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el pescador
9-Nov-2012, 12:35
Hi everyone,
i'm returning to large format after quite a long absence, and i'm particularly drawn to the 6x17 format. I'm just wondering which is the best way to go as far as choosing a camera system for the format. I've thought about using a 6x17 back on a 4x5 camera, but understand there can be problems with certain focal length lenses, however there is the advantage of being able to use the 4x5 camera without the back. I have also looked at the Gaoersi 6x17 cameras, which seem cheaper to buy, but the cones for different focal length lenses seem quite expensive, and lastly there is the Shen Hao ptb 617 which seems to have the advantage of being able to use different lenses without problems or additional cost. I should add I have a number of lenses from when I was last involved in L.F (75mm, 150mm and 210mm) and other bits and pieces. I'm wondering wether any members of the forum use any of the above set ups or can give me their thoughts on what they think might be the best way to go

many thanks in advance

richardman
9-Nov-2012, 13:14
I am a big pano fan, since starting using the XPan in 2007. It's still my favorite format.

I tried a Fotoman 617 MkII for 3 months and now currently own and love the Shenhao PTB617. Look check out the Image Sharing forum under Landscapes, for example.

I tried the Fotoman precisely because of the slightly lower cost and the convenience factor. However, the lack of an easy to use ground glass option and the lack of rise, plus the large size of the lens cones kill it for me. I just hiked hours in the high desert, going up very steep climb with a pack with the Shenhao and 3 lens weighing about 13 lbs with no issue. You can't put more than one extra lens cone, if that, in any reasonable size pack with the Fotoman (or Goersi etc.)

Plus the rise is huge. You need it, and want it. I have not seriously used the other movement yet, but I suspect the tilt will come in handy.

Plus the ground glass. It's silly to shoot without seeing exactly what you are shooting.

The negatives - 1) you have to use a tripod, but you really should anyway. 2) it takes me about 3-5 minutes to set up. This is no different from using any other view camera though. I actually keep the camera un-folded in my bag to save time.

As for 4x5 and a 617 back vs. dedicated 617 camera. Personally, I only would want to shoot pano with the view camera (I suppose I can use rise and stitch two frames together vertically and get 10x17 or thereabout). Also 4x5 with back does not allow you to use lens longer than something like 210 or 240mm? With the Shenhao, I can go up to 300~310mm.

As for 5x7, it's a much bigger beast than the Shenhao so no contest there in that area.

Best of luck.

dave_whatever
9-Nov-2012, 13:17
I've got a 6x17 back for 4x5 which I use from time to time.

In terms of focal lengths at the long end its probably anything over 180mm that will cause problems, in that with say a 210mm lens you won't get the full width of 6x17 illuminated, more like about 6x14. Still this is a perfectly nice format! I have shot mine with a Fuji 300mmT with a flange distance of 189mm and you still get a nice shot out of it, even if its not the full 6x17.

At the short end you're limited by the minimum bellows length of the camera. Because the 6x17 has the film plane set back from the normal 4x5 position by about 45mm you actually need to be able to rack your camera down to about 50mm to be able to use a 90mm lens on a flat board. Very few cameras will let you use your 75mm lens on a 6x17 back unless you go down the route of recessed boards, assuming the lens covers 6x17.

With all this in mind the ideal cameras for these 6x17 backs are things like the Ebony RSW45, SW45 (and the shenhao copy) or a walker XL. With my 6x17 back on a RSW45 you can use any modern 90mm lens on a flat board without a problem.

The downside to this approach is the need to switch between the 6x17 viewing back and the film back, the fact the stock ground glass is invariably crap (budget for replacing it) and the fact that for wide lenses you'll need to improvise some kind of fresnel. Carrying the two parts of the 6x17 also adds significant bulk to your bag.

On the plus side, you can also shoot 4x5s with the same camera and lenses, and for minimal outlay if you already have a suitable 4x5 kit.

Another option to consider is a 5x7 (maybe a horiz-only chamonix, or walker 5x7 xl) with a canham or chinese 6x17 back.

C4D
9-Nov-2012, 13:24
If you think you will get in full swing panoramic 6x17 mode then definitely go straight to the dedicated 6x17 view camera for many obvious lenses. If you think you will only shoot panoramics here and there then the other options will be just fine.

