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vvplem
21-Nov-2012, 09:44
Hello,

I am looking for some advice on buying my first large format camera. It will be 8x10 since I aim at contact printing and alt processing. Price matters but is not my main concern as I am more interested in making the right long term investment.
What I am looking for is a versatile camera that will mainly be used in the studio but I still would like to carry it around easily if need be. So I am definitely more inclined toward a folding camera.
Main subject of interest will be portraits, nudes, still lives (but not commercial work that require a lot of twisting of the bellow), as well as eventually some landscapes and cityscapes. And I will be doing 1:1 close ups, so I would need a system that doesn't make it to complicated or annoying to fine tune.
I would mostly use a normal lens but I don't want to cut myself from the possibility of using wider or longer lenses.
The possibility to change bellows would be important, I think...
How easy it would be to adapt the back of the camera (not damaging it) for use with tin plates will be important as well.
This will be my first LF camera so a "friendly" system would be nice :).
Also, if lenses will probably be second hand, I would rather buy a new camera. After wasting WAY too much time, nerves and money in the hell of ebay and other second hand equipment reseller crooks, I don't want to take that chance with such a cumbersome and expensive piece of equipment.
And last but not least, I have no clue if I should choose wood or metal. From what I read, and for personal aesthetic reasons I tend to prefer metal, but my opinion is very poorly argued.
After some research a few cameras got my attention:
1. Toyo 810 MII
Up to now this would be my main choice in spite of the weight, simply because it seems to be the most versatile choice I could find. And versatility is what I'm looking for. I would love some opinion on how smooth or not the camera knobs and controls are, and how easy it would be to do some 1:1 close up work. And how generous/sufficient movements are.
2. Shen Hao FCL 810 A
Less sexy but way cheeper, lots of movements, and the camera seller here in Paris says it's great... What I don't like is that controls seems pretty rough but it's hard for me to judge...
3. A Canham
Basically the metal one is so light and soooo beautiful. But I don't like what I've read about it so far. Almost no back movements, and apparently not very sturdy and the knobs are kind of loose.
The 8x10 lightweight field camera seems like a more elegant version of the Shen Hao but according to the camera shop with less features and a much higher price. And I guess it would have the same looseness as the metal one... Any comment on this would be nice.

I would really appreciate any direct experience with any of these models, recommendations or suggestions about others.

Thank you very much for your time!

Vania

Gem Singer
21-Nov-2012, 09:59
The Canham Traditional 8x10 (not the lightweight) is actually a metal camera that folds into a beautiful walnut wood box. Best of both worlds.

Has metal rails and uses Sinar metal lens boards. Solid as a rock.

I have owned the Canham all metal JMC810 as well as the Traditional 8x10. Prefer the Traditional.

E. von Hoegh
21-Nov-2012, 09:59
Get a used Deardorff in decent condition. It has 30" of bellows and all the movements you'll ever need, as well as a historical cachet that will allow you to sell it on and at least get your money back, possibly make a profit.

John Kasaian
21-Nov-2012, 10:03
Get a good used Deardorff. Look around for one under $1500 and it'll be cheaper and (ah-hem) better than any of the others your looking at (pardon me while I duck and take cover!) The Kodak Masterviews and Century Universals are also swell cameras, as is the Agfa/Ansco Unversal, but that one is a little more bulky for packing in the field--of course that didn't slow down Ansel Adams!.

Gem Singer
21-Nov-2012, 10:11
"I would rather buy a new camera".

E. von Hoegh
21-Nov-2012, 10:13
"I would rather buy a new camera".

Yes, we're trying to talk him out of that so he can save money and get a better camera in the bargain.

Gem Singer
21-Nov-2012, 10:18
Saving money doesn't appear to be his first concern. Purchasing a used Deardorf is a gamble.

Also, the OP states that he "prefers a metal camera".

E. von Hoegh
21-Nov-2012, 10:24
Saving money doesn't appear to be his first concern. Purchasing a used Deardorf is a gamble.

Also, the OP states that he "prefers a metal camera".

He doesn't know what he prefers until he's had one and used it for a while.

