Can you print [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Pfiltz

16-Nov-2012, 05:29

without having Filters?

So far, all I've successfully done to a certain point is being able to contact print. I'm waiting on my stronger lens so I can do some 8x10's.

I've been itching to use my enlarger [Omega D2], so I ordered some 8x10 paper to test drive. It's Arista EDU Pearl, which I now understand from FreeStyle is a VC paper. Are there papers that you can buy and/or use, that don't require filters in the enlarger? What 8x10 papers would you recommend for a new person starting out enlarging to use?

Since I have some of this paper, I'll be ordering a filter pkg from FreeStyle, but was just wondering about the whole paper / filter thing.

TIA

Michael Graves

16-Nov-2012, 05:50

VC paper printed without a filter tends to fall in the Grade 2 to Grade 2.5 contrast range if printed without filters. You can also purchased graded papers at Freestyle that range from 1 to 5 if you want to have several boxes available. So, yes. You can print without filters. Many people don't even like variable contrast paper and only use graded papers.

Pfiltz

16-Nov-2012, 06:02

chassis

16-Nov-2012, 06:17

I printed for years with no filters, so it is possible. However, my prints lacked the punch or snap I was looking for. I started printing with a grade 2 filter in the enlarger for all prints, as a starting point, and it made a world of difference. Now my workflow always includes a grade 2 filter as a starting point, then I change as needed. I use a Beseler 45V-XL enlarger with Ilford filters.

ImSoNegative

16-Nov-2012, 08:11

I usually print with grade 2 as well, if I used a uncoated lens for the shot then sometimes i print with a 3 or 3 1/2

Scott Walker

16-Nov-2012, 08:37

Thanks Michael..

I've been having problems just getting a test strip from this paper. When I spoke to the woman at FreeStyle, she asked what paper I had, and then she asked if I was using any filters. My answer was no, then we started in about the whole filter thing.

I really would like to just print from the negative without going all crazy. I'm trying to figure out why I can produce a contact strip but am struggling with just creating test strips on this other paper.

More or less trying to connect the dots in my head.

Thanks

As Michael pointed out the filters only control contrast and have nothing to do with whether or not you can make a print.
If you are having problems even making a test strip it could be something as simple as not not realizing that you need a whole lot more exposure time on an enlargement than a contact print.
This time differential can be huge especially if you were just using a light bulb turned on for 5 or 8 seconds with your timer.
Depending on your light source in the enlarger and how far your lens is stopped down you could easily have an exposure time of 45 seconds or more.

Pfiltz

16-Nov-2012, 09:01

Thanks folks...

Going back to square one this evening... ;)

bob carnie

16-Nov-2012, 10:37

I like VC papers , because I can purchase one box and with the filters adjust the contrast.

You can use VC paper with no filter as suggested in the second post. You will hit the wall very fast by printing that you will want to lower and increase contrast. This will happen sooner than you think.

so I suggest filters with VC paper to learn how to print.
Nothing wrong with graded papers other than needing at least 3 grades to move around a bit.

Drew Wiley

16-Nov-2012, 10:53

Once you get good at exposing and developing negs consistently, you can do almost everything on a single grade of paper, that is, if it has enough silver content to handle
variation in dev time or you have a selection of developers around for the final contrast tweaks. For a long time I only used #3 paper (mostly Seagull G back then). With today's high-quality VC papers you can do it either way.

ic-racer

16-Nov-2012, 13:26

Learn how to use multigrade paper. You will not easily be able to meter and process a piece of film reliably to get a 1/4 paper grade resolution for your previsualization. Whereas that resolution in the darkroom is easily obtained.

cyrus

16-Nov-2012, 14:10

I suppose theoretically you can control contrast by modifying the temp/agitation/concentration of developer but that would be REALLY REALLY harder compared to using variable contrast paper.
Using filters isn't "going all crazy" -- it is SOP.