Kuzano
9-Nov-2012, 22:15
Short of a dedicated 617 camera, or a dedicated 617 bellows camera, My panorama solution is a Fujica G690bl... no wide lenses--just the normal 100, shoot two or three frames, scan to digitize and stitch end to end. Any format 6X possible.... 6X9, 6X12, 6X17, 6X24.

Of course this is based on the acceptance of digitizing at some point in the process. You can shoot horizontally or vertically and stitch accordingly for chosen aspect ratio.

No interest in shooting anything over 6X12 pano back on a 4X5 camera. The 617 pano backs have to be moved back from the original GG position to get the full 17cm dimension (you knew that), which just makes the camera more unwieldy and larger. Not for me. I would choose dedicated, or do the 6X9 multiple captures, scan and stitch. With the state of stitching software, and proper use of a tripod and exposure setting, I would challenge anyone to show me where the frames change. I go for at least a 20% overlap and never use other than normal focal length lenses for the 6X9 format... that being 90-100MM.

And then comes the price consideration. $2000 to $4000 for a dedicated solution including camera and a lens and not much more equipment.
The 6X9 Solution:
A nice condition G690, G690bl, or last model interchangeable GL690, and a clean, well functioning 100mm lens... $450 to $700. Near mint... $1000.
A later GW690III with the fixed 90mm lens.... $700 to $900... near mint... $1000.

lbenac
10-Nov-2012, 00:12
Short of a dedicated 617 camera, or a dedicated 617 bellows camera, My panorama solution is a Fujica G690bl... no wide lenses--just the normal 100, shoot two or three frames, scan to digitize and stitch end to end. Any format 6X possible.... 6X9, 6X12, 6X17, 6X24.

That is a very good and light option.I have been thetering on the bring of a 6x17 camera but hate the price, having "one more camera" in the stable and carrying the weight. i.e. i would have to go out specifically to shoot the format. I am now using a 6x9 Kodak Medalist or a 6x7 Mamiya 7 and stich. I also sometime use a 6x6 Minolta Autocord with a panorama accessorie made by Minolta. It puts the rotating point where it should be and produce the best pano at the cost of using 6 shots for a long pano.
Of course I also shot two or three 4x5 and stich. At the end of the day while I would love a dedicated 6x17 to bring some discipline in my panos, I do not want to sacrifice the flexibility and shoot what I have handy and stich. Once you get used to it, you can manage even to shoot handheld.

Cheers,

Luc

Frank Petronio
10-Nov-2012, 01:00
Try a Noblex rotating lens camera. All a 6x17 does is crop the same wide angle shot one does with a regular large format camera. A swing lens camera actually describes space more effectively, without the kind of distortion you get from having a wide lens. Get the model with rise.

lbenac
10-Nov-2012, 01:23
Try a Noblex rotating lens camera. All a 6x17 does is crop the same wide angle shot one does with a regular large format camera. A swing lens camera actually describes space more effectively, without the kind of distortion you get from having a wide lens. Get the model with rise.

There is a good article on the Noblex here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/noblex_150ux.shtml

I think that it makes a good summary of the plus and minuses.

Cheers,

Luc

David A. Goldfarb
10-Nov-2012, 03:24
I agree with Frank on this one. I had a 6x17 back for a few years and decide there wasn't much advantage to it over a half-frame darkslide mask. A medium format Noblex is really different, and there are many situations in which the swing-lens perspective feels more natural. The negs fit in a 4x5" enlarger, and they are astonishingly sharp, because there is no falloff of resolution in the corners.

Lachlan 717
10-Nov-2012, 03:36
And then comes the price consideration. $2000 to $4000 for a dedicated solution including camera and a lens and not much more equipment.

$1k for a DaYi 617 and $250 for a 90mm lens is hardly $2000, let alone $4000.




The 6X9 Solution:
A nice condition G690, G690bl, or last model interchangeable GL690, and a clean, well functioning 100mm lens... $450 to $700. Near mint... $1000.
A later GW690III with the fixed 90mm lens.... $700 to $900... near mint... $1000.

What about the added cost of the scanner and the stitching software?

