The value of Rare lenses

[IanG]

How do you determine the value of a rare lens ?

Maybe that's easier when there are others for sale but what about a lens so rare no-one else seems to have one and it's not listed anywhere by the manufacturer.

That's the dilemma I have with a Zeiss lens at the moment, in fact I want to use it (and will) but ultimately it might be worth far more to a collector.

Ian

[Steve Goldstein]

Not answering your question, but Galli probably has two...

[goamules]

It's very difficult to gauge the value of uncommon items in already specialized niche markets. A very popular, cult item is usually worth more than an unknown, but rare item. What causes value? Demand. Examples:

- A son of a studio photographer has a Darlot Puyo. They were made for only a few years, in small numbers. She finally sells it after lowering the price to $500.
- A daughter of a studio photographer has a Dallmeyer 3B. It is not rare, having been made for 66 years in the thousands. She sells it to one of the many, many people clammering for it for $1800.
- A man out west has a strand of the most rare barbwire ever made. No one else knows that it's so rare, so he cannot sell it.

The question is; how many people want or collect the type of Zeiss lens that you have? I've got a bunch of rare lenses, some made only for a few years, of excellent quality and historic value. But they are not worth as much as some very common lenses right now.

[genotypewriter]

Demand and desirability are different things. E.g. the Schneider XXL lenses.

Also, there are some very interesting lenses floating around on ebay and with no one else selling one in this lifetime, they're practically one of a kind. But I ask myself whether the final images will show anything that's worth the extra or the trouble and most of the time the answer is no.

[Oren Grad]

The only way to know for sure is to do the equivalent of destructive testing: sell it. You can have the answer to your question or you can have the lens, but not both.

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

It is actually quite simple: it is the value that someone else is willing to pay for at a certain time. Unfortunately there is no better answer that I would know of, as there is no absolute statement possible.

So I agree with Oren on that one.

[Steve Smith]

it is the value that someone else is willing to pay for at a certain time.

For that to be true, everyone in the world who is potentially a buyer would have to be aware that it is for sale.


Steve.

[CCHarrison]

For that to be true, everyone in the world who is potentially a buyer would have to be aware that it is for sale.

Steve.

Supply and demand; factoring in, the time, place and circumstance of the sale. Ebay has had a tremendous impact on all collectible values because it has been able to reach a much greater audience than any other market.

Dan

[Dan Fromm]

Dan, I'm all for solidarity among Dans but I have to disagree a little with you.

eBay is a great place for selling low- and mid-level collectibles, but I think specialized auction houses like Westlicht are preferable for high-end items. My late friend Charlie Barringer discussed how his estate should best dispose of his treasures with many people, concluded that Westlicht was the right venue for his collection. I don't think that his Super-Q Gigantar and Barry Lyndon lens would have fetched as much on eBay as Westlicht got for them.

Cheers,

Dan

[rdenney]

If it is a lens you use, use it. It's not merely a collector's item. If you suspect it has collector value, then take good care of it while you use it. But use it if you want to.

If you don't want to use it, and you are not a collector, then sell it. Whether a specialized auction house or something like eBay is more appropriate depends on the piece, but that's a different question than the one you asked.

What something is "worth" is purely theoretical. The number that has any real practical meaning is what it will sell for, or what it will cost you to replace it should it be lost. You can never reach all potential buyers, but the number has to consider what effort you are willing to undertake (and at what cost in terms of effort, time, and money) to find the right potential buyers. What those outlets might be for something really collectible is also a different question. There is no substitute for experience for estimating what something might fetch in various selling venues. If you suspect you have something really valuable, it might be worth what it costs to have it appraised by someone with that level of experience.

Rick "whose 'collection' will someday decorate the inside of a dumpster" Denney

[IanG]

The question was a touch tongue in cheek as I've asked about on here in the past few days.

The lens in question is a Carl Zeiss Tessar 165mm (16.6cm) in a dial set Compur shutter made around 1926, that in itself wouldn't be rare, but this one is an f5.3 version, it's in no literature at all ncluding in Thiele's books. There's no doubt it's f5.3 apart from the aperture setting of f5.3, 5.6, 8. 11 etc the outside of the barrel is engraved f5.3 and the entry pupil of the front cells is the right diameter as well for f5.3.

So the dilemma is it's a rare unknown Zeiss lens, I will use it carefully, but then there must be collectors, if so where ?

Ian

[Dan Fromm]

Talk to these people: http://www.zeisshistorica.org/

[goamules]

OK, I'll bite, here is my appraisal:

- A Tessar is worth between $50 and $300 (for a huge one)
- A 165mm is small, I'd knock the top of the range down to $50-150
- Any Tessar faster than F4.5, add 20%, if slower subtract 20% You are now at $50 - $120
- Zeiss lenses do have collectors, add 20% to 100%. You are now back to $50-300.

My best guess is it would sell for $150 - $247.50 on Ebay, properly hyped with keywords like "rare."

[IanG]

OK, I'll bite, here is my appraisal:

- A Tessar is worth between $50 and $300 (for a huge one)
- A 165mm is small, I'd knock the top of the range down to $50-150
- Any Tessar faster than F4.5, add 20%, if slower subtract 20% You are now at $50 - $120
- Zeiss lenses do have collectors, add 20% to 100%. You are now back to $50-300.

My best guess is it would sell for $150 - $247.50 on Ebay, properly hyped with keywords like "rare."

I'd agree except it's rather rare and unknown so that adds anotherdimension.

I'll follow up Dan's link (thanks Dan).

Ian

[goamules]

I'd agree except it's rather rare and unknown so that adds anotherdimension.

I'll follow up Dan's link (thanks Dan).