"I am looking for some advice on buying my first large format camera. It will be 8x10 since I aim at contact printing and alt processing".

vvplem
21-Nov-2012, 10:30
Thanks. It's interesting that Deardorff should pop up as there is an option for a new one (for the time being, and due to systematically horrible past experiences, I'd rather stick to new...). The reason why I excluded this option is that it appeared to me to be more of a collector's item than a camera that would fit my bill : No possibility to change the bellow and according to the reseller only a limited array of lens can be used and wide angle would be a problem. Also, still according to him, there are almost no back movements compare to the Toyo or Shen Hao. In short he was saying that if it's a beautiful piece of equipment it's technically inferior and more expensive that a Shen Hao... I'm in a very annoying position in the sense that since I have no experience in LF, it is hard for me to judge what movements I would need or miss. It doesn't feel like I would need much but I don't want to end up missing some... So I'm in a kind of better safe than sorry attitude right now. But again maybe I shouldn't. On the other hand the camera is such a piece of art in itself!
Any comment from users on a recent V8 model? Especially considering smoothness and precision of movements.
Thanks!
V.

E. von Hoegh
21-Nov-2012, 10:35
What sort of pictures do you plan on making?
My V8 was made in 1950, it is smooth and precise. It has, as I said, all the movements you will ever need - unless you are doing architectural work; for that get a monorail.

vvplem
21-Nov-2012, 10:59
No architecture for sure. But the point of LF for me is to stay creative and experiment. It's hard to be more precise than in my original post because I'm not looking to limit myself to one type of picture and what I'm looking for is a versatile tool to experiment. 1:1 close ups with some comfortable working distance from the subject is something I will do for sure. I also would like to have fun with some old WA lens with lots of distortion and 100mm seems a bit long...
Again Deardorff seems to me as the best choice for the most beautiful camera (and I'm very sensitive to that) but not necessarily the best tool...

vvplem
21-Nov-2012, 11:18
Gem, thanks for your answer. Could I please ask you to specify what you like dislike about the Canhams? The traditional seems like a very interesting choice how do you feel about smoothness of operation and movement possibilities overall? Thanks!

E. von Hoegh
21-Nov-2012, 11:20
A 100mm lens with movements is going to be a problem on any folding 8x10 and most monorails (unless you use a bag bellows). Straight-on, that is using no movements, most cameras will accept a 100mm lens - some might need a recessed lensboard.
A 300mm lens will give you 1:1 at a 2 foot lens to subject distance and a two foot bellows extension.

Have you looked at the homepage of this site? There's a link in the upper left of the screen just below "What's New?".

georgl
21-Nov-2012, 11:21
Switched from Sinar F to a Canham - never looked back. It's not less sturdy than the Chinese wood cameras but better built. Ebony and high-end-metal studio cameras might be better but heavier and expensive.
Deardorff depends on condition - many used ones are ruined by unprofessional repairs.

What annoys me with older cameras (Deardorff or my Sinar F) are the ridiculously dim groundglasses! You have to replace them! How can you work with that? You can barely see anything in daylight at f5.6! The Canham (or other modern screens) is easily 5 or 6 stops brighter!

I've handled various Shen Haos on PK - in no way comparable to an Ebony - you get what you pay for...

E. von Hoegh
21-Nov-2012, 11:26
Switched from Sinar F to a Canham - never looked back. It's not less sturdy than the Chinese wood cameras but better built. Ebony and high-end-metal studio cameras might be better but heavier and expensive.
Deardorff depends on condition - many used ones are ruined by unprofessional repairs.

What annoys me with older cameras (Deardorff or my Sinar F) are the ridiculously dim groundglasses! You have to replace them! How can you work with that? You can barely see anything in daylight at f5.6! The Canham (or other modern screens) is easily 5 or 6 stops brighter!

I've handled various Shen Haos on PK - in no way comparable to an Ebony - you get what you pay for...

I use something called a "darkcloth" and the original Deardorff GG. I use no fresnel or other gadgets. I can focus comfortably a f:9.5 Artar in fair light, and I can focus all my other lenses at the working aperture of 16 or 22.

Bill_1856
21-Nov-2012, 11:40
I recommend that you buy a used 4x5 camera (such as the Tachihara orShen Hao) from a dealer such as KEH or Midwest Photo, with a "standard" 150mm (or 135mm or 180mm) lens, and a couple of film holders. Use it for 3 months, then if you're still in the mood for an 8x10 you can discover what is really important to you, and will be able to resell it for little or no loss.
There's no substitute for personal experience -- 90% of the advice you'll get on a forum is shear opinion, and worth exactly what you pay. (That includes advice from me.)