And, how do you shoot a pano with long exposures? Say, 15 second sunset afterglows? Or subjects with movement (clouds, water etc)?

There has been an Art Panoramics for under $1000 on Australian eBay lately. Beautiful 90mm lens as well.

The Shen Hao is the best of the dedicated panoramics I've used. I'm not interested in view finder shooting, so having a backpack with 4 lenses and the GG assembly is easily manageable, even in a carry-on bag. No way that I could do that with the Fuji/DaYi/Fotoman/Gaoersi cone system.

My light travel camera is the DaYi with my 72mm attached. Camera goes in checked luggage, lens in carry on.

andreios
10-Nov-2012, 03:49
I am also curious about the format but there is one more point that wasn't covered yet I think. There is of course the possibility of using half-darkslide with 5x7 - have tried that already, it's fine, BUT - if your aim si to travel or hike longer distances it is good to have a camera smaller than 5x7 AND mostly having the convenience of a roll film back and not lugging film holders. Imagine a multi-days trekking - how much space (and strength) you'd need for appropriate amount of filmholders (or changing tent) - and compare it with a couple of bricks of 120 rollfilm. Huge difference to me.

(In a similar line of thought I am now lusting for a backpackable 4x5 to be able to shoot 6x12 rollfilm negatives while hiking.)

timparkin
10-Nov-2012, 11:22
I've looked into this extensively and actually owned the Fuji GX617. In the end I realised that I wanted movements and a ground glass and worked out the weight of a Chamonix 4x5 with some darkslides or a 6x12 back and it worked out lighter, easier to use and I get to use movements too. Yes the 6x17 has a little bit more detail but you'd get more out of a great drum scan of 4x5 than from most dedicated 120 film scanners.

I now go out with a set of masks for the back of my 4x5 camera and shoot 4x5 film mostly (the 120 film back was too heavy). I can carry more dark slides than I can find good pictures in a day :-) If I were camping then just changing film in the evening is fine..

Tim

Kuzano
10-Nov-2012, 12:44
$1k for a DaYi 617 and $250 for a 90mm lens is hardly $2000, let alone $4000.




What about the added cost of the scanner and the stitching software?

And, how do you shoot a pano with long exposures? Say, 15 second sunset afterglows? Or subjects with movement (clouds, water etc)?

There has been an Art Panoramics for under $1000 on Australian eBay lately. Beautiful 90mm lens as well.

The Shen Hao is the best of the dedicated panoramics I've used. I'm not interested in view finder shooting, so having a backpack with 4 lenses and the GG assembly is easily manageable, even in a carry-on bag. No way that I could do that with the Fuji/DaYi/Fotoman/Gaoersi cone system.

My light travel camera is the DaYi with my 72mm attached. Camera goes in checked luggage, lens in carry on.

On the first point, my interpretation of a "dedicated" solution only includes cameras built to shoot specifically 617.

I consider view camera's with Pano backs not dedicated, and in fact a "kludge" solution. But that's a personal observation. In those cases the dedicated cameras and appropriate lenses, and ND or Center specific filters, more often come to the $2-4000 figure I posted. Yes, if you piece out the DAYI 617, the body is $1000, and I would submit that there is a complete kit on eBay right now at $2100, which considering shopping and putting together a kit is a much easier way to go. Why do so many devalue their time and effort on scratching around to put together kits. I consider my time as valuable, because I could be working on computers in my business at $85 per hour, and it's much easier for me to find computers to work on that dig around the internet for pieces to put together everything needed for certain photography solutions. However, so many do not factor in their time as a cost of sourcing kit pieces. Shame$$$ to overlook that.

The Shen Hao is a $900 camera new, and I just sold a "like new" Shen for 650. Let's use $700. Toyo 45A's can be found for $500 to $600 (no lens).The Shen 617 back is right at $600-Badgergraphics), and then add your $250 for a lens, correct filters, a loupe (not needed on my rangefinder), dark cloth - I don't use one on my Fuji, etc, equals VERY close to $2000. Again, these are NOT dedicated solutions, although they do offer more flexibility, which most people overlook in the search for 617 solutions. Again, I only consider the 4X5 as adequate for 6X12 roll film backs, while I would encourage 5X7 for 617, but then suffer the weight cost of this solution.