Pfiltz

16-Nov-2012, 14:25

ic-racer

16-Nov-2012, 16:05

Appreciate all the info folks... I think I see where you guys are coming from... Got my new 135mm lens in today, but I'm awaiting this cone thing to come in so I can really play with the enlarger, -vs- contact prints.
Good that you found a cone. Finding the appropriate cone has be a major stumbling block for some Omega users.

Pfiltz

16-Nov-2012, 16:18

Ic.... I got one on the way with the great help of a forum member....

Andrew O'Neill

16-Nov-2012, 19:24

Do yourself a favour and get yourself some filters and print on VC paper. Way more control. If you don't want to go "all crazy", just get yourself two filters. A blue and a green. I split grade print this way often.

Emil Schildt

17-Nov-2012, 05:46

OR use liquid emulsion!

You can make the most fantastic papers this way - and much cheaper than the high quality ready made papers available...

Most LE's have fixed contrast (no filter use) BUT they are highly sensitive to different developers so you can in fact control most of your contrast using different developers (and you can even combine them).

I do this all the time - highly addictive!

Pfiltz

17-Nov-2012, 07:24

Guys, Guys, Guys... :cool:

Hold on... I just now got past contact prints... I have yet to get a good test strip from my Arista VC paper. Baby steps right now.

I do plan on getting a filter kit from FreeStyle on my next order.

Liquid emulsion? Down the road maybe...

I want to get 1 good 8x10 print first.

Have a great one.

Robert Langham

21-Nov-2012, 06:00

Print making involves not just getting the density, (light/dark) set correctly and the contrast, (graded paper or filters for multigrade papers), but also the cropping, paper color, (yep, even in black and white), and dodging and burning. Folks with experience have juggled these cats long enough that they tend to handle all this with some ease but it IS a very complex task. Just do the easy stuff first: f-stop, exposure in seconds on the timer, and then keep adding. I always tell my students that anything worth doing is worth doing badly.....at first. Just takes a while before you know what you are looking at. You'll be fine!

There is something quite striking about the expansion of visual consiousness that goes on when folks learn to "see" using a camera. Mind blowing without drugs, (though it does take a lot of dektol and HC110..) Lots of good help and experience in here. Enjoy the beginning!

84042

Bill Burk

21-Nov-2012, 09:53

I prefer single grade paper, but that is just for disclosure. My post here is not intended to encourage you down my path. I bet you don't want to stockpile 5 different boxes of paper.

I was frustrated going from "no filter" to "need a little more contrast". My problem was deciding the next step... "Do I go to number 2 1/2 filter or number 3 next?"

I think you can avoid at least some frustration if you get the multigraded filter set and always use it. Then you won't have to guess what the filter comes after "without a filter".

Then maybe it's a useful tip: Jump whole numbers when a print doesn't look right. You can decide later it needs to be "in-between" ... and then you will have somewhere to go.

bob carnie

21-Nov-2012, 10:43

Then maybe it's a useful tip: Jump whole numbers when a print doesn't look right. You can decide later it needs to be "in-between" ... and then you will have somewhere to go.

Good point Bill

Pfiltz

21-Nov-2012, 17:25

Thanks for all the info.

I FINALLY got my stronger lens so I can print. My enlarger is an Omega D2

My contrast filters are on there way.

I bought some paper from a fellow member here, [Ilford MGIV FB, Matt, 5x7 100 Box Sealed] . Tonight I did 5 test strips.

They were shot at 5 second exposures, developed in Arista Paper Developer for 1.5 minutes, stopped for 1 minute, fixed for 3 minutes.

First strip 5 sec @ f8 - Pretty dark
Second strip 5 sec @ f11 - Not a whole lot different. Some, but not much
Third strip 5 sec @ f16 - some improvement, whites still "greyish" not real white
Fourth strip 5 sec @ f22 - better, but whites not white yet
Fifth strip 5 sec @ f32 - getting close, but I still can't get the whites, white.

Agitation during development was the same on all strips too.

It's an image of a great looking old house.