E. von Hoegh
21-Nov-2012, 11:42
I recommend that you buy a used 4x5 camera (such as the Tachihara orShen Hao) from a dealer such as KEH or Midwest Photo, with a "standard" 150mm (or 135mm or 180mm) lens, and a couple of film holders. Use it for 3 months, then if you're still in the mood for an 8x10 you can discover what is really important to you, and will be able to resell it for little or no loss.
There's no substitute for personal experience -- 90% of the advice you'll get on a forum is shear opinion, and worth exactly what you pay. (That includes advice from me.)

This, actually, is better advice than my advice to get a 'dorff.

Cletus
21-Nov-2012, 12:08
I'll chime in too, on the sensible advice to work with 4x5 for a bit first. It's fairly inexpensive to get started in and most of the accoutrements, with the exception of film holders and possibly lenses, will carry over to the larger format. I know you want a folding field, but you could get into a 4x5 Sinar F system for a few hundred bucks, or a Cambo for even less and thus, answer all your own questions (better then anyone here could do, by experiencing it yourself) about movements and what's important for the way you work. A Sinar 4x5 is almost as lightweight and compact as a field camera and has pretty much ALL movements available for a view camera. I've been down the exact road you plan to take, BTW...

With that said, I recently picked up a brand new Shen Hao FCL810-A and it's truly a beautiful camera. There's nothing cheap or 'Chinese' about it and believe me, I was looking! All of the controls, knobs, focusing rack, etc., are buttery smooth and perfect and while I've not personally fondled an Ebony, I can't imagine there would be a big difference. Movements are ample, but it's still a folding field, so back movements are somewhat limited, but front makes up for much of it.

It was a very close call between the Shen Hao and the Chamonix for me, but ultimately the Shen Hao won out on price and with a few more features than the Chamonix. I also have a Sinar F 8x10, which obviously has more movements, but I haven't used it once since I got the Shen Hao.

Last thing - if you ever handled the Shen Hao 4x5 field, the HZX IIA or whatever, the one with the black hardware, which was my old camera. It was also of good quality and build, but nowhere near the FCL810. I was pleasantly surprised at how much more attention to detail and finish and hardware the 8x10 is. Highly recommended camera!

Ari
21-Nov-2012, 12:13
Better still, ask your friendly camera store for a rental; try a few cameras and decide from there.

I'm thinking of going back into 8x10, for reasons similar to yours.
A Kodak Master View is the camera I'm considering because it is metal, has plenty of movements, and folds up nicely.
I will likely borrow a friend's this coming week for a test drive.
The only drawback to the KMV is its price; a decent specimen will run easily over $1000, so I may have to settle for something else.

vvplem
21-Nov-2012, 12:19
Thank you for the advice about 4x5, I appreciate what you mean, but I know that much that the projects I have in mind will be in 8x10 and don't feel like wasting time and money on a 4x5. Celtus and georgl thanks! it's exactly what I'm looking for, personal experience with the cameras I've mentioned. Thank you again E. for your comments on close ups and WA I clearly don't think LF yet so that helps!

Oren Grad
21-Nov-2012, 12:40
I am looking for some advice on buying my first large format camera. It will be 8x10 since I aim at contact printing and alt processing. Price matters but is not my main concern as I am more interested in making the right long term investment.

The odds that you'll get the "right" camera for yourself for the long run on your first purchase are slim. No matter how much advice you get, you won't know what suits you until you start trying cameras for yourself. And I don't mean fiddling in a store somewhere, I mean actually using them to make pictures for a while.

By all means, get advice to learn about the different options that are available and to rule out any cameras that are grossly unsuited to what you want to do. Beyond that, though, just buy something and dive in. BTW, the likelihood that you'll eventually want a different camera is a good reason to buy second-hand, so you'll avoid the depreciation that comes with being the first one to resell a camera originally bought new.

FWIW, I started in LF with 8x10. I think contact prints are magic. If that's what you want, and if you can afford it, don't feel obliged to use 4x5 first. Life is too short.

Gem Singer
21-Nov-2012, 12:58
vvplem,

I can think of nothing I dislike about KB Canham cameras. They are a bit pricey. However, as stated, "you get what you pay for".

Have owned/operated every type of 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 camera that Keith Canham has offered since 1991. Still own an all-metal MQC57.

As I stated, I prefer the Traditional 8x10. It's good looking and seems more solid than the all-metal 8x10.

Has all the movements you will ever need on both the front and rear, easy to operate, and locks down solid.

Lachlan 717
21-Nov-2012, 13:07
There is also the Shen Hao HZX810 (that you can get direct from the Maker if your local Dealer doesn't carry it).

It's their premium 8x10 camera.