Regarding scanning, the EPSON V500 which can be purchase new for a one time cost of $200 or less, or a V700. For 120 roll film the V500 has the same scan characteristics as the V700.

However, In my experience, home scanning is a bigger cost in terms of valuing my time than I have found to be consistent with either V500/V700 scanners, which I have owned. It has worked out for me that having a roll of 120 professionally scanned (high resolution) for less than $20 works out to an acceptable per frame rate for digital files of much higher quality than I have ever gotten on a flatbed scanner. I don't do scanning any more, and am paying a bit over $2 each for those frames that I do ultimately have scanned.

Software... some of the best stitching software is free. The create section of Windows Live Photo gallery is in the free Window Live Photo Gallery module of the Windows live suite. Photoshop Elements, under $100 is a very capable stitch program. Stitching two or three images together is pretty much a "no brainer" with those programs. Stand alone stitch programs..... If you exhaust the Open Source or Free programs without finding the convoluted solution you may be requiring.... what??? $100 to $200.

And finally, my post was to simply open peoples minds up to the fact that shooting panos on 120 roll film does not absolutely preclude the use of a routine medium format camera. Granted movement requirements push one toward a view camera, but I have been very happy with a great many of the panos I have created by Stitching frames from my Fujica. And on the movements... does one really believe that movements can improve capture on a 6cm by 17cm piece of file? Just a question here, as I have never seen a situation where I think movements would improve an image on roll film in the viewfinder.

In fact, I have been happy with frames from my Fujifilm S3 Pro, one four frame pano which I just sold for $250. Printed at 10 x 33 inches and double matted with a 1/4 inch reveal. (recovered half the price of my S3 Pro and Nikon lens)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/kuzano/1800shomestead032Stitch_zpsdad5754e.jpg

Point here... there some ways to do pano with minimal expense.

Frank Petronio
10-Nov-2012, 18:51
Just a heads up, Jeff is a great guy to buy from, I will vouch:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?96151-6x12-camera-w-Mamiya-75mm-lens

Brian Vuillemenot
10-Nov-2012, 18:56
If you really want to get into the 6X17 format, I would highly recommend buying a dedicated camera, rather than stitching. It is much easier to get into the panoramic mindset that way, and there are many photographic situations where stiching won't work, such as long exposures, low light conditions, changing weather, moving subjects, etc. Dedicated 6X17 cameras aren't really that expensive; I sold my Fuji G617 (the older model with the fixed 105 mm lens) on the bay about two years ago for not much more than $1000, so if you are patient you can get a deal. (I now use a half darkslide on 8X10 for panoramas). If I was going to stitch, I would just get a new higher res digital SLR and aquire images to stitch that way; it would save you the hassle of having to develop and scan your film.

fotografueland
11-Nov-2012, 10:44
Brian is right in many ways, all the others are also right in their ways, a fellow photographer of mine told me that his best way to technical perfect panoramas was using a Nikon D800 and stitch a lot of images together, but the best way to get his composition right was with an old Linhof Technorama. He was using the tiny viewfinder on top of the camera. I think he is right. I have also been stitching digital but I'm using a 6x17 back on a 4x5 and get much better compositions this way, the drawback is the limits on focal lengths I can use on it (only 72-150mm) and also the limiting on shifting. Top technical quality and practical use/carrying means digital and stitching, good pictures means film in a dedicated panorama camera or a large format with panorama back.
So I got me a 5x7 and are getting a 6x17 back for it, and will put the 6x17 for 4x5 aside on a shelf together with many other things that do not get used. It might cost a bit but Panoramas sells fairly well.
My answer is: There is several ways to panoramas but nothing beats seeing the image on the ground glass before you take the picture, and the hard, heavy and sometimes expensive way to a good picture makes the picture better and more satisfying to make

Trond

timparkin
11-Nov-2012, 15:07
I've looked into this extensively and actually owned the Fuji GX617. In the end I realised that I wanted movements and a ground glass and worked out the weight of a Chamonix 4x5 with some darkslides or a 6x12 back and it worked out lighter, easier to use and I get to use movements too. Yes the 6x17 has a little bit more detail but you'd get more out of a great drum scan of 4x5 than from most dedicated 120 film scanners.

