Good (used) 4x5 in 2012

[richardman]

Yes, I know these cameras have not changed much in the last 100 years :-)

Anyway, I am having so much fun with my Shenhao 617 that I am thinking about getting a 4x5.

Lightweight is important, but it also should be sturdy. The Shenhao PTB617 is only 1.5 kg. I doubt too many 4x5 are that light, but closest to that would be nice.

The Shenhao 617 locking mechanism can be .. better. Not sure whether their 4x5s are better in that regard or not.

I am not using too much movements yet. Mainly rise, but I am sure I want tilt. Folding is not important.

Bellow draw from 90mm to ~350mm is probably sufficient.

Cost is a consideration.

Recommendations? Thanks!

[RawheaD]

I'm currently really eyeing the Chamonix 045N-2, which is actually lighter than your Shenhao..at least, without the lens, at 1.38kg

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/45.html

[richardman]

Wow, that does look very good! Thanks!

[welly]

Maybe a Toyo 45AX/AII or CX? It's an amazing camera.

[sully75]

Chamonix 45n-2 is really amazing.

[hmf]

Canham DLC, which shows up with some regularity on the used market. Swings, tilts and shifts on the front and rear - you'll want most of those eventually. Reasonably lightweight, but sturdy. I've shot with lenses from 65mm - 450mm with the standard bellows.

People discuss issues with the lockdown and weak detents, but with care, wonderful photographs can made with this camera (just like most any other, frankly).

Finally, you'll be dealing with Keith Canham, who provides some of the best aftermarket care around.

[ImSoNegative]

why not the shen hao ptb45? they are very light.

[chassis]

Another vote for a Toyo 45A/AII. I have the AII and the more I use it the more I like it. It is solid, versatile, easy to use and gets the job done well. They come up for sale reasonably often, and have a nice array of accessories. Not the lightest camera, but also not the heaviest.

[gevalia]

Hey Richard,

We just had an email exchange this week about my interest in a 6x17 Shen Hao. Well, I'll throw my 2 cents in for the Chamonix 4x5. I had the 1st version until a mishap and have had the 2nd version for a few years now. For a field camera it fits the bill; light, folds compact. I use from 90mm to 305mm lenses. Like I mentioned to you in our emails, the front standard locking is adequate but can move when you try to attach filters after focusing. I now hold my filters infront on the lens. As for a studio camera, my Sinar F2 is just about perfect. I actually tried one winter to use it as my field camera but it's a bit too heavy and lanky for that unless you break it down in the backpack.

Okay, maybe that was 3 cents worth of opinions.

Welcome to 4x5.

Ron

[Preston]

Another vote for Chamonix 045N-2. I've had mine for about a year and consider it a bargain even if purchased new.

If you plan to use lenses longer than about 360mm, you will need the extension board (look under 'Accessories' on the Chamonix site). A new one costs $122.

I also used a Tachihara wood field 4x5 for many years. They are compact and light--about 3 lb.. They are not as rigid as the Chamonix or Canham, but are a nice camera. If you look at used ones, be sure the locking levers really lock things down as they tend to get a little sloppy after long use.

--P

[Lachlan 717]

I hate the rear standard swing movement/extension design on the Chamonix. Way too "agricultural" for me. YMMV.

[Freezer]

There's a 4x5 Canham for sale in the Classifieds now.

[Preston]

I hate the rear standard swing movement/extension design on the Chamonix. Way too "agricultural" for me. YMMV.

I haven't heard the word 'agricultural' used in reference to a camera. Just curious, but exactly what is your meaning, here.

I don't have any issues with the back swing, extension design. It took a little getting to after my Tachihara, but I find it quite versatile.

--P

[C4D]

How about the 4x5 version of your 617 the PTB 4x5?

I have the PTB 617 and the PTB 4x5 and love the combo of the two... both cameras are extremely similar in operation and the 4x5 is even lighter.

[Greg Y]

Chamonix makes a pretty fine camera. I had their 5x7 as a back up for my Deardorff....& am considering the 11x14 at the moment

[Ari]

If you ever think of going metal, a used Wista VX or RF is hard to beat, as is the Toyo mentioned in a previous reply.

[richardman]

The Canham sounds pretty good too, but since the Chamonix and the Shenhao both take the same Linhof lensboard I have already, I am definitely leaning toward them right now. I can then take both 617 and the 4x5 in the car and choose whichever camera I like to put in the pack with the same set of lens. (not sure if I ever want to hike with 2 cameras...)

Now to save up the $$.

Thanks!