Greg Y
21-Nov-2012, 13:12
Another admirer of the Deardorff. I had an Ebony 45, a Canham 57 trad, before finding my 5x7 1938 Deardorff. Then added a 8x10 Canham trad...before trying & buying a Deardorff 8x10.... it is the '57 Chevy of field cameras. I love the way they handle. You need to find something that feels good under your hands while you're under the dark cloth. Good luck with the journey.

Lachlan 717
21-Nov-2012, 14:45
before trying & buying a Deardorff 8x10.... it is the '57 Chevy of field cameras. I love the way they handle.

I hope that you're referring to the Deardorff's handling, because the Chevy corners like a dog on wet tiles!

E. von Hoegh
21-Nov-2012, 14:49
I hope that you're referring to the Deardorff's handling, because the Chevy corners like a dog on wet tiles!

Hah! "Terminal understeer" was the way I hard it.

William Whitaker
21-Nov-2012, 18:21
There's no substitute for personal experience -- 90% of the advice you'll get on a forum is shear opinion, and worth exactly what you pay. (That includes advice from me.)

+1

I have my own preferences after going through many iterations of 8x10 cameras. It's not as simple as it seems; you have to figure out what's right for you. And that might change between now and next month.

For me, it wasn't finding the "Cinderella camera" as much as it was finding the "Lay's Potato Chip camera": I couldn't settle on just one! So I have a Sinar Norma, a Kodak Master (modified) and an old, but lovely Ansco.
Just a warning... :)

SMBooth
21-Nov-2012, 19:16
Get a Burke & James first, then its all going forward from there... :)

Jim Andrada
21-Nov-2012, 20:54
The first thing I did years ago was rent a beat up Linhof Technika and fool around with it for a week or two. Next step was to buy a 5 x 7 Linhof Kardan Bi, Fast forward to a couple of years ago and I bought an 8 x 10 Seneca and an 8 x 10 Kardan Bi. Guess which one I carry around more?

Yup, the Seneca with few movements.

mandoman7
21-Nov-2012, 21:32
It's really hard to know what you want until you've worked with one. The advice of others is never quite enough. In spite of what you've heard, Deardorff s are ubiquitous for one reason. They are well built and the design is very effective (that's two actually). One feature not often mentioned is the ease with which you can go from very wide to very long without adding parts or re attaching front standards, as is the case with some on your list. This, to me, is more significant than the amount rear swing as I often go from very wide to tele's in the field. The point being, reading the specs and various forum posts won't be as effective as getting your feet wet with some modest priced older cameras.

jeroldharter
21-Nov-2012, 22:36
The Toyo field is a nice camera, a real tank and rock solid. But it weighs about 13 pounds and the bellows is relatively short making 1:1 or macro shots potentially difficult.

Check out the Ritter. It has a long bellows, plenty of room for movements, is the lightest weight 8x10 available AFAIK, and it has asymmetrical rear swing which is a great feature few other cameras have. Were I in the market, Ritter I would buy.

patrickjames
23-Nov-2012, 09:55
I won't suggest a particular camera to you (although I think Canham cameras are pretty damn good and Keith is a nice guy) but I will suggest that you need to look at what you want to use it for and go from there. For example, I have been thinking of a new 4x5 and I know I want to be able to use long lenses on it. That one fact alone eliminates almost all of the 4x5 cameras out there. In your case it seems that short lenses will be an issue so how usable a camera is with those lenses will be the deciding factor. I have found that a lot of movement seems important to most newcomers but you will never twist a camera into a pretzel when making a picture. Most pictures require very little movement at all. Lastly, the things we regret in life are the things that we don't do, so I would suggest that you spring for the camera that you feel is the best for you as long as you can afford it. Life is short.

Len Middleton
23-Nov-2012, 11:15
You might want to consider further Will's comment on no Cinderella camera.

It might be more effective to purchase a good used 8x10 monorail for your studio work and after using that and getting a better understanding upon what you is important particularly movement, then consider your 8x10 field camera purchase.

By all means feel free to purchase a new camera, it increases the supply of used ones later... :D

You may find that lenses will be the bigger purchase overall.

Good luck with whatever approach you take,

Len

James B. McCourtney
25-Nov-2012, 05:10
You might want to consider a Precision Gandolfi - they're robust, easy to work with - and, most importantly - affordable. Good luck on your choice.


84199

John Kasaian
25-Nov-2012, 15:34
Get a 'dorff, man. Get a 'dorff.

Noah A
26-Nov-2012, 07:37
Normally I'd do what others have done and suggest you start with 4x5. But for contact prints and alternative processes, then 8x10 makes sense.

