wonder if this is some special one-off version intended for a specific application.

Rick "who wouldn't want to carry P weight without having all the P geared movements" Denney

[John Fink Jr.]

Thanks Rick. And I agree on your last quote there. I am returning it and going with all the P geared movements.
Live and learn (although I admit to having asked for a P 8x10 special standard bearer and got the above standard sent to me.
This time it'll be the 433.22.

I want to thank everyone for this fine education.

[dspellman]

I'll go dig mine out in the next few days. I have P gear, not P2. The 8x10 P standard I have has a different zero point than the usual 4x5 P standard (lower). That allows the center of the 8x10 to more easily line up with the front P standard. There may have been a specific 8x10 P *front* standard as well (I don't have one and have never seen one in person) that also has a rejiggered zero point. My 8x10 kit just has the 8x10 frame, ground glass setup and the 8x10 specific standard, all in clear anodizing.

One comment about black anodizing vs. clear anodizing. The P "Anniversary" model was black anodized and specifically designated and numbered (I have one), but has otherwise standard P configuration, which is different from the P2 configuration. It's possible that there's a bit of mix and match going on with one fellow's bits and pieces there...

[John Fink Jr.]

If possible, Ii would be great to have a picture of your 8x10 P rear standard bearer, when you dig it out.
The standard on the left is what I am using now (although both are the same).

85115

[Armin Seeholzer]

Hi John

This is the strong P 8x10 bearer what you show us now.
The other was a not original Sinar bearer because the bearer is black or anodizing but newer booth and it could be parts from a Repro Sinar and machinist did put 2 different parts together.

Cheers Armin

[Adamphotoman]

Sorry,
I came upon this thread a little late.
I actually have one of the pieces you are talking about. And it is for sale. Also wide angle bellows...

The difference is more that the weight is centred and not off set. That is where the strength comes from...

Some movements are slightly more restricted but both the front and rear need less extensions.

Grant aka adamphotoman

[John Fink Jr.]

Thank you Grant and Armin.
This has all been very helpful and I'm glad to say I ended with the correct standard bearer.
I wanted the heavy duty 8x10 standard bearer.

Does anyone know where I can find a bubble level kit for this standard bearer. I need the inside holder and screws as well as the level.
I still need to contact Sinar. Has anyone dealt with them recently for such a part?