I did some contact prints from this negative last week, on different paper. Formulax Contact paper, and it looks great.

The contact print of this negative is worlds apart from any of my test strips. Having said that, I haven't done a contact strip with the negative using this paper. Plan on doing that tomorrow.

Footnote: I think I understand what these contrast filters may do, but how will they help getting the whites in a negative, white on paper?

Any advice?

ic-racer

21-Nov-2012, 18:09

Fifth strip 5 sec @ f32 - getting close, but I still can't get the whites, white.

If you have the 150W bulb, try the 75W bulb. If you are already using the 75W bulb, get some ND material (about $6) from Rosco and set it on top of the condensers.

Pfiltz

21-Nov-2012, 18:22

If you have the 150W bulb, try the 75W bulb. If you are already using the 75W bulb, get some ND material (about $6) from Rosco and set it on top of the condensers.

Thanks. I do have a 35 watt light I can put in the Omega. Of course, that will mean longer exposure times possibly.

Bill Burk

21-Nov-2012, 23:23

I like to have exposure times around 15 to 30 seconds.

Make sure that if you just develop a sheet of the paper (unexposed), you don't get gray. Since you got the paper from a fellow member here, chances are the paper is not bad. But you might have a bad safelight. One way to rule out the safelight, is to just develop a print in the dark. If it's still gray, it wasn't the safelight (if the safelight was turned off).

Pfiltz

22-Nov-2012, 06:37

UPDATE: Thanks everyone.

It was the chemistry all along. New batch of developer, and it developed out nicely. Now to play with these new filters when they arrive

Have a great Turkey Day ! :)

Brian Ellis

22-Nov-2012, 07:37

The big advantage of VC papers isn't so much that you only need one box for different contrasts, it's the ability to dodge and burn different parts of the image at diffferent contrasts. E.g. when you are burning in a light area that's adjacent to a dark area it's a huge help to be able to do so with a lower contrast filter than you used to make the base print. I'd never want to give up that ability, to me it's an essential tool in making a fine print.

Bill Burk

22-Nov-2012, 09:59

UPDATE: Thanks everyone.

It was the chemistry all along. New batch of developer, and it developed out nicely. Now to play with these new filters when they arrive

Have a great Turkey Day ! :)

You too! Great news.

Next step I recommend for you is to look at what Gene Nocon says about "f-stop printing". You were working in full stops when you changed the f/stop on the lens. But I wasn't sure if you knew to make test strip time series in terms of "f-stops". (Instead of equal time changes 5, 10, 15, 20 seconds use a series like 5, 10, 20, 40). Gene refines the idea and explains it clearly.

tgtaylor

22-Nov-2012, 10:28

Footnote: I think I understand what these contrast filters may do, but how will they help getting the whites in a negative, white on paper?

Any advice?

Yes - I'll chime in with mine:

1. First step would be to determine the correct overall exposure time. Then, without changing the time, make work prints at grade 2 and grade 3 (I always start at grade 2) and after they are dry look at the whites. Which one do you like the best? You have then found the grade to print that negative at.

2. Instead of 5 second intervals I'd consider 3 second intervals - you'll be closer to the actual time then.

3. If you want a good darkroom printing procedure to start with, get the Fred Picker video. It is or was available recently at Calumet: http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/product/calumet_black_white_film_photography_3_digitally_remastered_fred_picker_videos_on_1_dvd/ce9940

Thomas

Pfiltz

22-Nov-2012, 17:27

I'll try to read up some on gene nocon. I found this interesting.

http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=xoAiBNSpg6Y&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxoAiBNSpg6Y

E. von Hoegh

26-Nov-2012, 08:57

It is difficult to do so...
Adding, changing, or removing filters can cause print requests that are still queued to be canceled. This is because the print service evaluates all print requests still queued to see which are affected by the filter change. Requests that are no longer printable, because a filter has been removed or changed, are canceled (with notifications sent to the users who submitted them)

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Pfiltz

26-Nov-2012, 11:02