I now go out with a set of masks for the back of my 4x5 camera and shoot 4x5 film mostly (the 120 film back was too heavy). I can carry more dark slides than I can find good pictures in a day :-) If I were camping then just changing film in the evening is fine..

Tim

How many need more resolution than this

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/hac-extract.jpg

That's a 90" wide print at >200dpi

Yes a 6x17 could get 120" print but without movements and with a more limited set of lenses. And if you think you need something a bit bigger just get a camera with rear shift. I've done this for a commission and you get an approximately 9" wide image giving a potential 160" wide print. My actual print for the commission got blown up to 300" wide at 120dpi which looked very nice never the less.

And of course you get the choice of using 4x5, square and 6x12; swapping films between shots; pushing/pulling individual shots; Ground glass on every shot; movements etc. You know the score..

Tim

Lachlan 717
11-Nov-2012, 15:19
Yes a 6x17 could get 120" print but without movements and with a more limited set of lenses.
Tim

Actually, my Shen Hao has a bucketload of movements, both front and rear, and is "limited" to 72-400mm lens options.

That being said, the image you posted offers a pretty impressive example of what your option can deliver!

timparkin
11-Nov-2012, 15:30
Actually, my Shen Hao has a bucketload of movements, both front and rear, and is "limited" to 72-400mm lens options.

That being said, the image you posted offers a pretty impressive example of what your option can deliver!

Sorry - should have said a Rangefinder style 617. :-)

Bob Salomon
11-Nov-2012, 15:55
"Yes a 6x17 could get 120" print but without movements"

The Linhof 617 S III accepts a shift adapter that can be used with their 72, 90 and 110mm lenses.

ImSoNegative
14-Nov-2012, 22:17
i use my 5x7 and a modified dark slide, works like a charm

cgrab
15-Nov-2012, 03:26
I have used Fuji's G617 and GX617 for years. They can be handheld in a pinch, and the GX viewfinders are very precise and luminous. They are limited to a single respective four different focal lenghts (105 or 90, 105, 180 and 300 mm) and have no shift or close-up ability.
I have tried 6x17 adapters for 5x7 cameras on a 4x10 Canham and a 5x7 Magnola, Meopta's homage to the Linhof Technika, but I cannot (yet) say that I am totally happy. The Canham is difficult to fold and feels flimsy with large and heavy lenses, but you can use anything between 75mm and 800mm, horizontal format only, though. The Magnola is built very solidly, they used three screws wherever Linhof made do with only two, movements are limited, and at least mine feels like it should be set-up with a hammer. Bellows extension is sufficient for a Nikkor 600, but this and other large lenses need to have the rear element mounted separately from the rear. Both are tripod only. Using them takes much longer than the Fujis, but how much of this is due to my incompetence I cannot say.

For travel, the difference is in the required tripod, and in the degree of patience required by those you travel with.
There are some things you only can do with a view camera, like everything requiring tilt,shift, close-ups and using lenses other than those provided by Fuji.
There are other things at least I cannot do with a view camera, like shooting moving subjects, handheld and of course in a hurry, like when you arrive three minutes before sunset due to a traffic jam.

I have not used either the Linhof Technorama or the Horseman SW617, which in their latest iterations incoroprate shift and a darkslide, but still limit you to a few specific lenses. I also have not used the Shen-Hao view cameras. In both respects, I think that most of the above experiences would still apply.

Bob Salomon
15-Nov-2012, 03:33
"I have not used either the Linhof Technorama or the Horseman SW617, which in their latest iterations incoroprate shift and a darkslide, but still limit you to a few specific lenses. I also have not used the Shen-Hao view cameras. In both respects, I think that most of the above experiences would still apply."

Did Horseman make a 617? They made a 612.

Linhof has a total of 8 lenses for all of the T 617 S III; 72mm, 90mm, 110mm, 180mm and 250mm for any Linhof 617 S III, If the shift adapter is added to any 617 S III then 3 special versions of the 72, 90 and 110mm lenses are available.

cgrab
15-Nov-2012, 04:04
Did Horseman make a 617?

http://www.komamura.co.jp/e/SW617/index.html

Very nice, very expensive, The viewfinders are interchangable with the Fuji Gx617. Unfortunately, nothing else is.