I now shoot 4x5, but I started with 8x10 and my first camera was a Canham metal JMC. I don't have many nice things to say about it other than that it's very compact and lightweight. I found it to be very lacking in rigidity and it was fiddly to set up. Some people swear by them, but they're not for everyone. It really is a matter of personal preference.

I planned to switch to a Toyo 810MII, until I saw one in person. That thing is rock solid, but it's huge and heavy.

I eventually ended up with an Arca Swiss F-Metric. It was a wonderful camera. It's pricey, but it can do whatever you need. While it's not a folding camera in the traditional sense, both standards can be moved onto a short section of rail and the result is very compact and lightweight. The camera is lightweight, but amazingly solid and precise. If you can handle the price, you won't be disappointed.

suebrownimages
15-Dec-2012, 15:29
I'm also in the market for my first 8 x 10 bellows camera and was wondering what shooters had to say about Black Art Woodcraft cameras? I was thinking of purchasing The Ross 8x10 Field Camera, but I haven't seen much on the forum about newer cameras. I was also wondering if anyone had suggestions on where to find the best lenses for such a camera?

I'm open to all suggestions, price isn't really an issue.

I'm a Digital Photography major in Whitby, Ontario, Canada and I'm really wanting to focus on wet plates following graduation in April. I'm wondering if anyone on the forum practices in Ontario? I'd really like to find a long-term mentor, not only in a workshop setting. (It has been a challenge to find anyone in my area, to say the least).

ignatiusjk
15-Dec-2012, 19:00
If this is your first LF camera my question is why are you jumping up to 8x10.Why not start with a 4x5 field camera and see how that goes. You can get 8x10 field camera for a decent price.Try Ebay I've found some decent 8x10's there.

Jonathan Barlow
16-Dec-2012, 00:36
I have an all-metal Canham 8x10, a Deardorff 8x10 (1952 military V8), and a Sinar P2 8x10. They're all neat cameras and a lot of fun to use. I obviously wouldn't want to carry the Sinar in the field if I could help it.

suebrownimages
16-Dec-2012, 10:30
Thank you for the speedy replies!

I agree with you, ignatiusjk, about starting with a 4x5...I purchased a Arca-Swiss 4x5 rail view camera w/Rodenstock Sironar 210mm lens late last night from Ottawa. And I have a feeling that a Deardorff is in the future.

I was still wondering, though, if anyone had any opinions on the Black Art Woodcraft cameras?

Roger Thoms
16-Dec-2012, 11:11
The normal reccommendation seems to be start with 4x5. That's great if you want to shoot with 4x5. My girl friend on the other hand just started shooting large format, started with 5x7 and loves it. She finds the larger ground glass much easier to compose and focus, plus her interest is in contact printing not enlarging. So given the op's interest in contact printing and alternative processes 4x5 might not be the best way to go.

Roger

dap
16-Dec-2012, 18:47
I'll agree with Roger on this one. Normally I think 4x5 is the logical place to start...unless you are getting into large format in order to obtain large negatives to use when experimenting with historic printing processes. I think you will quickly feel limited by small 4x5 contact prints. Granted - you can always enlarge your negatives for contact printing, but it is a bit of a PITA. Personally I would opt for a 5x7 camera over a 4x5 in your situation. 5x7 contact prints, while still on the smaller side are much more fun to produce than 4x5 IMHO. Obviously 8x10 cameras will net you even more flexibility, but the camera itself comes with a significant size/weight/cost penalty ( a 5x7 camera is a bit bigger than a 4x5, but an 8x10 is absolutely huge when compared to a 4x5)

tim o'brien
16-Dec-2012, 20:56
Poisonally, I say stay away from old used Deardorffs. That will keep the price of those reasonable for those who value great engineering with durability and ease of use.

I think you should start with a 8x10. Just remember there is no going back. 4x5 just doesn't look right after you have perfected the development and contact printing of an 8x10.

I have a 1970s V-8 with 5x7 and 4x5 backs. What else do I need?

tim in san jose

Steven Tribe
18-Dec-2012, 06:04
Dear vvplem (I think we have had recent dealings on e*bay?) so I assume that you are based in France.

Whilst 8x10 is an admirable format, 18x24cm is, probably, better - and very European!

There are plenty of very solid, well made and attractive mahogany chambre de voyages available in Europe, superb film holders and BW white film available.
Multi-format use is possible with adapters that fit inside the book plate holders.