Ian

That's where my 20-100% increase comes from. Otherwise, it would get no more than $120 on the average auction.

[Steven Tribe]

Ian, my guess is that was a special order for a specific camera maker. There were a lot of 9x12 and 10x15 camera makers in Germany/France, even after the Zeiss/Ikon consolidation. It is possible that camera maker was not happy about the performance of the standard Tessar at F4.5 and insisted the iris was set at F5.3 as a maximum. The optical design may be exactly the same as the F4.5. It's a bit like the various odd focal length version of the Cooke series around 4 - 6" which were supplied to various UK camera makers (best known is APeM) at the same time. The fact that it was originally on a "folder" will not contribute to a premium value!

[CCHarrison]

Dan, I'm all for solidarity among Dans but I have to disagree a little with you.


And in turn, I need to disagree with you a little :)

Many North American based collectors, including myself, shy away from using a foreign auction house like Westlicht as both seller and buyer*. While they may sometimes get more money for high end items, thats not always the case. Additionally, many buyers, like me, dont like dealing with huge buyers premiums, having to manage 3rd party, costly shipping and not being able to get better descriptions than is provided by Westlicht and similiar auction houses. To each his own, but I will take ebay in almost all circumstances as both buyer and seller - even high end items.

Hugs,

A fellow Dan


* the one item I bought from a Westlicht auction was advertised as a 1/4 plate ROC wood camera - pretty scarce size for these cameras. What showed up was a 4x5 ROC camera. Big mistake by them...I wasnt happy. All they had to do was carefully measure the GG. Rookie mistake

[goamules]

I agree with Dan/CC Harrison on Westlicht. Some super-rare, highly sought after items show up there, like the Leica O-type that went for millions. But a lot of more common, but still collectible lenses sell for less than E-bay, at least the base price. With all the buyer's premiums maybe the price is equal. But how much of that goes to the seller, and how much to the auction house?

[Hermes07]

There are rare lenses that sell for big money because they're niche without a lot of readily-available equivalents (very fast lenses, very long lenses, ultra wide-angle lenses) and there are those which sell for big money because they have a cult status (Heliars, Apo-Lanthars, Petzvals, P&Ss, e.t.c.)

If a lens is uncommon but appears to have nothing special to commend it to photographers, you're relying on a "collector" somewhere buying it purely on the basis that it's rare. While I'm sure they exist, my impression is that they're few and far between compared with photographers. I would think the chances of TWO of them both wanting a relatively unknown lens enough to enter a bidding war for it are low.

[Dan Fromm]

Garret, Dan, of course you're right about selling relatively pedestrian items through Westlicht. But Ian seems to believe that his prize isn't pedestrian. Charlie's Super-Q Gigantar, Barry Lyndon lens, and fast Mirotars (spelling?) aren't pedestrian.

Much of his collection was. The argument for giving Westlicht a crack at all of it came down to convenience and the value of the executrix' time. This isn't so important for Ian since he has just the one lens to sell. If I had it and wanted to cash it in, I'd put it on eBay and happily take what it brought. But Ian's, um, aspirations are higher than mine.

When my late mother-in-law died my wife and I helped her sister the executrix clean out the old lady's apartment. I had a large row with the sisters over how best to dispose of the old lady's trash. They won, we sold the stuff piecemeal for quite some time instead of for not all that much to a clearout specialist. We ended up earning very little for the estate per hour spent trying to sell and packing and shipping.

Hermes07, you're right, collectors are scarce and getting scarcer. Peter Koeln of Westlict took that line with Charlie, partly because it was true, partly, I'm sure, to lower expectations about how much he'd pay for it all.

Cheers,

Dan

[IanG]

Ian, my guess is that was a special order for a specific camera maker. There were a lot of 9x12 and 10x15 camera makers in Germany/France, even after the Zeiss/Ikon consolidation. It is possible that camera maker was not happy about the performance of the standard Tessar at F4.5 and insisted the iris was set at F5.3 as a maximum. The optical design may be exactly the same as the F4.5. It's a bit like the various odd focal length version of the Cooke series around 4 - 6" which were supplied to various UK camera makers (best known is APeM) at the same time. The fact that it was originally on a "folder" will not contribute to a premium value!

Steven, it's definitely an f5.3 lens not a restricted f4.5, Arne Croell suggested I check the diameter of the entrance pupil which is around 31/32mm - correct for an f5.3 lens, an f4.5 would be approx 37mm and an f6.3 26mmmm. There's no ring in the front of the lens so unlike other LF Tessars I have here, the glass is virtually to the edge of the barrell seated against a very narrow shoulder. Unlike my 165mm f6.3 Tessar the f5.3 version is f5.3 with the aperture fully opened and slight adjustmentmnt takes it to the f5.6 mark.

I agree about the British lenses like the TTH Cooke's where some Focal lenghts don't show up in TTH adverts etc, I have two and a Dallmeyeyer like that as well, however the odd focal lenght lenses are listed in the camera manufacturers adverts.

"It is possible that camera maker was not happy about the performance of the standard Tessar at F4.5"

I could understand CZJ making a Tessar lens faster than the f6.3 but perhaps with better definition than the f4.5 version, I've now found two more of these f5.3 165mm Tessars online both with serial numbers before WWI 1912/3 one in a Compound shutter so it's an early design.


But Ian seems to believe that his prize isn't pedestrian. . . . . . . . . . .

But Ian's, um, aspirations are higher than mine.

Dan

I guess my interest is mostly curiosity, it's a Tessar in very good condition which should be sharp and very useable but it's also an unusual and seemingly unknown version which might be of interest to a collector. I don't have plans to sell it though.

Ian