[Peter De Smidt]

Another vote for a Toyo 45A/AII. I have the AII and the more I use it the more I like it. It is solid, versatile, easy to use and gets the job done well. They come up for sale reasonably often, and have a nice array of accessories. Not the lightest camera, but also not the heaviest.

+1, and the AX is also a great choice.

[Rick Rycroft]

I've got a Toyo 45AII L that takes the Linhof Tech boards. They are a bit rare but out there.

[Kuzano]

Well, I had the same reaction to the "Agricultural" comment, and the Chamonix does look a bit busy on the back end. So, applying creativity and intuitive reasoning, I concluded that the meaning is there is a bit too much BS on the back side. BS, as I see it, is a farm product, hence agricultural. ????? No judgement from here on the Chamonix, but I prefer to keep my camera budget under the prices of new Shen Hao and Chamonix. The Chamonix has not been around long enough to be available at reasonable used prices.

I bought an Excellent Tachihara two months ago for $375... no abuse no damage. I bought a near mint Shen Hao two months ago for $500. I have purchased in the last 3-4 years a few (half dozen) 45A and AII's for under $500. I bought a very nice Wista 45D for $400.

Every one of that camera's I listed will do all you need to do with a large format camera... hold a GG and a film holder on the rear, create a light tight box, and hold a lens on front, with a modicum of movements. The image results are the same for all of them, given the quality of the lens on the front.

My own user cameras are Super Graphics... none of the three I now have costing over $200. They get the job done.

[Corran]

Yeah, I keep seeing used prices for Chamonix 4x5's creeping UP, closer and closer to the new price! I paid less for the one I have, having never been used really, than some listings I've seen in damaged condition. Strange.

Perhaps they should ramp up their production and cut the prices a bit, they might just be on the wrong side of the curve of supply/demand.

[Kuzano]

Yeah, I keep seeing used prices for Chamonix 4x5's creeping UP, closer and closer to the new price! I paid less for the one I have, having never been used really, than some listings I've seen in damaged condition. Strange.

Perhaps they should ramp up their production and cut the prices a bit, they might just be on the wrong side of the curve of supply/demand.

That's a good part of the equation. However, I think demand is going up... high and fast. Many may see the film situation being a sort of "last chance" to get into LF. My experience in selling LF gear on eBay has been fast and furious. Prices are up, and most are not waiting out the auctions, but picking up my BIN prices. Those who peck away at the reserve to "blow out" my BIN prices, are watching the auction price go somewhat over the BIN. Crazy, but I don't mind. So many can't recognize a good or fair BIN when they see it. So let them eat cake and pay higher prices. It's simply business for me.

The other interesting aspect is that almost ALL of my LF sales are International... heavy emphasis on Federation of Russia and FSU countries. Some to the Pacific Rim. Hardly anybody is buying in the US. Could be not willing to step up to where the market is heading on prices. I just got a feedback on a Shen to Australia and the buyer was profusely ecstatic on his feedback.

[Corran]

Yep, lots of int'l sales here too.

[Lachlan 717]

I haven't heard the word 'agricultural' used in reference to a camera. Just curious, but exactly what is your meaning, here.

Meaning rudimentary. Rough. Lacking finesse.

[chuck94022]

Regarding Chamonix "busy-ness" on the back - having now owned one for a bit, I have come to appreciate its many features, especially the back "BS".

It has back tilt, but includes two little metal sliding latches that create a barrier precisely at the vertical. So it is dead simple to find that important position. Same with the front, two sliding metal latches lock the vertical plane. No guesswork, and can be done without even looking.

The back mechanism allows focusing via the back standard, which can be very useful when you are doing macro work. I also find it useful when doing normal focusing under the dark cloth. I can slide the back standard for gross focusing, and then use the knob for fine tuning the focus while looking through the loupe. And it is nice that the knob is self locking - once focused, it stays focused.

But more importantly, and it took me a while to learn this, the back standard can be slid quite far forward, by loosening the knobs located underneath the base plate. By moving the rear standard to its forward most position, and then mounting the front standard in the third hole, ultra wide angle lenses can be mounted with no fear that the base plate will be visible in the image.

The one thing missing from the Chamonix is an owner's manual. Using one is initially a voyage of discovery. But once mastered, it is a dream of a camera. It is extremely rigid, even when extended, supporting lenses >300mm without a hitch.

I loved my previous camera, a Wista, for its convenience - especially the ability to fold it with my 135mm lens mounted. Considering the features in totality, and the rigidity, beauty, and lightness of the Chamonix, I don't look back. (I still own the Wista, but haven't pulled it out recently).